jman 0 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Here's what I would like to do. I'm currently converting an S12, I want to make it as close as possible to the Russian Version. I'm going to refinish the the receiver and wanted to find out what the legalities are about removing some of the weapons markings. These are the specific ones I am talking about; 1. Read owners manual before operating. (This one I would definitely like to get rid of) 2. Saiga-12 (English marking not Russian) 3. Made in Russia by Izhmash (This one I could live with) 4. EAA Corp. - Importer Marking (Probably can't remove this one, but I thought I would ask anyway) If anyone knows the answer to this I would greatly appreciate it. I DEFINITELY don't not want to do anything that would be unlawful. Jman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 i've heard you can't remove ANY markings put on by the manufacturer or importer but i know guys who make good money getting rid of everything but 3 & 4 and also changing the selector markings to the cyrillic and they haven't been shut down by the feds. i'll check the batfe website and see what they have to say. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 In the case of the Saiga 12, you can't remove 'Saiga 12' because that is the US model designation. I do not have the actual legal reference, but the ATF requires that model numbers be in 'english' font, not chinese, arabic or ?cyrilic? russian. The model must be in 'English' letters. CAN7A 12 has a ?cyrillic? symbol for ?gamma? (7) which is not compatible with our importing/firearms software... therefore the rifle model is a Siaga no a CAN7A. You cannot remove a model number... so the English marking Saiga 12 must stay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 I've been wondering the same thing and would definately like to get rid of #1 Someone please post if they find out about that. If they went to all that trouble to put it on there though it's probly like a mattress tag or something and is not supposed to be removed. Or it could be just EAA's BS because they didn't want to field a bunch of phone calls. I know my 410 that was imported by Kalashnikov USA doesn't have that on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TapperMan 0 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 I'm not a lawyer, but here's my research on this: For Title 1 (non-NFA firearms), the following is unlawful: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt 18 USC Sec. 922 It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. For Title 2 (NFA) firearms: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/26C53.txt 26 USC Sec. 5861 Identification of firearms other than destructive devices Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. It shall be unlawful for any person - (g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or (h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or (i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter Other info: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14...27cfr178.92.htm - Non-NFA marking requirements http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14...7cfr179.102.htm - NFA marking requirements For non-NFA firearms, it unlawful to remove the serial number. No prohibition is made on the removal of other required markings. For NFA firearms, not only is the removal of the serial number prohibited, but also the removal of other required markings. I've included information about Title 2 firearms to contrast how the restrictions are worded. If it was the intent of Congress to make it unlawful to alter markings of Title 1 firearms other than the serial number, it seems that they would have spelled it out as they have done for Title 2 firearms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Thanks for doin that research TapperMan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wintermute76 0 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Just for reference, you can take off your matress tag It says it can't be removed by someone other than the consumer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 (edited) Thanks Tapperman, but I have to believe that there is more to this story. Reason... many C2SOT holders have welded up the '94' markings on HK 94s and re-stamped them as 'MP5'. This is extremely common.... With regards to non-NFA... if an individual removed all markings other than a serial number, how is the ATF to run a trace? The reason I ask is that different manufacturers can have the same serial numbers (eg 000943)... but it is the manufacturer's identification marks that specify enough information to trace. Now the links did provide me with food for thought. Maybe the manuf. and serial number are the only requirements because a single manufacturer cannot use the same serial number twice... even on different models. So maybe the model number is required when sold, but it is not illegal to remove? I'm not flaming and honestly am too lazy right now to do the appropriate research to find out. So some RKI out there... please elablorate. With regards to the 'Read Instruction Manual Before Using"... that a CYA legal stamping. It's there for the same reason all the BS warnings on consumer products exist.... you DEFINITELY can remove that if you want. Edited March 18, 2005 by RDSWriter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 i'm just worried about EA-gay marking on there..... putting ak74/ak100 folding trunnion bobscure markings...... reading instructions while good to do...is gone as soon as i'm done with stock modiying.... importer markings though...hmmm be sad to go to the work of even relocating them... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 I know that I have seen firearms at stores/shows that have had the markings moved... I don't know if it was legal though.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Just for reference, you can take off your matress tag It says it can't be removed by someone other than the consumer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well it sounds like the mattress tag was a goog anology then.The consumer can take it off if he wants. I wouldn't know I sleep on a waterbed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 From Tapperman's research, it sounds to me like you can remove everything except the serial number. It could be argued that removing the model number would make a firearm harder to identify, but this would only be true when there are many similar firerarms with different model numbers like MAK 90, SLR 95, AK101 etc. In the case of the S12, I would think that you can tell what it is without seeing "S12" stamped on it. And the importer marking? That doesn't seem too important Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jman 0 Posted March 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 I was thinking a little bit more about this today.. So I called a couple firearms engravers. I figured that they deal with this issue all the time. They both told me that they have engraved many firearms (including some semi-auto) in which they have removed every marking except the serial #. I guess this is pretty common. But then again, maybe the BATF just turns their head on these rifles since they are "SO CALLED" sporting rifles. A law is only unlawful if it's enforced! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) UPDATE 080205 Finally found a Tech Branch letter regarding this inquiry. For Title1 (Non-NFA) firearms - ANY markings can be removed except the serial number if the firearm is privately owned. There are no federal laws prohibiting the removal of all manufacturer, country/state/city, model number and importer information... just DON'T touch the serial number. Edited August 2, 2005 by RDSWriter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 UPDATE 080205 Finally found a Tech Branch letter regarding this inquiry. For Title1 (Non-NFA) firearms - ANY markings can be removed except the serial number if the firearm is privately owned. There are no federal laws prohibiting the removal of all manufacturer, country/state/city, model number and importer information... just DON'T touch the serial number. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What is the date on the Tech Branch letter ? This link is long,but has some good information. http://ftp.die.net/mirror/cryptome/atf080301.txt This link goes into detail of what markings they want on the firearm,and gives size and depth requirements of the stampings. Why would they recommend size and depth if anyone could eliminate them? They want the markings to not wear off for identification purposes. It also relates that US Customs looks at these markings to determine country of orgin. If law enforcement officials can not properly identify your weapon,I,m guessing they would take it from you for further investigation. They need more than a serial number to check to see if it is stolen. The information they need must be read from the firearm. They can't guess or assume what it is. Many probably don't even know what a Saiga is. They also are not going to take your word for what type of firearm it is. Sounds like a real GRAY AREA and Authority usually makes the decision as to the way they want it to be. unrelated: I saw an AR at a gun auction where the owner stamped FULL by the selector lever. Sounds like alot of trouble when the wrong Officer stops you and asks for an explanation. You'll probably hear,Sir I'm taking your weapon for investigation and testing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TapperMan 0 Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 Why would they recommend size and depth if anyone could eliminate them? For the same reason they require the tags on matresses. Congress went through the effort to specifically prohibit the removal, alteration or obliteration of serial numbers. If they wanted to prohibit the same things with regard to the other markings, they would have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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