Saiga VS AR

[Bizzarolibe 5]

Hehe, this is some good stuff. One of the most productive "AR vs. AK" threads I've seen in a while.

 

Also Bigbump, I'm going to have to disagree with your physics a little bit. If a collision is completely inelastic (i.e., a bullet "sticking" in target), then it MUST have transferred all of its energy to the medium that it got stuck in. If an object has 1000 joules of KE before a collision and 0 afterwards, well, that energy had to have gone somewhere, i.e., the target.

 

As to whether or not momentum (m*v) is more important in determining the physiological effects than the transfer of kinetic energy (1/2*m*v^2), I'm not sure. You bring up a good point here. I could always ask my physics prof though, I'd be really interested to figure that out.

 

As for the likelyhood of a SHTF scenario in America on a national scale, I'm a little skeptical. I could definitly see it happening in the next 10 years on a local scale in some of the larger, corrupt cities (i.e., Chigaco), but something really messed up would have to happen to cause it on a national scale (i.e., gasoline suddently jumps to 20$ a gallon or something). Either way, it's always fun to be prepared.

 

And, let's not forget zombies. As a biology major (almost done--1 semester left!), I can attest to the possibility--neigh, the absolute likelyhood--of an imminent zombie incursion. All it takes is one mad scientist or deranged lab monkey injected with an experimental virus and boom--zombies.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Hehe, this is some good stuff. One of the most productive "AR vs. AK" threads I've seen in a while.

 

And, let's not forget zombies. As a biology major (almost done--1 semester left!), I can attest to the possibility--neigh, the absolute likelyhood--of an imminent zombie incursion. All it takes is one mad scientist or deranged lab monkey injected with an experimental virus and boom--zombies.

[bigsal 757]

 

 

And, let's not forget zombies. As a biology major (almost done--1 semester left!), I can attest to the possibility--neigh, the absolute likelyhood--of an imminent zombie incursion. All it takes is one mad scientist or deranged lab monkey injected with an experimental virus and boom--zombies.

 

 

 

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

There are days I would trade the dangers we face now for zombies. At least it would be easier to spot your enemy.

 

On a more serious note consider the following;

US debt hits the point very soon of becoming impossible to repay or keep interest payments current.

The dollar is dropped by OPEC. Overnight the demand for dollars plummets to depths we can hardly imagine. If the Fed continues spending at even half the current rate this is not only possible but required by OPEC members to protect the value of their resource.

 

Now when people cannot feed or house themselves on such a massive scale do you think the US immune to what has happened to every single country to travel this path? Shall we pretend this isnt only happening but even possibly happening by design?

 

Thats just one problem, how many are being brewed right this moment? Think Im going to break open that jug of 40 proof honey mead Ive been saving....makes pretending easier.

[sailor 6]

Rhodes 1968 ---

BINGO! Trouble is, damn few of the electorate seem to be aware, care or even know what is going on.

sailor

[imarangemaster 315]

Zombies aside, you can debate 5.56mm vs. 7.62x39mm till the cows come home. 5.56 from a 20 is good, and 7.62x39 works well from a 16". The 5.56 allows a quicker second shot, the 7.62 penetrates better, etc, etc,.

 

The main factor is: AN M16 SYSTEM CAN NOT TAKE HALF THE ABUSE OF THE AK. It is a great weapon, but NOT as reliable and bullet proof as the AK!

 

For those of you just joining, read what this guy did to a WASR AK trying to make it malfunction:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/79010/firearm_review_romanian_ak47_variant.html?cat=38

 

NO AR in the world could function after a fraction of that!!!!!

Edited November 22, 2009 by imarangemaster

[mav 459]

Hehe, this is some good stuff. One of the most productive "AR vs. AK" threads I've seen in a while.

 

And, let's not forget zombies. As a biology major (almost done--1 semester left!), I can attest to the possibility--neigh, the absolute likelyhood--of an imminent zombie incursion. All it takes is one mad scientist or deranged lab monkey injected with an experimental virus and boom--zombies.

 

 

Ahhh, You give me hope, it would be a shame to waste the energy (and money)I have put into my zombie preparedness.

[imarangemaster 315]

I rest my case: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=13290&st=960

 

I've killed a lot of boar 35 years ago, using .303, 44 mag carbine (marginal), and 30-06. I'd never use a 223, BUT THE AK WORKS WELL apparently.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

 

 

 

ha, the Saiga as a mid distance "battle rifle" is a great gun.. and am very happy with its accuracy at mid distances (roughly 100m and under)... the reason im trading my AR in 223 for an AR in 308 is two fold.. the first is im making out really well in the trade.. and two, while im confident in the ability of an AK platform rifle at lower distances, when it comes to a precise long range shooting im not really sure that a firearm with such loose tolerances would suit what im trying to do, and that is have an accurate longer range firearm..

 

but i wont be parting with my 7.62x39 Saiga anytime soon..

 

What loose tolerances? Headspace is pretty well within expected limits. When the bolt closes on a round the round is held pretty tight in the chamber. Once the round if fired, the bolt doesn't begin to rotate out of batter until a slight bit after the bullet leaves port in the barrel and probably exits the barrel by then. There are barrel flexes and vibratiions, but if the pressures are consistent, you will eventually find a certain "pressure" that does pretty good for accuracy. Only loose part is the action before and after round goes into battery.

[VladTepes 160]

 

 

 

ha, the Saiga as a mid distance "battle rifle" is a great gun.. and am very happy with its accuracy at mid distances (roughly 100m and under)... the reason im trading my AR in 223 for an AR in 308 is two fold.. the first is im making out really well in the trade.. and two, while im confident in the ability of an AK platform rifle at lower distances, when it comes to a precise long range shooting im not really sure that a firearm with such loose tolerances would suit what im trying to do, and that is have an accurate longer range firearm..

 

but i wont be parting with my 7.62x39 Saiga anytime soon..

 

What loose tolerances? Headspace is pretty well within expected limits. When the bolt closes on a round the round is held pretty tight in the chamber. Once the round if fired, the bolt doesn't begin to rotate out of batter until a slight bit after the bullet leaves port in the barrel and probably exits the barrel by then. There are barrel flexes and vibratiions, but if the pressures are consistent, you will eventually find a certain "pressure" that does pretty good for accuracy. Only loose part is the action before and after round goes into battery.

 

 

i would simply not consider the Saiga a firearm as of precise construction as say a higher end 308 bolt gun.... im simply saying when you get out to further distances i think there are better more precise firearms..

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I have yet to meet anyone happy with an AR-10 of any make although there may be someone. OTOH plenty of people are very happy with the Saiga 308. If you really must have a a 308 MBR thats not a Saiga at least consider a DSA FAL. You will be much happier with the results. If you do get an AR-10 be prepared to invest in only certain types of ammo. It isnt a matter of accuracy like on the Saiga its a matter of the thing working, its actually more temperamental than the AR-15 if you can imagine. Seriously you would be better off with a bolt rifle.

 

The curse of E. Stoner lives...

 

I have no problem with the S308, just takes a little attention to ammo to get under 2MOA is all.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Well, what kind of group would one expect a higher end .308 bolt gun to hold at 100 yards? What you can achieve at 100 yards pretty much will translate to what you can achieve at 300 and 400 yards as well.

[loki0629 55]

ha, the Saiga as a mid distance "battle rifle" is a great gun.. and am very happy with its accuracy at mid distances (roughly 100m and under)... the reason im trading my AR in 223 for an AR in 308 is two fold.. the first is im making out really well in the trade.. and two, while im confident in the ability of an AK platform rifle at lower distances, when it comes to a precise long range shooting im not really sure that a firearm with such loose tolerances would suit what im trying to do, and that is have an accurate longer range firearm..

 

100m and under is not mid distance, especially not for the .308 and not even for the 7.62x39. You could triple that distance and you probably won't outshoot the saiga 308's potential. Even the .223 will go out there and reach someone at 500m and probably with better predictability as it is a flatter shooting round.

 

If you're having accuracy issues at 100m and under I'm not sure switching platforms is going to resolve anything for you...but best of luck.

 

Personally, I'll buy an AR when I have money to burn.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

100m and under is not mid distance, especially not for the .308 and not even for the 7.62x39. You could triple that distance and you probably won't outshoot the saiga 308's potential. Even the .223 will go out there and reach someone at 500m and probably with better predictability as it is a flatter shooting round.

 

If you're having accuracy issues at 100m and under I'm not sure switching platforms is going to resolve anything for you...but best of luck...

 

 

True. I consider ~200m to be mid-range effective distance for the 7.62x39. Within ~400m, (perhaps more with a good scope), I think the 7.62x39 is an extremely lethal cartridge. That effective range, the cover penetration the cartridge offers.. along with the unquestioned reliability and durability of the AK platform is exactly what I want in a SHTF rifle.

 

I don't think the .223/5.56 cartridge has enough "knock-down" potential. To be even comparable, imo a 5.56 rifle should have a 20" barrel and a piston-driven gas system. The vast majority of popular 5.56 rifles, (mostly AR's), do not have either of these.

Edited November 24, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

100m is just a practice range not even close to max effective which depends on the rifleman more than the rifle. Too many people think all there is to shooting is getting a sight picture and yanking the trigger while resting on a sandbag or vice. Somehow sub-MOA groups are supposed to magically appear on paper.

 

Its not even close to that easy. Shooting a rifle well is difficult, it takes years of practice and INSTRUCTION. First off throw those supports away they are like training wheels on a tricycle. Sure you want to evaluate ammo or the like fine but it isnt building any skill.

 

Get instruction, Appleseed is effective and inexpensive clearly the best money ever spent on a rifle. Not only that the instruction is entirely oriented toward semi-automatic battle rifles even if people bring something else. Shooting the weapon as it was intended opens up a whole other view of what makes for a good rifle, suddenly just hitting the plate with every round becomes so much more important and gratifying. After all isnt that the real measure of a MBR, hitting the target under any conditions?

 

The most successful snipers in history used rifles not known for high accuracy, the man was the weapon not the rifle.

[imarangemaster 315]

I have heard good things about the appleseed project. I would like to go sometime next year.

 

Even with many hundreds of thousands of rounds from various platforms over the last 50 years, I don't consider myself a competent rifleman anymore, as I am too out of practice. I do feel confident with my Saiga (shooting 2-3 MOA regularly with iron sights and Russian ammo), that I would feel more than comfortable at 300 meters with man size target.

[VladTepes 160]

ha, the Saiga as a mid distance "battle rifle" is a great gun.. and am very happy with its accuracy at mid distances (roughly 100m and under)... the reason im trading my AR in 223 for an AR in 308 is two fold.. the first is im making out really well in the trade.. and two, while im confident in the ability of an AK platform rifle at lower distances, when it comes to a precise long range shooting im not really sure that a firearm with such loose tolerances would suit what im trying to do, and that is have an accurate longer range firearm..

 

100m and under is not mid distance, especially not for the .308 and not even for the 7.62x39. You could triple that distance and you probably won't outshoot the saiga 308's potential. Even the .223 will go out there and reach someone at 500m and probably with better predictability as it is a flatter shooting round.

 

If you're having accuracy issues at 100m and under I'm not sure switching platforms is going to resolve anything for you...but best of luck.

 

Personally, I'll buy an AR when I have money to burn.

 

 

1) i dont think i said anywhewre i was having accuracy issues.. im very happy with the Saiga..

2) if you consider 100m close range what do you consider handgun range... when i said mid distances i was referring to all firearms.. the 100m mark was not an indication of what i think the saiga is limited to.. it is just the max distance at the range i attend most frequently.. and again the Saiga is fine at 100m.. but i want something i can put a scope on and really shoot as precisely as possible.. could i do that with the Saiga? sure.. i could do it with my cx4 storm also.. i just dont find it to be my best option...

3) lastly.. im not switching platforms.. im keeping my Saiga.. sold my 556 AR (because as stated i didnt like the round OR the gun) i just didnt like the way it shot.. the Saiga for me is much more enjoyable..

 

and again as i stated.. i plan to get another AR.. just in 308... why? because for ME its probably the furthest reaching most powerful round i can afford to shoot.. that is also fairly common.. i prefer to stay away from firearms chambered in uncommon rounds..

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

100 meters is 109 yards. Is the range really in meters and not yards?

If you are staying away from uncommon rounds for the AR 10, then you wouldn't consider the 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington. You can get them in an AR 10 in that chambering. At 300 yards they nearly even with the .308 Winchester for ft/lb of energy, but at 400 yards and more the 6.5 bullets simply keep right on going and out perform the .308 in feet per second Ft/sec and down range energy ft/lb Funny to think of a thinner round, with less recoil actually out performing the .308. Also the accuracy of very good AR10 in those chamberings is phenominal. The 6.5 Grendel has a documented group of 1.198" 5 shot group, signed at the range. That was a 660 yard 5 shot group.

 

Personally, I'd try to find something in a piston action rifle as opposed to the gas impringment system of the original Stoner design.

[VladTepes 160]

100 meters is 109 yards. Is the range really in meters and not yards?

If you are staying away from uncommon rounds for the AR 10, then you wouldn't consider the 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington. You can get them in an AR 10 in that chambering. At 300 yards they nearly even with the .308 Winchester for ft/lb of energy, but at 400 yards and more the 6.5 bullets simply keep right on going and out perform the .308 in feet per second Ft/sec and down range energy ft/lb Funny to think of a thinner round, with less recoil actually out performing the .308. Also the accuracy of very good AR10 in those chamberings is phenominal. The 6.5 Grendel has a documented group of 1.198" 5 shot group, signed at the range. That was a 660 yard 5 shot group.

 

Personally, I'd try to find something in a piston action rifle as opposed to the gas impringment system of the original Stoner design.

 

 

what other uppers work with the ARs that are chambered in 308? like i know the 223 one has a LOT of various upper calibers it can swap to.. but not sure about the 308... i would get other setups in more exotic rounds providing i can always switch back to the more common 308...

[imarangemaster 315]

100 meters is 109.4 feet. 300 meters is 328.2 feet

[sailor 6]

imarangemaster - I believe you need to edit that last post, where you seem to have confused meters, yards and feet! Not razzing you, just a heads-up.

sailor

[imarangemaster 315]

Dah... Chaulk it up to the percocete I am on after shoulder surgery! Yep, I meant yards!

[havesterofsouls 1]

I have yet to meet anyone happy with an AR-10 of any make although there may be someone. OTOH plenty of people are very happy with the Saiga 308. If you really must have a a 308 MBR thats not a Saiga at least consider a DSA FAL. You will be much happier with the results. If you do get an AR-10 be prepared to invest in only certain types of ammo. It isnt a matter of accuracy like on the Saiga its a matter of the thing working, its actually more temperamental than the AR-15 if you can imagine. Seriously you would be better off with a bolt rifle.

 

The curse of E. Stoner lives...

 

I have no problem with the S308, just takes a little attention to ammo to get under 2MOA is all.

 

 

I have an AR-10T used to have 2 but sold the carbine version. I was completely happy with both of them they were very reliable I used a lot surplus ammo in my carbine mostly south african and australian, and never had any sort of failure. In my target version I only use 175gr match ammo or hunting ammo with decent ammo i get 3/4 moa groups from a rest and I have pushed it out to 900m with no problem I have to say out of all the rifles I have my AR10T is definatly my favorite

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Thank you for the reply and for your service!! Since it's an AR-10T you could also get the upper for the .260 Remington and fire that as well. .260 Remington has the advantages of smaller bullet (6.5mm) but simply a necked down .308 case. Look up the ballistics between the .308 and the .260 Remington. Try this site: http://www.remington...ion/Ballistics/ Pick .260 Remington and then .308 Winchester. If you look at the trajectorys, speed (fps) and ft/lb of energy, it does not take the 6.5 very long to surpass the .308 Winchester in those areas. When the bullet hits, it actually penetrates better because of the long dimensions of the 6.5 bullet.

 

This link: http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=PRA260RA*R308W1 (you'll have to copy and paste link) compares the 120 gr .260 Remington bullet to a 150 gr .308 Winchester bullet. At muzzle the .308 is better and at 100 yards it is only slightly better, but at 200 yards and beyond, the .260 bullet has more retained ft/lb of energy. Example: at 400 yards, the .260 (6.5mm) has 1340 fl/lb of energy compared to the .308 Winchester (7.62) of 1048 ft/lb of energy left. 500 yards is even more dramatic.

 

With your AR-10, the bolt and carrier would be the same, as the .260 has the same size brass as .308 except for the smaller neck size/bullet. So I would bet real money that you would not even have to change magazines to shoot the .260 Remington, just change out the barrel. I bought some .260 Remington bullets (a few) and they load and chamber fine in my .308 Savage. You just don't want to shoot them in the .308 as they are not the right size (undresized bullet) but probably would not be dangerous, but you would expand the .260 brass to .308 brass in doing so and the bullet would be horribly inaccurate.

 

I wonder why they never made a .260 (6.5mm) / .308 sabbot? That would let you handload with the .264" diameter bullet and use it in your .308" diameter barrel.

Edited December 5, 2009 by AKsarben

[havesterofsouls 1]

Thank you for the reply and for your service!! Since it's an AR-10T you could also get the upper for the .260 Remington and fire that as well. .260 Remington has the advantages of smaller bullet (6.5mm) but simply a necked down .308 case. Look up the ballistics between the .308 and the .260 Remington. Try this site: http://www.remington...ion/Ballistics/ Pick .260 Remington and then .308 Winchester. If you look at the trajectorys, speed (fps) and ft/lb of energy, it does not take the 6.5 very long to surpass the .308 Winchester in those areas. When the bullet hits, it actually penetrates better because of the long dimensions of the 6.5 bullet.

 

This link: http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=PRA260RA*R308W1 (you'll have to copy and paste link) compares the 120 gr .260 Remington bullet to a 150 gr .308 Winchester bullet. At muzzle the .308 is better and at 100 yards it is only slightly better, but at 200 yards and beyond, the .260 bullet has more retained ft/lb of energy. Example: at 400 yards, the .260 (6.5mm) has 1340 fl/lb of energy compared to the .308 Winchester (7.62) of 1048 ft/lb of energy left. 500 yards is even more dramatic.

 

With your AR-10, the bolt and carrier would be the same, as the .260 has the same size brass as .308 except for the smaller neck size/bullet. So I would bet real money that you would not even have to change magazines to shoot the .260 Remington, just change out the barrel. I bought some .260 Remington bullets (a few) and they load and chamber fine in my .308 Savage. You just don't want to shoot them in the .308 as they are not the right size (undresized bullet) but probably would not be dangerous, but you would expand the .260 brass to .308 brass in doing so and the bullet would be horribly inaccurate.

 

I wonder why they never made a .260 (6.5mm) / .308 sabbot? That would let you handload with the .264" diameter bullet and use it in your .308" diameter barrel.

 

Thanks for the info I looked on both federals page and remington and didn't see any match rounds for .260 rem do you know of any manufacturer that makes them I would like to compare a match .260rem to a match .308 win on price and performance right now I can get match 175gr .308 from usarmoment for 560.00 a 500rd case which is the best deal on match .308 I've found so far and it shoots pretty well too

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Might look here: http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=9331&categoryString=653***690***

 

.260 will never be competitive with .308 as far as factory ammo is concerned. Not a lot of it made. Hornady recently came out with the 6.5 Creedmoor, a more sharper shouldered .260 in their premium ammunition. It is close to the .260 and also DPMS has a upper and probably just a barrel in this caliber as well.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I have yet to meet anyone happy with an AR-10 of any make although there may be someone. OTOH plenty of people are very happy with the Saiga 308. If you really must have a a 308 MBR thats not a Saiga at least consider a DSA FAL. You will be much happier with the results. If you do get an AR-10 be prepared to invest in only certain types of ammo. It isnt a matter of accuracy like on the Saiga its a matter of the thing working, its actually more temperamental than the AR-15 if you can imagine. Seriously you would be better off with a bolt rifle.

 

The curse of E. Stoner lives...

 

I have no problem with the S308, just takes a little attention to ammo to get under 2MOA is all.

 

 

I have an AR-10T used to have 2 but sold the carbine version. I was completely happy with both of them they were very reliable I used a lot surplus ammo in my carbine mostly south african and australian, and never had any sort of failure. In my target version I only use 175gr match ammo or hunting ammo with decent ammo i get 3/4 moa groups from a rest and I have pushed it out to 900m with no problem I have to say out of all the rifles I have my AR10T is definatly my favorite

 

Glad you like them I just really wish I could say the same.

 

But since we are using anecdotes last Appleseed a guy fought his from start to finish finally gave up and pulled out another with even worse results. The rifles were dirty to start but after cleaning things didn't improve a lot. Both were Armalite one 16" one 20". Now he was using DAG surplus so didn't see ammo being the problem. Basically it was one nose down FTF after another.

 

The rifle just hasn't shown what would be expected from a near $2k MBR, I thought I wanted one a few months back thus my interest, that waned quickly. If a person must have a AR design they really should stick with a 223 with that new piston upper if possible. If they must have a 308 then a DSA FAL or Saiga if they are tight on money.

[my762buzz 141]

Now for my take on the whole 5.56(.223) versus 7.62x39 debate. I'll concede that 7.62x39 soft points and hollow points deal greater injuries than the 5.56. However, the 5.56 has a higher velocity and has an edge in accuracy. Also, your typical FMJ 5.56 has repeatedly shown that it inflicts horrific wound cavities compared to your typical FMJ 7.62x39, which penetrates deeper and actually creates a smaller wound channel that is easier to treat and heal.

 

 

Here is a fairer terminal effect comparison:

7.62x39 123 grain Hornady Vmax

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2009 by my762buzz

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Here is a fairer terminal effect comparison:

7.62x39 123 grain Hornady Vmax

that might be fair if you have a stockpile of thousends of hornady Vmax rounds... but then we havn't seen the hornady .223 either.

 

the simple fact is most of us want a cheap and easy stockpile of effective ammo.

[my762buzz 141]

but then we havn't seen the hornady .223 either.

 

the simple fact is most of us want a cheap and easy stockpile of effective ammo.

 

Now you have.

The 7.62x39 Vmax penetrated about 12 inches. It appears to have an 8 inch vertical by 10 inch horizontal central cross

axis.

 

Judging by the 12 inch line. Both .223 loads have a 6inch vertical by 9 inch horizontal central cross axis.

Hornady Tap 75 grain OTM TAP

 

compare to MK 262

 

Also the cheaper 5.56 M193 does not perform near as well as either Tap .223 or Mk 262

 

 

Because you happen to mention cheaper ammo to stock pile, here is a major relative example to compare to

to cheap fragmenting 5.56 M193. Wolf Military classic JHP 8M3 a fragmenting bullet.

I have seen 70-100 lb deer shot with this in a broad side behind the shoulder shot and it did not exit. It fragmented

and created a horrific wound track through to the opposite end just under the ribs. It fragments relatively similar to m193 but with a

much larger bullet.

 

Aside from that Hornady Vmax 0.66 a round http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=116209

Some of the M193 prices show as high as 0.50 a round.

A $0.16 +/- is not that bad for a better performing alternative for a stock pile of ammo.

 

 

 

 

So comparing apples to apples with relatively similar mechanistic bullets 7.62x39 produces more wounding

than .223/ 5.56.

Edited December 9, 2009 by my762buzz