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New guy, with two quick questions.


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Hello Saiga 12 Experts!

 

Please be easy on me if these have already been asked a million times.

 

Question 1) I was at a gunstore and while handling a Saiga 12 I asked the guy behind the counter if I could legally put the 10 round or higher cap mags in the completely factory shotgun and be legal. He said I could and that I didn't need to worry about all the compliance stuff since the shotgun already has 5 US made parts.

 

Is this TRUE or FALSE?? (I was under the impression I couldn't go buy a regular saiga 12 and slap a 10 round mag in it and be legal.)

 

 

 

Question 2) Is there any reason why I should, or shouldn't buy this Saiga 12? My link

 

For $450 shipped to my FFL I think that's about as good as it's going to get, but I don't know if there is anything wrong or jacked up about these saiga's.

 

Are these Saiga's good to go? Can I put the higher cap mags in this and be ok?

 

I appreciate all the friendly help!!!

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1) Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, it is illegal to use a "non sporting" magazine in a factory Saiga.

 

2) That is a factory Saiga. See (1)

 

 

Um, I'm going to have to call you on this one Nalioth. (Unless you are talking about a state law.) In fact, the 10 round magazines made in the USA, count as 3 U.S. parts, towards 922 compliance. I've read most of the laws, repeatedly, and I've never heard the term "Non sporting magazine" in any of the federal language.

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1) Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, it is illegal to use a "non sporting" magazine in a factory Saiga.

 

2) That is a factory Saiga. See (1)

 

 

Um, I'm going to have to call you on this one Nalioth. (Unless you are talking about a state law.) In fact, the 10 round magazines made in the USA, count as 3 U.S. parts, towards 922 compliance. I've read most of the laws, repeatedly, and I've never heard the term "Non sporting magazine" in any of the federal language.

Why would you call me on it? I specifically laid out my reasoning.

 

Let's look at it:

 

Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, <-- This means that the OP gave us 0 info on the Saiga at his local gun shop. If the Saiga has a muzzle device (thread protector for a choke, perhaps?), it won't matter if you use a US made magazine or not - there won't be enough US parts to make it legal.

 

 

It's really crappy to tell folks it's ok to just stick a US made mag in any old Saiga and it's legal, so please don't.

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Um, I'm going to have to call you on this one Nalioth. (Unless you are talking about a state law.) In fact, the 10 round magazines made in the USA, count as 3 U.S. parts, towards 922 compliance. I've read most of the laws, repeatedly, and I've never heard the term "Non sporting magazine" in any of the federal language.

 

Back when importation of the Saiga 12 started the Saiga 12s being imported did not have threaded barrels and the ATF said they had a total of 13 countable parts. 922r compliance requires that there are no more than 10 foreign made parts, so for these Saiga 12s without the threaded barrels, using just a U.S. made magazine (which counts as 3 parts) was sufficient to get 922r compliance. For about the last couple of years however, all the Saiga 12s being imported had threaded barrels, and the ATF says Saiga 12s with threaded barrels have 14 countable parts. For a Saiga 12 with a threaded barrel you can't use just a U.S. made magazine but must also replace at least one more part with a U.S. made part to achieve 922r compliance (for the fourth part most people will just use a U.S. made gas piston because it's a very easy part to swap in). Nalioth's point was that unless one knows whether the Saiga 12 in question has a threaded barrel or not, it is impossible to say whether using just a U.S. made magazine will give 922r compliance. Also, the Saiga 12 on auction that the OP linked to does have a threaded barrel, and so would definitely need another U.S. made countable part, in addition to using a U.S. made magazine, to achieve 922r compliance.

 

You won't find the phrase 'non-sporting magazine' in any federal firearms law because it isn't in any federal firearms law. That rifle magazines with a capacity over 10 rounds and shotgun magazines with a capacity over 5 rounds are non-sporting, is a ruling made by the ATF.

Edited by Frogfoot
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1) Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, it is illegal to use a "non sporting" magazine in a factory Saiga.

 

2) That is a factory Saiga. See (1)

 

 

Um, I'm going to have to call you on this one Nalioth. (Unless you are talking about a state law.) In fact, the 10 round magazines made in the USA, count as 3 U.S. parts, towards 922 compliance. I've read most of the laws, repeatedly, and I've never heard the term "Non sporting magazine" in any of the federal language.

 

Dude, dont screw with Nalioth about laws & technicalities, you wont win. I learned that the hard way a while ago...lol

 

I just try to sit back and learn from his teachings and other peoples mistakes nowadays...

Edited by RoughRider666
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I would be more than willing to digress on the subject if I'm wrong. Can you cite the pertinent law(s), or information that has lead you to this conclusion?

Frogfoot kindly spelled it all out in post #6.

 

Sorry, but I'm not gonna spoon feed you any info that you can find on just about every single gun forum out there today (including this one).

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I'm sorry, I'm not looking for peoples speculations found on gun forums, and I'm not trying to offend anyone. However, I am looking for a federal law that says something to the effect that putting a magazine capable of holding more than 5 rounds into an imported shotgun makes it non sporting, and thus unsuitable for importation, or manufacture, or a DD. I also can't see how it would have a negative effect on the parts count. In addition, I've just refreshed myself on 27 CFR 478.39, and I cannot find anything that would indicate that use of a magazine over 5 rounds (which traditionally would include mere possession of both items)would change the legal status of the gun into that of a destructive device, or illegal to import. After converting, buying and selling scads of S12's and reading the 5300.4 reg book without end, for years, I would be surprised if something like this slipped by me. But hey, anything is possible.

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Well this question comes up like a million times.

All the info (LAWS) are available to any one who wants to read it.

some are even posted here among various threads, if nalioth was wrong he would (or will) have been corrected by other forum members who share the same knowledge,

If you want a second interpretation, ask your FFL who is transfering the gun to you (which is more than likely with a gunbroker purchase)

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I should have stated, the saiga the gun dealer had for sale was a 19" model that was factory stock with no upgrades.

Then the dealer was bullshiting you about it having 5 U.S. made parts (or he just didn't know what the hell he was talking about). All the parts in a factory stock Saiga shotgun (including of course the Izhmash factory 5 round magazine that comes with it) are Russian made. If you swap the Russian 5 round magazine with a U.S. made magazine, then you have swapped in 3 U.S. made parts not 5. If this 19" Saiga 12 has a threaded barrel (you will see a thread protector screwed onto the threads at the end of the barrel if it does), then to be 922r compliant you will need to swap in one more U.S. made part if you want to use any U.S. made magazine with a capacity of over 5 rounds. The easiest parts to replace with a U.S. made version are the gas piston, forearm, or muzzle attachment (i.e. replace the thread protector with a U.S. made muzzle break or flash suppressor). If this Saiga 12 does not have a threaded barrel, then using just a U.S. made magazine is sufficient for 922r compliance.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I'm not looking for peoples speculations found on gun forums, and I'm not trying to offend anyone. However, I am looking for a federal law that says something to the effect that putting a magazine capable of holding more than 5 rounds into an imported shotgun makes it non sporting, and thus unsuitable for importation, or manufacture, or a DD. I also can't see how it would have a negative effect on the parts count. In addition, I've just refreshed myself on 27 CFR 478.39, and I cannot find anything that would indicate that use of a magazine over 5 rounds (which traditionally would include mere possession of both items)would change the legal status of the gun into that of a destructive device, or illegal to import. After converting, buying and selling scads of S12's and reading the 5300.4 reg book without end, for years, I would be surprised if something like this slipped by me. But hey, anything is possible.

 

I assume you know about the federal law passed in 1968 (i.e. the 1968 Gun Control Act, or more specifically Title 18 USC § 922r), which banned the importation of non-sporting firearms. This law states that non-sporting firearms cannot be imported, but in keeping with the tradition of inaness of federal firearms law this federal law does not specify what actually makes a firearm non-sporting, and so the ATF gets to decide (i.e. make up) what about a firearm makes it non-sporting. Up until the late 1980s the ATF considered pretty much any firearm that wasn't a title II firearm (machinegun, SBR, SBS, AOW, DD) to be sporting and therefore to be importable. However, starting in the late 1980s the ATF also started declaring that certain non-title II firearms were non-sporting (like the USAS 12 which was later also declared to be a DD). With the passage of the so-called Assault Weapons Ban in 1994 (which had nothing to do with assault weapons), the ATF used the features list specified in that law (i.e. pistol grip, folding stock, bayonet lug, detachable rifle magazine over 10 rounds in capacity, detachable shotgun magazine over 5 rounds in capacity, etc.) to determine what firearms were non-sporting, and even though the 1994 AWB sunsetted five years ago and is no longer federal law, the ATF continues to use the features list from it to establish which firearms are non-sporting and which are sporting and therefore okay to import. The ATF letter about part count and 922r compliance with regards to imported foreign made self-loading rifles and shotguns was posted on-line at Bardwell's NFA pages at the Computer Science Department at Carnegie Mellon University, but for some reason all Bardwell's webpages at Carnegie Mellon are now down. If I can find that ATF letter some place else I'll let you know.

Edited by Frogfoot
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I should have stated, the saiga the gun dealer had for sale was a 19" model that was factory stock with no upgrades.

 

Ok, so if a S-12 with a 22" barrel, (less desirable, imo), costs you ~$450 via your gunbroker link, how much is the other guy asking for the 19" barreled gun?

Edited by post-apocalyptic
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I should have stated, the saiga the gun dealer had for sale was a 19" model that was factory stock with no upgrades.

 

Ok, so if a S-12 with a 22" barrel, (less desirable, imo), costs you ~$450 via your gunbroker link, how much is the other guy asking for the 19" barreled gun?

 

 

The guy had the 19" saiga (it has the thread protector on the end) listed at $600 which I felt was pretty high.

 

If I bought this shotgun, it may get used for shooting trap, slugs at deer, hunting small game, and showing off to the guys. I don't compete in any shooting sports, and I already have a stubby 870 pump for the house.

 

If I understand this all correctly, if I buy the $450 shipped 22" saiga I can put the high cap mags in it and I'm good to go without any legal problems?

 

I appreciate all the help guys.

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If I understand this all correctly, if I buy the $450 shipped 22" saiga I can put the high cap mags in it and I'm good to go without any legal problems?

Please read everything that we've written here.

 

We've answered this question.

 

I will answer it one more time

 

The Saiga you have linked has a muzzle device ( a thread protector ).

 

This has been covered in post #5, post #6, and post #13.

 

Again, don't ask us stuff if you're not gonna read our responses.

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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

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Six Hundred Dollars!!!! I remember for a while we were getting S12's for $229, and selling them for $299!! This is before RAA. The name of the previous importer escapes me. Internationally, a NIB, Izmash select fire ak,in the grease, is around $150. It's a shame the premium we pay for the privilege of having these p.c. thought police up our asses.

 

If it weren't for stifling anti-capitalist, anti-free enterprise, anti-2nd amendment regulations, I'd estimate a surplus 1919a4 would cost about a hundred dollars. The current trend however, is paying a machinist $35/hr to chop them. So I get to pay for the guns to be built, and pay for the training and every single bullet and link, THEN I also get the privilege of paying to have them destroyed, when people are lining up and will to pay thousands of dollars for them. Dollars that could serve to offset the tax burden.

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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

 

 

And I'm still trying to understand the legal assertion that you can't put a 10 round mag in an imported gun.... I mean, I'm open minded because I have seen the BATFE put forward some pretty bizarre ideas, but no one seems to be able to cite code, so...

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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

 

It doesn't make a flip what he's selling.

 

You've been given the information several times in this thread that covers any Saiga you plan on buying. Use your head for more than a place for hair to grow, and quit asking us to do your thinking for you.

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Hello Saiga 12 Experts!

 

Please be easy on me if these have already been asked a million times.

 

Question 1) I was at a gunstore and while handling a Saiga 12 I asked the guy behind the counter if I could legally put the 10 round or higher cap mags in the completely factory shotgun and be legal. He said I could and that I didn't need to worry about all the compliance stuff since the shotgun already has 5 US made parts.

 

Is this TRUE or FALSE?? (I was under the impression I couldn't go buy a regular saiga 12 and slap a 10 round mag in it and be legal.)

 

 

 

Question 2) Is there any reason why I should, or shouldn't buy this Saiga 12? My link

 

For $450 shipped to my FFL I think that's about as good as it's going to get, but I don't know if there is anything wrong or jacked up about these saiga's.

 

Are these Saiga's good to go? Can I put the higher cap mags in this and be ok?

 

I appreciate all the friendly help!!!

 

 

...on the FEDERAL LEVEL:

Answer #1) if the barrel is threaded, then it would be illegal to simply put a hi-cap magazine on a sporting saiga shotgun. a US-made magazine counts as 3 parts. a threaded barreled shotgun has 14 (counted) imported parts. to comply with 922r, you must be down to 10 imported parts. you would have to replace 1 more part with a US-made part...gas piston is cheap and easy. a US-made forearms is another easy option. if the shotgun at the shop does not have a threaded barrel, then it would be legal to put a US-made hi-cap magazine without any further changes.

 

Answer #2) the price looks very very nice. according to the description, the gun was imported by RAA from germany (or at least has german markings). i really don't know what to tell you. from what i understand, my S-20 was originally destined from russia to south america, but was instead imported to the US by RAA after engravings were changed at the factory. if i were you, i would do some more research before you bought that gun on gunbroker. it might have a different number of gas ports or something to rain on your parade. might want to send a message to bob ash or tony rumore of tromix and see if they know of any differnces between german-imported and US-imported saigas. if the german config is the same as the US config, i say grab it asap!

 

on a LOCAL LEVEL:

your state, county, or city might have something against hi-capacity shotguns with removable magazines. there are a handful of states that don't think you should be able to defend yourself with your weapon of choice. personally, i will never live in those states or any other states that will bring me to a criminal or civil trial for defending myself against criminals. CASTLE DOCTRINE FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!

Edited by Modiano
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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

 

 

And I'm still trying to understand the legal assertion that you can't put a 10 round mag in an imported gun.... I mean, I'm open minded because I have seen the BATFE put forward some pretty bizarre ideas, but no one seems to be able to cite code, so...

 

 

I'm still trying to understand it all myself. To many experts saying it's legal and illegal.

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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

 

 

Use your head for more than a place for hair to grow, and quit asking us to do your thinking for you.

 

 

 

Honestly, what's the point of some a-hole comment like that? I'm not a Saiga geek and I don't pretend to be one. That's why I came here and asked honest quesitons. Why do guys like you feel the need to turn threads like this into an opportunity to bash someone who doesn't know as much about it as you do? The people I respect help the new guys instead of taking cheap shots at them.

 

Please go away and don't comment anymore on this topic. You can start your own topic somewhere and complain abuot new guys like me all you want, but I'm not interested in what you have to say regardless of who you think you are.

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nalioth,

There's no need for s-hole comments like that. I have read everything in this thread, but it's nto always very clear to understand. The saiga I have linked to shows a picture of a 19" model with the thread protector. He's actually selling the 22" barrel model. If you're just going to make petty little jabs please excuse yourself from the thread.

 

 

And I'm still trying to understand the legal assertion that you can't put a 10 round mag in an imported gun.... I mean, I'm open minded because I have seen the BATFE put forward some pretty bizarre ideas, but no one seems to be able to cite code, so...

 

 

I'm still trying to understand it all myself. To many experts saying it's legal and illegal.

 

 

Until I see some code law, I'm not buying it. When it comes to firearms, everyone's an expert. And if I did have a non converted S12, you can bet I would freely use every mag and drum I have, I will only capitulate so far to these socialist extremists, and if they want to test my resolve, and devotion to liberty, they are more than welcome to do so.

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oops, i missed something: if the salesman at the gunshop was correct in saying that the gun already has 5 US-made/compliance parts then that would bring the total imported parts count on a threaded barrel shotgun to 9 (14-5=9). at that point, you could add all the US-made parts you wanted as long as you don't go above 10 imported parts. if the gun has really been modified with US-made parts, then a US-made 10rd made would be legal on the federal level.

 

there's still alot of tricky 922r stuff to worry about. when the clerk says that "the gun already has 5 US-made parts", that sounds to me like the gun had once 14 parts and 5 were replaced, bringing the total imported part count to 9 (including the factory imported magazine which counts as 3 parts)

 

research the 922r section of this board and confirm with the dealer that the gun has had enough parts replaced with US-made parts.

 

i know this sounds like alot of crazy info, but 922r is the most important part of having a legal hi-cap saiga shotgun. check out the 922r section on this site

 

personally, i want to be able to shoot my saiga with any magazine i have, whether it be import or domestic. be doubly sure that your gun would be legal with factory imported magazines as well as US-made hi-cap magazines. there's nothing worse than being convicted as a "casual felon" who slipped up on one tiny little illegality

Edited by Modiano
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Thank you. This was a very clear answer to what I was asking about and exactly the kind of response I was hoping to read.

 

I'm glad to see that some people on this website can still be courteous and helpful to strangers. I appreciate it!

 

no problem. i wish the rest of the guys would go easy on newbies that less than 100+ postings. the search option is a great tool, but the results can be very overwhelming for newbies. sometimes a simple question is appropriate. welcome to the club!

 

+1027.gif

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there's nothing worse than being convicted as a "casual felon" who slipped up on one tiny little illegality

 

 

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid also! I wanted a semi 12gauge because of the reduced recoil and the fun factor. I looked at all the less expensive semi shotguns and it sound to me like the only one that functions 100% of the time that cna handle 2 3/4 & 3" shells is the saiga with the correct ammo of course.

 

Let me ask this in another way. What if I just limited myself to 5round mags, would any of this stuff be an issue at all or would it still be of concern?

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