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AK vs AR = Apples vs Oranges

 

 

I still don't understand why people compare these two platforms.

 

Meh, I don't really buy this argument anymore. A 1911 vs. an AK-47, that's apples to oranges. A Mossberg 500 vs. a Sako .338 Lapua, that's apples to oranges. But two assault rifles (assuming selective fire capability) that have been used against each other in almost every major international conflict that the US has been involved in for the past half a century...nope, that's pretty much apples to apples. The POU for both of these rifles is essentially the same. They both fall into the same class of firearm. They both pretty much get the same job done, although they may go about it differently.

 

...and they both rock :super:

 

Well..............at least we agree on that last part. They do both rock. I love both platforms and won't be giving up either, for exclusive use with the other.

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True. I consider ~200m to be mid-range effective distance for the 7.62x39. Within ~400m, (perhaps more with a good scope), I think the 7.62x39 is an extremely lethal cartridge. That effective range

There is no doubt either can be effective though there is a lot of debate on just how important ballistic gel results are since the human body even naked may not be subjected to simular enough results

You guys are forgetting one of the most important arguments against the 5.56 compared to the 7.62x39 or .308 for civilian use... 5.56 is boring. Everyone here is talking about the combat effectivene

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Big, heavy, and slow won't win any prizes in physics class, but it'll certainly get the job done. My most fearsome deer-slayer is a 54 caliber muzzleloader; shooting roundballs no less. On paper it's crap, but lordy how it puts them down.

 

I'd hunt with my .58 ML, but I'd feel sorry for the deer.

 

Besides, the .308 isn't really all that slow. Not much velocity difference between it and an M4...or an AR15, for that matter.

 

Aren't they great? I used to have a nice slow-twist .54 that shot roundballs like nobody's business. Still kicking myself for selling it. Currently my only smokepole is a southern mountain style .50 with one of those "compromise" 1:48 twist barrels. It kept burning patches until I lapped the bore, but now it throws roundball just fine, plus it REALLY packs a wallop with conicals.

 

Nothing beats the satisfying boom and cloud of smoke you get from a classic black power burning muzzleloader. Rate of fire isn't so hot compared to a Saiga, but it's still good shooting. :super:

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I once dropped my AK in the mud. Blew out the barrel and shot it, functioned flawlessly. I once took off the top cover of my AK and filled the receiver with a handfull of dirt, it fired flawlessly. When When I had an M4gery, not only would I do either of the above to it, but it was picky about ammunition. My Ak eats ANYTHING! I would guess that I could drive my crew cab diesel 4x4 pickup over my AK or its steel com block mags, and it would still work.

 

That's why I prefer the AK!

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In a famous bank shootout back in the '80's, an FBI agent was shot through the neck with an AR-15 round. It transferred so much energy that it knocked his vertebrae out of allignment, temporarily paralyzing him, yet the bullet hit nowhere close to his vertabrae.

 

Just give this a try: fill a milk jug all the way to the top with water, put on the cap, and shoot it with a .223. Watch it literally explode, and then talk to me :super:

 

It was not an AR-15 it was a Ruger Mini-14. At least one of the bank robbers was shot by the pistols in the head and face several times. I think both of them got shot in the face a few times. Yet the .223 rifle would cause severe crippling wounds with random shots in the arm and such. The .223 will take whatever part of you it hits out of commission. That's what it does.

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In a famous bank shootout back in the '80's, an FBI agent was shot through the neck with an AR-15 round. It transferred so much energy that it knocked his vertebrae out of allignment, temporarily paralyzing him, yet the bullet hit nowhere close to his vertabrae.

 

Just give this a try: fill a milk jug all the way to the top with water, put on the cap, and shoot it with a .223. Watch it literally explode, and then talk to me :super:

 

It was not an AR-15 it was a Ruger Mini-14. At least one of the bank robbers was shot by the pistols in the head and face several times. I think both of them got shot in the face a few times. Yet the .223 rifle would cause severe crippling wounds with random shots in the arm and such. The .223 will take whatever part of you it hits out of commission. That's what it does.

 

Read Kenneth W. Royce's (Boston T. Party - Gun Bible) analysis of that gunfight. Remember this gunfight was at relatively short range.

 

Clearly the 223 had a great advantage over the pistols used by the FBI but had those bad guys been using a 30cal full power round the results would have been much different. The 223 is the most over estimated round in history unless we are speaking of automatic fire, that is entirely a different subject. A 308 would have taken the agents arm off that was hit there and blown the agent hit in the neck head half off. The results from the x39 would have been better than the 223 just due to penetration of cover and likely both wounds would have been more quickly fatal. Granted the only sure thing here is that the 308 is far superior to the 223 in semi-auto operation while the x39 should have been at such short range. But then you can buy a Saiga in 308 so I dont see it as off topic.

 

While I may train more often with the x39 due to ammo costs if ever it becomes serious the 308 will be in use, that's one of the good things about Saigas.

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I know I'm going against the tide here, and I know I'm going to be lambasted, AND I know I'm going to be a repeat of what everyone has already said ad nauseam. BUT... I'm going to be the Devil's Advocate by saying that I personally prefer the AR-15 over the Kalashnikov platform.

 

The direct impingement system of the AR-15 may be dirtier compared to the gas piston of the AK, but I believe that the extra cleaning is a trade off for the AR's accuracy. The AK's gas piston is an extra moving part that creates more vibrations in the rifle upon firing, thus impacting accuracy slightly. Also, your typical AK lacks a recoil-reducing buffer that helps you get back on target faster after firing a shot. With a compensator AND a buffer, my AR-15 has barely any recoil or muzzle climb while my Saiga .223 had a bit more kick and had slower follow-up shots. As for the reliability of the AR-15 compared to the AK, I really think it depends on the quality of the parts in the AR-15. As long as you have a good bolt carrier, an extractor with no build-up, maintained mags, and a good buffer spring, an AR-15 should be more than reliable enough for the typical civilian shooter. And just as there's video evidence showing the reliability of an AK, there's also evidence of AR's faring well also:

 

 

Now for my take on the whole 5.56(.223) versus 7.62x39 debate. I'll concede that 7.62x39 soft points and hollow points deal greater injuries than the 5.56. However, the 5.56 has a higher velocity and has an edge in accuracy. Also, your typical FMJ 5.56 has repeatedly shown that it inflicts horrific wound cavities compared to your typical FMJ 7.62x39, which penetrates deeper and actually creates a smaller wound channel that is easier to treat and heal.

 

40052-MilitaryAssaultRifleWPcopy.jpg

 

You can also carry roughly twice as much 5.56 than 7.62x39 for the same weight, and the side that fires more shots is typically the winner in skirmishes. So for practicality's sake, I have to go with 5.56.

 

Even though I'll more than likely stick with my AR-15 in the event of a Zombocalypse, that doesn't mean I wouldn't pass up a traditional AK altogether. I like the idea of having a bigger round that can retain its killing potential after passing through barriers; something that AR-15's are not known for. The AK's ruggedness is legendary, its blend of wood and stamped steel makes it a beautiful weapon to look at (I personally prefer red stains), and perhaps most importantly of all, it's Russian.

 

RUSSIA STRONG.

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Stopping power boils down to two things - momentum and hydrostatic shock.

 

Momentum is related to kinetic energy but its completely linear. That's why bigger bullets hit harder than little bullets. The half sized bullet has to move twice as fast for equivalent momentum, which will make it look like it has a ton more kinetic energy, but not actually "hit" as hard as the bigger, slower bullet. M=mv.

 

Now, we have to get into collisions, most bullet collisions are inelastic, which means that unlike pool balls, which are the closest to pure elastic collisions, when a bullet strikes something, it does not just stop and impart all of its energy into another object, causing it to fly off, but it hits and sticks (preferrably inside) objects imparting it's momentive force in that object. Here's a simple example of the misnomer of KE being the measure of hitting power.

 

lead baseball - mass 1kg speed 10 m/s. KE 1/2m * v^2 = 50 momentum mv = 10

 

lead softball - mass 2kg speed 5 m/s. KE 1/2m * v^2 = 25 momentum mv = 10

 

one has double the kinetic energy making it look like it's the superior choice but both of these objects have the same "hitting power"

 

In the ballistics world, we have bullets that are double the mass of other bullets but rarely are they moving at half the speed or slower. Therefore, from a momentum, impulse and machanical standpoint, bigger bullets always hit harder.

 

Now onto pressure waves

 

After a round reaches twice the speed of sound, (over 2200 feet per second or so) it creates an air pressure wave in front of it commonly known as cavitation. As it strikes something, it rapidly slows through that 2200 fps barrier, the pressure wave destabilizes and creates a sonic boom inside of whatever it hits. This the hydrostatic shock and is why small, high speed bullets like the 223 and Five seveN can produce massive trauma when they strike.

 

Now, there's another aspect being terminal velocity where it affects ranges and such, but to make that simple, if whatever your intended range has a ballistic terminal velocity over 2200 fps it will produce the hydrostatic shock, but the laws of momentum still apply.

 

Therefore, according to momentum science,

 

.45 wins over 9mm

 

7.62x39 wins over .223 for ranges under 300m

 

.308 wins over all of the above

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There is no doubt either can be effective though there is a lot of debate on just how important ballistic gel results are since the human body even naked may not be subjected to simular enough results, body armor of course further complicates.

Its the best thing we have and lends itself well to documentation so its used.

 

Combat accuracy is a very odd bird. To simulate conditions would require pumping the shooter full of some rather nasty chemicals to simulate adrenaline and emotions and put targets in motion. I am firmly in the camp that under duress a shooter loses several MOA of accuracy and the resulting tunnel vision can make longer range shooting very difficult. Cover penetration is almost impossible to recreate and its doubtful we can do more than already has been done. Training is the only real advantage, as Royce correctly pointed out the bad guys were much better trained and prepared in Miami and the results bore that out. The two BGs averaged 750 rounds a week in practice and even without instructors it was productive. The FBI agents that survived were very lucky indeed. Of course the Feds totaly missed the point as usual and blamed it on the cal of pistols, does anyone buy that non-sense...

 

30cal has a lot of advantages and most disadvantages can be minimized. Sights changed, recoil lessened, weight adapted to etc. Whatever you do, whatever you use (as long as its a rifle), train as well as possible with the resources you have available.

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7.62x39mm for up to ~300m, and .308 beyond that.

 

 

 

that is my exact game plan..

 

 

300 or less, 7.62x39 AK, but more than 300, go the other way!

 

Other way? You mean a tactical retreat? A good option if possible.

 

What if you can not go the other way? What if everything you hold valuable is right there? What if its your duty to go forward and force the other guy to leave?

 

Or did I misunderstand?

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7.62x39mm for up to ~300m, and .308 beyond that.

 

 

 

that is my exact game plan..

 

 

300 or less, 7.62x39 AK, but more than 300, go the other way!

 

Other way? You mean a tactical retreat? A good option if possible.

 

What if you can not go the other way? What if everything you hold valuable is right there? What if its your duty to go forward and force the other guy to leave?

 

Or did I misunderstand?

 

Depending on the situation, a tactical retreat may be your best option. However, I took rangemaster's meaning when he said, "go the other way", to be: flank and get within 300m :killer:

Edited by post-apocalyptic
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going back to the main topic, which makes me feel completly off topic now.. The OP basically stated that he was frustrated with his AR in 5.56 and had a good deal on an AR in .308.. I wouldn't choose the AR for .308, but if you have good deal lined up, gonna say go for it, you want a .308, an AR is available, sounds fun. Hope you enjoy it!

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7.62x39mm for up to ~300m, and .308 beyond that.

 

 

 

that is my exact game plan..

 

 

300 or less, 7.62x39 AK, but more than 300, go the other way!

 

Other way? You mean a tactical retreat? A good option if possible.

 

What if you can not go the other way? What if everything you hold valuable is right there? What if its your duty to go forward and force the other guy to leave?

 

Or did I misunderstand?

 

Depending on the situation, a tactical retreat may be your best option. However, I took rangemaster's meaning when he said, "go the other way", to be: flank and get within 300m :killer:

 

Hmm, I got "get an AR."

But I like your suggestion better P-A.

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Notice that at about 55 seconds, even the operator mentions "it's getting sluggish". But it still functions. I'd say if you're good at keeping your weapon relatively clean, you would be fine with an AR. Me, I just like the larger cals better and am thinking I wont be quite so good at keeping my weapon clean in a SHtF situation, which is why I have what I have.

 

Good luck,

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One word, Nutnfancy.

 

Go look up AK vs AR on Youtube, Nutn' did a whole deal about this topic.

 

I watched his whole series of videos on the topic, and it was generally fair, (I like nutn's review/demo vids).. but I take issue with his choice of "AK" for this comparison. It was a Krebs rifle, (far from standard in every way), and therefore a good deal heavier than your "standard" AK 7.62x39 rifle.. which skewed his comparison a bit.

 

As I said though, his series of videos tackling this topic is pretty good and thorough overall.

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It only takes one malfunction to make it your last day on earth. Six years of cleaning and repairing M-16s taught me one thing, if ever someone made a good AK get it. They did and I have. Hell most people shoot like shit on a battle field anyway no need to sweat that MOA you lose for the confidence your rifle would continue to fire even if full of crap and on fire. But thats just me.

 

PS: None of this means I am right only that I trust my life to my weapon of choice.

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One word, Nutnfancy.

 

Go look up AK vs AR on Youtube, Nutn' did a whole deal about this topic.

 

I watched his whole series of videos on the topic, and it was generally fair, (I like nutn's review/demo vids).. but I take issue with his choice of "AK" for this comparison. It was a Krebs rifle, (far from standard in every way), and therefore a good deal heavier than your "standard" AK 7.62x39 rifle.. which skewed his comparison a bit.

 

As I said though, his series of videos tackling this topic is pretty good and thorough overall.

Yeah, I usually take his preferences with a grain of salt, but he is fair usually, and compared to me, has a shit ton more in experience. I think it really comes down to preferences. If you want an ergonomic and accurate weapon, go AR. If you want reliability and sheer power at close ranges, AK.

 

But I'm preaching to the choir here aren't I? lol.

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^ +1 :up:

 

DamagedWorld: what caliber do you favor in a pistol, if not the venerable .45 ACP?

 

off topic

 

i have a glock in 40S&W

 

i find it to be reasonably accurate

it is my understanding that the round has a decent punch

the round is also not excessive in recoil allowing me to stay on easily target while making follow up shots..

 

on topic

 

i guess i just feel that an AR OR AK can hit a man size target under 300m

SO with that said ill take the more powerful round...

if we view both as "combat rifles" the additional accuracy an AR provides doesnt really matter in "battle" because in battle a hit is a hit..and either round will likely stop someone..

i prefer the AK action.. i prefer the soviet rounds ability to penetrate light barriers.. and i prefer the overall durability of the platform..

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You guys are forgetting one of the most important arguments against the 5.56 compared to the 7.62x39 or .308 for civilian use... 5.56 is boring. Everyone here is talking about the combat effectiveness, wound channels, effective range, when the likelihood of needing your rifle for that situation at your home is extremely low, unless you are in the armed forces where you likely don't get a choice of rifle anyway. Nearly all of your use of your rifle is going to be for entertainment purposes, with practicing for a possible SHTF situation being a secondary motive.

 

That said, shooting a 5.56 with its superior long range accuracy and nearly no recoil so you can more easily make follow up shots is actually kinda dull after a while. Give me something in .30 cal that's trying to get out of my hands just a bit every time I shoot it - ohh and making stuff explode bigger when hit makes it all the more fun. :) And as a bonus, while I'm having all that fun I'm also staying ready for the extremely unlikely scenario of me needing to fight for my life or the lives of others, and since practicing was actually entertaining I have more practice than if I was using 5.56... since I'm less likely to say "ehhh, shooting again?"

 

And living in the suburbs I'm unlikely to get into a situation where I need to take someone down beyond 300m, or even beyond 100m for that matter. So one of the primary advantages of the 5.56 for someone like me is a moot point, though for you guys with a whole lot of open space around the 5.56 makes more sense. I actually expect a life or death situation for me to be within range of my laser sight at more like 40 feet. (I keep my laser sight set to be dead on at a distance from my bathroom down the hall to in the middle of my living room, the red dot is what I keep dialed in at 100m)

 

My opinion

Edited by stix213
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with practicing for a possible SHTF situation being a secondary motive.

 

 

some people consider that extremely unlikely while others consider that the inevitable.... if you fall into the second of those two groups.... a firearms ability to neutralize an enemy is paramount...

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7.62x39mm for up to ~300m, and .308 beyond that.

 

 

 

that is my exact game plan..

 

 

300 or less, 7.62x39 AK, but more than 300, go the other way!

 

 

Screw the AR vs. AK debate.

 

Be realistic guys, if shit gets sticky, get away from the honey pot!

Imarangemaster is correct. "Go the other way" is my SHTF strategy.

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Nailbomb: "...bolt carrier jumping track" ??

 

Tell us about it, Nail. Not familiar with this glitch. What did you do to fix it? What was the cause to begin with? I thought AKs always worked. Now I have to worry about things jumping the track. Was 'insufficient abuse' the cause??

 

Maybe should be another thread.

Bob

Sorry i didn't see this befor...

 

The problem was twofold... First my reciever was out of spec, second i needed to adjust my FCG. The reciever problem has been expirienced by parts kit builders in the past, and it only took a squeeze in a vice to fix. Then it was hanging up on my FCG and locking(I have the red star arms adjustable 2 stage). At first i thought this was a problem with the bolt carrier, so i polished the snot out of it and the rails. Then it started doing touble taps on me. :eek:

 

The second issue was really caused by my trigger reset being set too tight, and by polishing it allowed the gun to bypass it. loosening it up not only fixed the second issue, its gotten me a much better trigger feel.(its fucking awsome now)

 

As far as insufficient abuse being the cause? no, the cause was a minor issue with my stock gun, and not properly tuning it after installing a adjustable part with a wide variety of settings. Both of these issued were solved with trial and error tuning. If you don't shoot it you'll never know it will work, and you'll never get any better with it. These are tools made by imperfect people, and only through pushing them can we find the "weak link" in the system. Don't wait untill its the moment of truth to find out what the weak link is.

 

Neither of my problems were expensive, or difficult to fix, but both of them could have gotten me very dead.

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with practicing for a possible SHTF situation being a secondary motive.

 

 

some people consider that extremely unlikely while others consider that the inevitable.... if you fall into the second of those two groups.... a firearms ability to neutralize an enemy is paramount...

 

I have a feeling it wont be long before what we think has no relevance, only what is.

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