thealmightysam 2 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Can I ask a stupid question? Assuming the muzzle thread protector adds that 14th part to cause all this trouble about magazines, couldn't one simply remove the thread protector in order to use high-cap mags? I know that's probably a dumb solution when the gas puck is so cheap, but still, just curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 there's nothing worse than being convicted as a "casual felon" who slipped up on one tiny little illegality That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid also! I wanted a semi 12gauge because of the reduced recoil and the fun factor. I looked at all the less expensive semi shotguns and it sound to me like the only one that functions 100% of the time that cna handle 2 3/4 & 3" shells is the saiga with the correct ammo of course. Let me ask this in another way. What if I just limited myself to 5round mags, would any of this stuff be an issue at all or would it still be of concern? No concern at all. Can I ask a stupid question? Assuming the muzzle thread protector adds that 14th part to cause all this trouble about magazines, couldn't one simply remove the thread protector in order to use high-cap mags? I know that's probably a dumb solution when the gas puck is so cheap, but still, just curious. You could easily do that, and drop your parts count back to 13. It's not good for the threads, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jtp 5 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) Not to interfere with a grand bout of arguing, but does this really matter as nobody seems to just add a mag. The guns seem to set off some addictive "Pimp my gak" thought process in all the owners. Just order up a gasfixer plug, and new tapco grip, and butt stock or whatever your going to order to "pimp the gak" anyway. From experience, and what I have read, as soon as the new owner gets it home, they order curb feelers, pin stripe, a blue dashboard crown, and fuzzy dice for the S12. Pimping an S12 appears to be an unstoppable force Edited November 10, 2009 by jtp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thealmightysam 2 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Pimping an S12 appears to be an unstoppable force Hear hear. I didn't have my S12 for more than a couple hours before cutting into it. Interestingly, the gentleman at the gunshow where I purchased (purveyor of a local gun shop, no less) sold me two 12-round Surefires with no mention of any legal issues (mine's a 14-part gun). No matter, as I was going to convert as soon as I got home, but it just goes to show, one cannot trust the gentlemen at gun shops for anything relating to the law. Best to be your own advocate and get brushed up on the laws pertaining to your weapons, especially with how thorny gun-related legal trouble can be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BronCobraJet 80 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) Not to interfere with a grand bout of arguing, but does this really matter as nobody seems to just add a mag. The guns seem to set off some addictive "Pimp my gak" thought process in all the owners. Just order up a gasfixer plug, and new tapco grip, and butt stock or whatever your going to order to "pimp the gak" anyway. From experience, and what I have read, as soon as the new owner gets it home, they order curb feelers, pin stripe, a blue dashboard crown, and fuzzy dice for the S12. Pimping an S12 appears to be an unstoppable force Well, yes, It DOES MATTER!. I was talking to a co-worker, that happened to have about the same guns that I do. however, he was not advised that when he bought his S-12, that he could be breaking the law by installing a higher capacity magazine on his shotgun than what it came with as purchased. My first S-12 purchase came with a dealer supplied 10 round mag as an extra. If I wouldn't have read these forums before I purchased my first S-12, I would have had NO CLUE about the legality of it. The average man on the street has absolutely NO IDEA. Dealers of the weapons involved, are setting people up to be prosecuted. The average schmo on the street is going to walk into a gun store and buy the gun, then maybe see a mag or get one with it and have absolutely no clue what is involved. Maybe RAAC should give a link to this website included with every gun they import. Ignorance of the law is one thing, but to be blindsided by dealers is quite another. Edited November 10, 2009 by BronCobraJet 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
teddy12b 0 Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm rethinking the idea of a saiga 12 now because of all this. If I ever did buy one I think I'd just stick with 5 rounds mags and avoid the legal issues. The 5 round mags seem more manageable, and it's not like it takes long to reload a new mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zaxon_182 44 Posted November 13, 2009 Report Share Posted November 13, 2009 Frogfoot, you hit the nail on the head, I would have posted some of the same material, but I couldn't find the section on the 5rd mag capacity. I knew that I read it before I converted mine, kudos to you for an air-tight post that should be a sticky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eli 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 1) Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, it is illegal to use a "non sporting" magazine in a factory Saiga. 2) That is a factory Saiga. See (1) Um, I'm going to have to call you on this one Nalioth. (Unless you are talking about a state law.) In fact, the 10 round magazines made in the USA, count as 3 U.S. parts, towards 922 compliance. I've read most of the laws, repeatedly, and I've never heard the term "Non sporting magazine" in any of the federal language. Why would you call me on it? I specifically laid out my reasoning. Let's look at it: Without seeing the Saiga or knowing more about it, <-- This means that the OP gave us 0 info on the Saiga at his local gun shop. If the Saiga has a muzzle device (thread protector for a choke, perhaps?), it won't matter if you use a US made magazine or not - there won't be enough US parts to make it legal. It's really crappy to tell folks it's ok to just stick a US made mag in any old Saiga and it's legal, so please don't. I'm new and really confused. I just bought a 12 new and unmodified and the FFL dealer only gave me a Surefire 10 no stock mag. It has the thread protector on the external threads of the barrel. So the FFL Dealer appears to have broken the law? Paced an order here the very day I picked it up and have 5 round mags on the way but they are imports. Can I even take the darned thing out to shot with the 10 round before they get here? What happens when they do am I legal then? Eli Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eli 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Can I ask a stupid question? Assuming the muzzle thread protector adds that 14th part to cause all this trouble about magazines, couldn't one simply remove the thread protector in order to use high-cap mags? I know that's probably a dumb solution when the gas puck is so cheap, but still, just curious. You could easily do that, and drop your parts count back to 13. It's not good for the threads, though. So if I take off the protector and screw on a US choke I'm good? Eli Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I'm new and really confused. I just bought a 12 new and unmodified and the FFL dealer only gave me a Surefire 10 no stock mag. It has the thread protector on the external threads of the barrel. So the FFL Dealer appears to have broken the law? Paced an order here the very day I picked it up and have 5 round mags on the way but they are imports. Can I even take the darned thing out to shot with the 10 round before they get here? What happens when they do am I legal then? Is the dealer breaking the law if he sells ammunition that is fired off in the buyer's back yard at New Years? ( "Reckless discharge of a firearm" is a violation in most municipalities) When you purchased your Saiga, was the magazine in it or loose in the box? 5 round mags are legal, or you can unscrew your muzzle cap and leave it at home when you take your 10 rounder to the range. It is up to you to know the laws. That's what our Saiga 922r Compliance / THE LAW subforum is for. Edited November 17, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eli 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I'm new and really confused. I just bought a 12 new and unmodified and the FFL dealer only gave me a Surefire 10 no stock mag. It has the thread protector on the external threads of the barrel. So the FFL Dealer appears to have broken the law? Paced an order here the very day I picked it up and have 5 round mags on the way but they are imports. Can I even take the darned thing out to shot with the 10 round before they get here? What happens when they do am I legal then? Is the dealer breaking the law if he sells ammunition that is fired off in the buyer's back yard at New Years? ( "Reckless discharge of a firearm" is a violation in most municipalities) When you purchased your Saiga, was the magazine in it or loose in the box? 5 round mags are legal, or you can unscrew your muzzle cap and leave it at home when you take your 10 rounder to the range. It is up to you to know the laws. That's what our Saiga 922r Compliance / THE LAW subforum is for. The answer to your ammo question is no. It's legal to use somewhere just not in your backyard. The difference if I understand you correctly is this gun AS SOLD isn't legal in the US. No 5 round mag was even included. No he just tossed it in the box. It's too big to fit in the box in the gun. Having never seen a mag for one of these things before I just took the mag out of the safe and loaded it. It's not a 10 it's a 12. Seems to me a decent dealer would try to protect and educate you. Not have you walking out of his shop with a gun you can't legally own. Nor can he legally sell it IMHO. Wonder if he'll sell me a full auto with the same regard for the law:) Eli Edited November 17, 2009 by eli Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I'm new and really confused. I just bought a 12 new and unmodified and the FFL dealer only gave me a Surefire 10 no stock mag. It has the thread protector on the external threads of the barrel. So the FFL Dealer appears to have broken the law? Placed an order here the very day I picked it up and have 5 round mags on the way but they are imports. Can I even take the darned thing out to shot with the 10 round before they get here? What happens when they do am I legal then? 922r compliance is a confusing subject, but it is the law (a ridiculous and utterly pointless law to be sure, but the law none the less), so it is just something us U.S. citizens have to deal with. Don't let it scare you away from the Saiga 12 or any other firearm. The simplest way to look at how 922r applies to the Saiga 12 is that if you have a stock Saiga 12 you can use any 5 round (or lesser capacity) magazine in it (irregardless of whether the magazines are foreign or U.S. made), and if you want to legally use a U.S. made magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds, then to maintain 922r compliance just remove the factory thread protector before you install this U.S. made (6 round or greater capacity) magazine. A few alternatives to maintaining 922r compliance other than by removing the factory thread protector are installing a U.S. made part in its place (i.e. U.S. made recoil brake or flash hider), replacing the stock gas piston with a U.S. made gas piston, or replacing the stock forearm with a U.S. made forearm. There are other parts that can be swapped out for a U.S. made version in order to maintain 922r compliance as well, and if you want more details you can find them by going through this forum's 922r compliance section ( http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=65 ). Seems to me a decent dealer would try to protect and educate you. Not have you walking out of his shop with a gun you can't legally own. Nor can he legally sell it IMHO. You are preaching to the choir, believe me. Myself, and I am sure many other members of this forum, have seen countless examples of firearms that were not 922r compliant at gunshows, at gunshops, on auction sites, and just about anywhere else you can find firearms for sale. The people selling the firearms either didn't know or didn't care that the firearms were not 922r compliant. All I can say is purchasing a firearm is just like purchasing anything else, 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware). Edited November 17, 2009 by Frogfoot 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent posting, Frogfoot. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent posting, Frogfoot. +1 I agree. Great job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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