BronCobraJet 80 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I am fixing to get flamed and that is fine. I hear the "buy American" the most from Union Fuckrtards that get $25.00 and hour or more plus insurance benefits and etc. to drop out and screw on fenders or some such each day. The unions have had a very large role in making America unproductive, over-priced, and so on. Look at the Ford Plant in S. America that has a number of companies all in the same buidling. The car seats are built there and roll onto thte Ford assembly line when needed, the dashboards and such are completed there (by yet another company) and they roll into the assembly line when needed. They build high quality cars for less because the unions are not there to holler "FOUL". enough of that I have owned my own business for over 30 years and the work ethic of the people has gone from excellent to shit in the last 15 years. My employees seem to feel I am getting rich off of them and need to fuck me to get even. Fact of the matter is that I have kept my business open for the last three years while losing money (because of them) and pay for it out of savings. Fuck them and fuck the unions. I sold the business and somebody else can argue with fucktards that don't want to work and have an entitlement attitude. The average small business is fucked by the government, the employees, and shyster customers. Screw it, I've had enough. Buy American, buy Italian, buy Union, buy non-Union. I dont' give a shit. I'm buying more guns and ammo because this may well blow up in the entitlement bunches face. Said to much. Hope I didn't offend too many but really don't give a shit about that either. I had a 30 year friend vote for Obama because he was a GM union worker who has retired and she didn't want him to lose his health plan. How's that hope and change working for ya? Who now owns GM? You want me to buy your products, byuild something worthwhile and take pride in it. Don't be more concerned about your benefits than my satisfaction as your customer. Want to work in America? How about showing a little old fashioned work ethic asshole. This is not pointed at anyone in particular! The assholes know who they are and I apologize to all the hard working individuals just trying to make ends meet. too much said. 1911 My brother is the hardest working man I know and he is a member of IBEW. Lots of union people work hard. Collective bargaining is a great way to get paid what you're worth... not what some corporate jack-ass says you're worth. I'm only going to get into this argument once. If it weren't for unions, the U.S. would just like any 3rd world country going today. While the robber barons fucked the shit out of people and made them work 16 hours a day at slave wages, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK GOT THEM OUT OF THAT? You should ALL thank your unions that you despise. Railroad Unions in particular got you your coveted 8 hour a day work week, while the railroad workers themselves work a 12 hour shift. UNIONS were soley responsible for the 40 hour work week. WTF is up with that? Your precious 40 hour work week - Guess Who? THE UNIONS! Healthcare, Fairness in employment Procedures, Fairness in Workplace disputes, SAFETY in the workplace, WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ORGINIZED THAT? Do you have any idea how backwards of a country this would be without Unions? Mininum Wage. Empleyee Safety, Healthcare, Profit sharing, GOD DAMN YOU ARE SOME STUPID motherfuckers if you don't join to protect your rights. What we have now didn't come about naturally because of the big hearted owners of the companies. Union participation is around 38% or so I believe now, so I don't see how they can create the havoc on the economy that you say. If you all want to work in a cesspool and have NO rights to protect yourselves, just keep bashing the unions and all they have given you, Not to mention a decent wage to be able to afford your precious guns, cars and houses. You people that have leeched off the system and are now about ready to retire, and now start to complain about it are the worst form of scum I have seen on the face of this earth. Almost all of the people that I know who are union people work as hard as they can as best as they can, because they don't want to become another Mexico. If the OP has problems with the people that work for him thinking that he is out to get them or fuck them somehow, then it is either a personality disorder, or he IS out to fuck them some how. Blame the Government on entitlement programs, not the unions. Or fire the "fucktard" lazy bastards. I don't have anything against you personally 1911, but when you group the entire country of hard working union people against you alone, well, maybe you need to look at how you are running your company and motivatig your employees. Or just being a real person and getting them to work FOR you, instead of AGAINST you. Are you an asshole? 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BronCobraJet 80 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I tried to post this before, I don't understand what the hell you 9 to 5'rs are whinng about. It was the railroad unions that got you your cushhy 9-5 jobs, along with your 40 hour work week. If it wasn't for the railroad unions you would be fucked. Also, railroad workers work a 12 hour shift, and we are away from home 36-40 hours at a time or more, so I don't see your complaints issue any merits. it was the Unions that got you Healthcare, It was the Unions that got you workplace safety, it was the Unions that got you Living wages. I can understand how some bosses would want to deny you these things to cut corners, But the unions were ther for all, members or not. The Unions aren't the downfall of the economy, since the only make up about 34% or so. Blame that on Govt intrusion and TAXES. In case you people that aren't union missed it, YOU ARE DUMB motherfuckers to cuss the unions and all they have granted you. Almost all of the union professionalls I've dealt with, realize that this would be a 3rd world country without their intervention. Big Corporations don't give you rights. There motto is the bottom line. They could give a shit less about you, always another warm body to roll into place You regular Americans out there should be shouting thanks of joy to the Unions. You don't realize what it took to get you where you are at. 1911, no offense, but if you couldn't get your workers to work for you, you were either a poor leader or an asshole. A recent tag line from a different site I frequent was basically "If half the people realize that the other 1/2 will take care of them, then they need to do nothing. If the other 1/2 realize that they are taking care of the first 1/2, then why should they even bother trying. That is the first and final downfall of any Country" I'm Un ion, and I respect that I'm able to live a decent life with decent wages. Almost all of the Union workers I know are proud of what they do and work hard at their jobs. We don't want to become a third world country like mexico or worse. Union jobs pay good enough to be able to afford a car, house, and maybe the guns and other toys. If you people keep giving up your rights, you will be nothing more than a 3rd world country. Just who do you think keeps all the money if none of it is redistributed to the workers? Wake up! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Yeah.. Unions might make life better for union workers in the short run.. but lets be honest, coming out of the evil "robber barons" and other industrialists we were one of the strongest financial companies in the world with one of the better lifestyles comparitive to the rest of the world.. Let's not forget "Robber Barons" lived luxorious lifestyles filled with services and possessions that they paid hard working americans for, increasing demand which by default increases wages and overall lifestyle regardless of the difference in income. With the fall of people like the robber barons and the rise of unions we have seen a fall in our over all finance, and once our GDP catches up with it the fall of overall quality of life. And it's not "our right" to have a well-paying easy job- that's just naive just as it's not "our right" to demand that employers lower their standards to it our needs... It's their company, and if someones willing to do whatever it takes to make it by, good on them, they are increasing productivity, GDP, and eventually lifestyle. The world is a harsh and competitive place, and as nice as the things that unions offer are, the offering actually cripples productivity.. We are still riding on a strong U.S. dollar based on productivity that doesn't take place anymore.. Once everything catches up our U.S. dollars won't mean crap.. what foreign country is going to want to trade with us when all we offer is more expensive product made by happier workers? Like they give a damn.. I know it sucks working hard long hours, but it's going to suck even more if the unions get their way and we wind up being a country no one wants to import to or deal with whatsoever.. And frankly, it isn't an employers obligation to provide health benefits for employees.. That's a privalege that naturaly should take place in a supply and demand system for skilled labor, but if you throw it at every worker your just crippling the system.. And one of the things that pisses me off the most is people talking about the huge difference between upper and lower class- if a rich as hell upper class elevates your lower class to a level above most countries.. THATS A GOOD THING.. quit bitching abot what the rich motherfucker has and be happy for what you have.. I'd rather be bottom of the barrel and pulling 40 hour weeks but living a decent lifestyle then be stuck in even the "middle" class of a third world country, and I don't care what the gap between me and the richest is, as long as my countries system benefits me more then the equivelant people in another country, thats a sucess. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) I tried to post this before, I don't understand what the hell you 9 to 5'rs are whinng about. It was the railroad unions that got you your cushhy 9-5 jobs, along with your 40 hour work week. If it wasn't for the railroad unions you would be fucked. I suggest you start your own business. You need to learn a few things that escape you right now. One is, the typical small business owner will put in no less than 60 hours per week and may very well take home LESS money at the end of the month than the whiney-ass employees do. Also, railroad workers work a 12 hour shift, and we are away from home 36-40 hours at a time or more, so I don't see your complaints issue any merits. it was the Unions that got you Healthcare, It was the Unions that got you workplace safety, it was the Unions that got you Living wages. I "got" myself a shit load better than that. I pay for my own health care. I'm perfectly safe on my own. Why should I be happy with a "living wage?" That sucks. It's mediocre as all hell. Fuck the "living wage." It's nowhere near good enough. I can understand how some bosses would want to deny you these things to cut corners, But the unions were ther for all, members or not. The Unions aren't the downfall of the economy, since the only make up about 34% or so. Yeah, and some employees are dead-wood parasites who do nothing but leach off the system. Unions are all about rewarding UNproductivity because that's how they boost their membership, and get the most dues money and power." Blame that on Govt intrusion and TAXES. In case you people that aren't union missed it, YOU ARE DUMB motherfuckers to cuss the unions and all they have granted you. That's a tough sell, since they have given me nothing and have offered me only mediocrity. You're just one of those who is content being TOLD what "good enough" is. Almost all of the union professionalls I've dealt with, realize that this would be a 3rd world country without their intervention. PURE DELUSION. Big Corporations don't give you rights. There motto is the bottom line. They could give a shit less about you, always another warm body to roll into place Actually, you're describing the union mentality. You regular Americans out there should be shouting thanks of joy to the Unions. No thanks. You don't realize what it took to get you where you are at. That's fucking mindless. I struck out on my own and retired at age 47. I know EXACTLY what it took to get me where I am and it wasn't some piece of shit union telling me what "good enough" is. 1911, no offense, but if you couldn't get your workers to work for you, you were either a poor leader or an asshole. Bron, that is about as stupid a fucking thing as I've heard in a while. If you were to turn around and take a look at the work force, you'd see that it is FILLED with dead wood parasites who think THEY'RE OWED simply because they exist. Any business owner who leaves for two weeks will return to find their business has been turned into something unrecognizable. Any productive and worthy employee will have no trouble commanding more money from another employer. There is precious little competition out there in the work force. However, all is not lost. As the unemployment rate rises and people start getting scared (and hungry) they'll learn a lesson or two about what it takes to stay employed. Soon enough, they'll be begging for someone to hire them and they'll be willing to be more productive in exchange for STAYING employed. A recent tag line from a different site I frequent was basically "If half the people realize that the other 1/2 will take care of them, then they need to do nothing. If the other 1/2 realize that they are taking care of the first 1/2, then why should they even bother trying. That is the first and final downfall of any Country" Right, which is exactly what's wrong with unions. They're the ones who want to be taken care of. You admitted it with your "look what unions got you" statement. Edited November 18, 2009 by Bounce12 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Just who do you think keeps all the money if none of it is redistributed to the workers? Wake up! Wake up, indeed! You're a fucking Marxist! That's one of the basic ideas of fucking COMMUNISM! Why should money simply be given to the workers beyond what they've earned? If the workers want more money, they need to WAKE THE FUCK UP AND BE MORE PRODUCTIVE! You may be a worker-bee that's happy being told what to do, who to vote for and what good enough is. That's fine, but others are higher achievers.People like me and 1911 are interested in creating more, producing more and having more for doing it. I am NOT going to bust my ass, provide a bunch of whiney-ass bitch parasites like you jobs and then have what I have earned REDISTRIBUTED to the workers simply because they have copped an attitude that they're owed. You need to go start your own business. I will bet you any amount of money that you can't start a business that hires 10 people and stays in business five years. The reason? You don't have the first clue about productivity. You have no idea what that is. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Many good points from people, thanks. No flames back, I appreciate everyone who took their time to discuss the issue. On the Union issues, I don't really have enough knowledge about the issue to have any fair opinion on it; all I know is that I have a cousin who is in an Elevator/Escalator union, he works his ass off 5 days a week for his family. I'm sure there are many people who are in unions and lazy... but that's pretty much any industry. Per entitlement, those assholes can go fuck themselves Seems like I'm hearing a lot of "I can't find American products." I don't really see how guys who will literally spend dozens of hours researching about converting their guns can't bother just flipping over a couple products to look at the place of manufacture, or emailing a company about a product's origin. When the UTG rail came out, I didn't just say "Oh boy, here's my $99." I emailed UTG and asked them where their rail was made, it took a whole 2 minutes to write the email; I guess I missed out on the instant gratification of buying something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lawson 6 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 when i was 25 my parents died & i inherited a convenience store & 2 apartment complexes. i ran them for 10 years & decided i didnt want to mess with it anymore & sold them. the reason i sold them is that it was more trouble dealing with & paying off the different government agencies than it was operating my business. i had several employees & they were usually great. i had the occasional asshole, but didnt keep them around long. to operate a little mom & pop store that sold gas, candy, cokes, cigarettes, & burritos, i had to be licensed by 5 different state agencies. if we would have sold beer that number would increase. the apartment side of things was also heavily regulated. if i had a renter that didnt pay or was destroying my property or being a nuisance to the neighbors, i couldnt kick them out, i had to send them a certified letter, then go pay the j.p $100 so they could set a court date for a week or so later, to tell the person they had a month to find another place to live. not to mention i had to compete with the government housing that charged $6/month rent. then at the end of the year you get to pay property tax which is basically splitting the profit for the year with the tax office, i decided after 10 years of this, like the guy with his woodworking business, fuck it. i was sick of working that hard so i could pay more taxes every year & have to answer to some sawed off lesbian from whatever state office was coming to see me that week. i have never had any experience with unions, but being a free market guy, i would throw myself into the "unions suck" category. i dont blame businesses for going overseas, our government needs to quit treating the producers of this country like a big pussy, seeing how bad they can fuck it & still keep them around. there are other places in this world that want to have them & are actively recruiting them. until the atmosphere here changes, they will keep leaving. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) I cannot remember the last time I dealt with a Chinese made product and thought it was anything but the bottom of the barrel. Well, for sure never the best. I can't remember comparing an American made product to a Chinese one and going with the Chinese one. Buy American, buy once. Chinese optic, the allen head screw stripped before I even started to tighten it. That metal was like butter and not a standardized size. I had to pry it off, scratching my gun. Never again on Chinese gun parts or optics. Edited November 18, 2009 by Twinsen 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I am fixing to get flamed and that is fine. I hear the "buy American" the most from Union Fuckrtards that get $25.00 and hour or more plus insurance benefits and etc. to drop out and screw on fenders or some such each day. The unions have had a very large role in making America unproductive, over-priced, and so on. Look at the Ford Plant in S. America that has a number of companies all in the same buidling. The car seats are built there and roll onto thte Ford assembly line when needed, the dashboards and such are completed there (by yet another company) and they roll into the assembly line when needed. They build high quality cars for less because the unions are not there to holler "FOUL". enough of that I have owned my own business for over 30 years and the work ethic of the people has gone from excellent to shit in the last 15 years. My employees seem to feel I am getting rich off of them and need to fuck me to get even. Fact of the matter is that I have kept my business open for the last three years while losing money (because of them) and pay for it out of savings. Fuck them and fuck the unions. I sold the business and somebody else can argue with fucktards that don't want to work and have an entitlement attitude. The average small business is fucked by the government, the employees, and shyster customers. Screw it, I've had enough. Buy American, buy Italian, buy Union, buy non-Union. I dont' give a shit. I'm buying more guns and ammo because this may well blow up in the entitlement bunches face. Said to much. Hope I didn't offend too many but really don't give a shit about that either. I had a 30 year friend vote for Obama because he was a GM union worker who has retired and she didn't want him to lose his health plan. How's that hope and change working for ya? Who now owns GM? You want me to buy your products, byuild something worthwhile and take pride in it. Don't be more concerned about your benefits than my satisfaction as your customer. Want to work in America? How about showing a little old fashioned work ethic asshole. This is not pointed at anyone in particular! The assholes know who they are and I apologize to all the hard working individuals just trying to make ends meet. too much said. 1911 My brother is the hardest working man I know and he is a member of IBEW. Lots of union people work hard. Collective bargaining is a great way to get paid what you're worth... not what some corporate jack-ass says you're worth. I'm only going to get into this argument once. If it weren't for unions, the U.S. would just like any 3rd world country going today. While the robber barons fucked the shit out of people and made them work 16 hours a day at slave wages, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK GOT THEM OUT OF THAT? You should ALL thank your unions that you despise. Railroad Unions in particular got you your coveted 8 hour a day work week, while the railroad workers themselves work a 12 hour shift. UNIONS were soley responsible for the 40 hour work week. WTF is up with that? Your precious 40 hour work week - Guess Who? THE UNIONS! Healthcare, Fairness in employment Procedures, Fairness in Workplace disputes, SAFETY in the workplace, WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ORGINIZED THAT? Do you have any idea how backwards of a country this would be without Unions? Mininum Wage. Empleyee Safety, Healthcare, Profit sharing, GOD DAMN YOU ARE SOME STUPID motherfuckers if you don't join to protect your rights. What we have now didn't come about naturally because of the big hearted owners of the companies. Union participation is around 38% or so I believe now, so I don't see how they can create the havoc on the economy that you say. If you all want to work in a cesspool and have NO rights to protect yourselves, just keep bashing the unions and all they have given you, Not to mention a decent wage to be able to afford your precious guns, cars and houses. You people that have leeched off the system and are now about ready to retire, and now start to complain about it are the worst form of scum I have seen on the face of this earth. Almost all of the people that I know who are union people work as hard as they can as best as they can, because they don't want to become another Mexico. If the OP has problems with the people that work for him thinking that he is out to get them or fuck them somehow, then it is either a personality disorder, or he IS out to fuck them some how. Blame the Government on entitlement programs, not the unions. Or fire the "fucktard" lazy bastards. I don't have anything against you personally 1911, but when you group the entire country of hard working union people against you alone, well, maybe you need to look at how you are running your company and motivatig your employees. Or just being a real person and getting them to work FOR you, instead of AGAINST you. Are you an asshole? Holy Shit, First Im agreeing with Vbrtmn and now BronCobraJet... The planets must be in alignment or something, this never happens! Im surprised at the level of corporate sympathy on this board, you guys are a bunch of brainwashed slugs if you think Unions aren't helping the little guy get ahead. I'm waiting for Azriel, Imarangemaster and GeorgiaPD to make comments about the PBA... curious to hear how cops feel about their unions. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GerryV 14 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) I know I should listen to my little voice telling me not to get involved in any type of internet debate with regards to unions, but hey why start being smart now. ***Warning - Extremely Long and Rambling Thought Stream*** ***Potential Delusions of Self-Importance*** ***Read at Your Own Risk*** First off, let me say that I whole heartedly agree that the unions of the past are directly responsible for much of what employees have today, however, to compare today's unions with the unions of the past is not an apples to apples comparison. Back in the early 20th century a worker (assuming someone not coming from wealth or privilege) had exactly two options with regards to employment...work the farm or go get a job in manufacturing/construction. Either way, you were going to end up doing back breaking work for little pay. During this period, there were very few jobs in the plant that required any type of specific skills other than a strong back or the ability to quickly assemble items. As the overall education level of the workforce was generally the same, some school with a little basic literacy, employees were seen as nothing other than a piece of equipment to be worked non-stop. Thus, the reason for organized labor. Now we fast forward to today, and one's employment options are much more broad than just having to choose between the farm or the plant. Modern employment choices range from back breaking menial work to sitting in an air conditioned cubicle glued to a monitor. In the early 20th century, the workforce only needed to provide their backs and sweat while today's workforce must provide a more educated employee. Thus, the education level of today's workforce is much more diverse than that of the workforce in the early 20th century. I've witnessed many instances with my manufacturing customers where an old high school drop-out was patiently explaining to a PHD engineer why his idea won't work. Ok, ok, enough with the history. What does this have to do with anything? By looking back through history and arriving at today, we quickly see, that as a whole, the progression of technology has made many manufacturing jobs simpler and safer to perform. We'll ignore the profit motives and other reasons for automation as that's a whole other conversation. Let's look at two workers, one working in Henry Ford's plant in the 1920's and one working in a Ford plant today. Both these workers perform the same task on the assembly line, mounting the right side wheels on the car. The worker from the 1920's would have to physically place each wheel on the hub and then tighten each individual bolt while keeping up with the line. Today's tire installer has the tires mounted by a robotic arm and then uses a special pneumatic wrench that tightens all five lug nuts at once. Neither job would be fun to do, but they have little in common other than the same output. Based upon the work performed today versus the work performed back in the 20th century, we've reached a point of diminishing returns with regards improving the workplace environment. There in lies the problem. If a job has been made simpler or less demanding, then by our very own sense of economic fairness, that job should pay less than the more demanding (either physical or mental) job. How many of your children would do twice the number of chores if they received the same allowance as their sibling who does half the number of chores? I want everyone to make as much money as possible, but at the end of the day, the pay has to be relative to the work performed. A union forklift driver should not be able to make six figures for moving finished product from the manufacturing line to the warehouse. This was the case at one of my customers before the union was busted. I know this for a fact as a friend showed me his W-2 when I asked him, "When are you going to get out of that warehouse and get a real job?" He made $115K that year. At the beginning of each year they would sit down and divide up the holidays. I thought they were doing this just so they would have plenty of notice in order to plan time with the families. Oh how wrong I was...they would divide up the holidays so that they could then take vacation on the holiday. They would then come in to work and receive triple time (regular pay + holiday pay + vacation pay). When I mentioned to my friend that this probably couldn't last forever and that he should plan for the future, he looked at me like I was on crack. Of course, two years later when the union was busted and they were all offered $12 an hour contract jobs none of them could understand what had happened. My friend had gotten so used to living this way that he ended up having to declare bankruptcy. To this day, he still bitches how he got screwed, never mind all the years he was screwing the company. So to wrap up all this self-indulgent rambling, I guess I'm just saying we can no longer compare the unions of the past with today's unions. Edited November 18, 2009 by GerryV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think some of what unions do is important and benevolent. However, like anything that gets too powerful, you end up with jerks that have too much money and power. Right now, I see 99% of unions as complication leading to lots and lots of waste and stagnation. Nothing gets done because the unions won't let it. Every great company in the past 40 years has done what they did because workers worked together and went beyond their job to create something. Look at the story of Virgin airlines, now imagine they hired union workers, and tell me how many DAYS it would have taken for them to go bankrupt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I am fixing to get flamed and that is fine. I hear the "buy American" the most from Union Fuckrtards that get $25.00 and hour or more plus insurance benefits and etc. to drop out and screw on fenders or some such each day. The unions have had a very large role in making America unproductive, over-priced, and so on. Look at the Ford Plant in S. America that has a number of companies all in the same buidling. The car seats are built there and roll onto thte Ford assembly line when needed, the dashboards and such are completed there (by yet another company) and they roll into the assembly line when needed. They build high quality cars for less because the unions are not there to holler "FOUL". enough of that I have owned my own business for over 30 years and the work ethic of the people has gone from excellent to shit in the last 15 years. My employees seem to feel I am getting rich off of them and need to fuck me to get even. Fact of the matter is that I have kept my business open for the last three years while losing money (because of them) and pay for it out of savings. Fuck them and fuck the unions. I sold the business and somebody else can argue with fucktards that don't want to work and have an entitlement attitude. The average small business is fucked by the government, the employees, and shyster customers. Screw it, I've had enough. Buy American, buy Italian, buy Union, buy non-Union. I dont' give a shit. I'm buying more guns and ammo because this may well blow up in the entitlement bunches face. Said to much. Hope I didn't offend too many but really don't give a shit about that either. I had a 30 year friend vote for Obama because he was a GM union worker who has retired and she didn't want him to lose his health plan. How's that hope and change working for ya? Who now owns GM? You want me to buy your products, byuild something worthwhile and take pride in it. Don't be more concerned about your benefits than my satisfaction as your customer. Want to work in America? How about showing a little old fashioned work ethic asshole. This is not pointed at anyone in particular! The assholes know who they are and I apologize to all the hard working individuals just trying to make ends meet. too much said. 1911 My brother is the hardest working man I know and he is a member of IBEW. Lots of union people work hard. Collective bargaining is a great way to get paid what you're worth... not what some corporate jack-ass says you're worth. I'm only going to get into this argument once. If it weren't for unions, the U.S. would just like any 3rd world country going today. While the robber barons fucked the shit out of people and made them work 16 hours a day at slave wages, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK GOT THEM OUT OF THAT? You should ALL thank your unions that you despise. Railroad Unions in particular got you your coveted 8 hour a day work week, while the railroad workers themselves work a 12 hour shift. UNIONS were soley responsible for the 40 hour work week. WTF is up with that? Your precious 40 hour work week - Guess Who? THE UNIONS! Healthcare, Fairness in employment Procedures, Fairness in Workplace disputes, SAFETY in the workplace, WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ORGINIZED THAT? Do you have any idea how backwards of a country this would be without Unions? Mininum Wage. Empleyee Safety, Healthcare, Profit sharing, GOD DAMN YOU ARE SOME STUPID motherfuckers if you don't join to protect your rights. What we have now didn't come about naturally because of the big hearted owners of the companies. Union participation is around 38% or so I believe now, so I don't see how they can create the havoc on the economy that you say. If you all want to work in a cesspool and have NO rights to protect yourselves, just keep bashing the unions and all they have given you, Not to mention a decent wage to be able to afford your precious guns, cars and houses. You people that have leeched off the system and are now about ready to retire, and now start to complain about it are the worst form of scum I have seen on the face of this earth. Almost all of the people that I know who are union people work as hard as they can as best as they can, because they don't want to become another Mexico. If the OP has problems with the people that work for him thinking that he is out to get them or fuck them somehow, then it is either a personality disorder, or he IS out to fuck them some how. Blame the Government on entitlement programs, not the unions. Or fire the "fucktard" lazy bastards. I don't have anything against you personally 1911, but when you group the entire country of hard working union people against you alone, well, maybe you need to look at how you are running your company and motivatig your employees. Or just being a real person and getting them to work FOR you, instead of AGAINST you. Are you an asshole? Holy Shit, First Im agreeing with Vbrtmn and now BronCobraJet... The planets must be in alignment or something, this never happens! Im surprised at the level of corporate sympathy on this board, you guys are a bunch of brainwashed slugs if you think Unions aren't helping the little guy get ahead. I'm waiting for Azriel, Imarangemaster and GeorgiaPD to make comments about the PBA... curious to hear how cops feel about their unions. Thanks for the flames guys. No BronCobraJet I am not an asshole. I would be willing to compare my charitable giving to yours anytime by gross or percentage. Sorry my friends, I have no time to argue with you as I am developing another business plan that will net me 10 times what my last one did with no employees and no inventory and no customers. Enjoy your Union time and your life as that is all it seems you will ever have. I wish you the best but I fear you have the worst in store for you. Your unrealistic expectations will only bring you anger and not hope. Sad really. Over and out, 1911 Bounce - remember you can lead a whore to culture but you can't give her class. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 We're off-topic now, but I'll chime in. Don't want to get in a huge debate, just stating my experience with the union I'm a member of (IBEW in Texas): The workers: Most are average workers. Some take pride in producing. Few take pride in not producing and are quickly spotted by managment. All are greatly effected by morale, they will fuck you if they think they are wronged. The workers mostly don't vote or vote Dem. The workers mostly have conservative view points but don't think that the GOP is on their side. The workers ARE NOT communists/marxists, FEW may be extremely liberal possibly socialists. The workers pay 5% of their gross straight-time wages and $25 a month to the union. The workers have family health insurance with no dental or optical and have a $500 deductible. The workers make about $26 an hour, apprentices with no experience start out at half that. The workers are generally better trained than their non-union counterparts. The local: The local preaches "Give them 8 for 8." The local preaches "When they make money, we make money." The local preaches about trying to be more productive than non-union counterparts or risk unemployment. The local is more active in reprimanding workers of behalf of companies than doing the opposite. The local is seen as weak, when compared to locals in other states. The "IO": The I.O. sends workers newsletters with a very biased viewpoint when discussing politics. The I.O. uses lobbyists to influence democrats. The I.O. has a voluntary P.A.C. fund and workers are asked if they want to donate when starting a new assignment. The employers: The employers are almost all voluntarily union and started union. The employers are able to hire or lay-off as workload dictates. The employers have gotten projects because of their ability to man very large jobs, thanks to a virtually unlimited workforce. The employers are mostly fair, but some in management are unnecessarily hostile and incompetent.(just like some workers) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Few take pride in not producing and are quickly spotted by managment. So management "spots" them. So what? They can't be fired for being worthless. All are greatly effected by morale, they will fuck you if they think they are wronged. Exactly. Now we have to define what makes them "THINK" they were wronged. If some democrat comes in and tells them management is making money on their backs, they will "THINK" they have been wronged. The fact is, they're free to go find another job, but they won't. The workers mostly don't vote or vote Dem. The workers mostly have conservative view points but don't think that the GOP is on their side. Why does anyone need a politician "ON THEIR SIDE?" I don't. I want the politicians OUT OF MY LIFE. The workers ARE NOT communists/marxists, FEW may be extremely liberal possibly socialists. Please define the difference? I have found that 100% of the people who talk about "redistribution of wealth" think they will actually GET SOMETHING for it. In their minds, they'll be on the receiving end of it. None of them offer to PAY INTO that scam. I'd venture to say that very few offer anything to charity either. No, they're all GIMME, GIMME, GIMME. I have no idea how people like that can look in the mirror and see a "man." How can one go through life with their hands in another man's pocket and look themselves in the mirror? If you think you're getting fucked by your boss, LEAVE! Go find a better job, or better yet, start your own business. They won't do that.... It's easier to sit back and whine about how their boss is fucking them. The workers pay 5% of their gross straight-time wages and $25 a month to the union. Exactly, and the more workers it takes to do the same job, the better it is for the union. That's why I say unions are all about UN-productivity. Every worker who thinks their boss is making money on their backs and who looks to politicians to protect them needs to go START a business. Entrepreneurs work for free. There is no pay check. There are nothing but bills and 24 hour days as they give their idea a shot. Well over 90% of the time, the business fails, too. Those that succeed often take more than 10 years of bust-ass effort to get off the ground. Then, with those that actually do succeed, the democrat politicians weigh in and tell the employees that the business owner is getting rich off their backs! It's fucking insane. 1911 is right. It's not worth hiring anyone anymore. I don't blame business for leaving. Products and businesses can be great, but it's the fucking people you can't deal with. I challenge all you union types to start your own business and actually CREATE a job for someone else. 95% of you won't be able to do it and stay in business, but you sure expect someone ELSE to do it for you don't you? Edited November 19, 2009 by Bounce12 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Few take pride in not producing and are quickly spotted by managment. So management "spots" them. So what? They can't be fired for being worthless. Yes they can, and they are. The last project I was on had about 6-8 people fired over the time it took to build. I'll give you an example of one incident. The owner of the company "walks the job" about once every two weeks or once a month. One time, during overtime hours, he saw three people sitting on a stack of sheetrock, an hour later they were fired and had their checks. They said that the were looking at the print that was on the pile of sheetrock and planing how to run a rack of conduit., didn't matter. One of them was an apprentice and was only doing what his journeyman told him to do, didn't matter. All are greatly effected by morale, they will fuck you if they think they are wronged. Exactly. Now we have to define what makes them "THINK" they were wronged. If some democrat comes in and tells them management is making money on their backs, they will "THINK" they have been wronged. The fact is, they're free to go find another job, but they won't. No, I'm talking about on-the-job situations. If a foreman is always cussing at his workers for no reason, he will get shitty production. If someone does get pissed enough, they do quit and take another job call, but not often. The workers mostly don't vote or vote Dem. The workers mostly have conservative view points but don't think that the GOP is on their side. Why does anyone need a politician "ON THEIR SIDE?" I don't. I want the politicians OUT OF MY LIFE. That's the way many see things, us vs them. I don't agree with it either and I can't see myself voting for a democrat. I want a VERY small government. The workers ARE NOT communists/marxists, FEW may be extremely liberal possibly socialists. Please define the difference? I have found that 100% of the people who talk about "redistribution of wealth" think they will actually GET SOMETHING for it. In their minds, they'll be on the receiving end of it. None of them offer to PAY INTO that scam. I'd venture to say that very few offer anything to charity either. No, they're all GIMME, GIMME, GIMME. I have no idea how people like that can look in the mirror and see a "man." How can one go through life with their hands in another man's pocket and look themselves in the mirror? If you think you're getting fucked by your boss, LEAVE! Go find a better job, or better yet, start your own business. They won't do that.... It's easier to sit back and whine about how their boss is fucking them. Basically, socialists don't believe in common ownership of the "means of production" and socialism doesn't rule out capitalism, though it would be highly regulated. Both redistrimute wealth and are horrendously bad, but to different degrees. I agree, most that push for redistribution of wealth think they will benefit from it. As far a whining goes, it's not like only union employees complain. When we work with non-union workers, they complain just as much. maybe it's because we are in the south, but I just don't thin we are the same as union workers on the other coasts. As a matter of fact, when we travel there to work, many of them dislike us southerners. Also, some do leave and we rarely work for one company for our whole career, or even longer than five years. We are not kept around if we are not needed, even if it is for a short period of time. The instant work load is light, there is a layoff. The workers pay 5% of their gross straight-time wages and $25 a month to the union. Exactly, and the more workers it takes to do the same job, the better it is for the union. That's why I say unions are all about UN-productivity. Every worker who thinks their boss is making money on their backs and who looks to politicians to protect them needs to go START a business. Entrepreneurs work for free. There is no pay check. There are nothing but bills and 24 hour days as they give their idea a shot. Well over 90% of the time, the business fails, too. Those that succeed often take more than 10 years of bust-ass effort to get off the ground. Then, with those that actually do succeed, the democrat politicians weigh in and tell the employees that the business owner is getting rich off their backs! It's fucking insane. 1911 is right. It's not worth hiring anyone anymore. I don't blame business for leaving. Products and businesses can be great, but it's the fucking people you can't deal with. I challenge all you union types to start your own business and actually CREATE a job for someone else. 95% of you won't be able to do it and stay in business, but you sure expect someone ELSE to do it for you don't you? The union preaches about production, if they want less production they have a funny way of showing it. Even when talking to officials or members privately, they push the idea that we have to be more productive if we expect to get paid more than non-union workers, not to say that all workers fit that description. You act as if the employer has no say in how many people he hires or who he chooses to keep. The employer bids a job based on X amount of workers. If he hires that amount and starts falling behind everyone feels the pressure. Workers will be scrutinized and may be fired for minor infractions. Get caught BSing for five minutes instead of working? Your probably fired, it doesn't matter that you were working the rest of the day or for the whole job. Perception is reality, they will assume that you regularly screw around for hours a week and there are plenty of workers at the hall to take your place. I'm sure it's hard work to start a business, no doubt. Few do it, union or non-union, and most would fail if they tried. That does not mean that they are bad people if they don't try to start a business and complain about a situation. If a situation is bad, one should feel free to complain. If the complaint is legit, the employer may want to address it. If not, the employee will likely catch flack for it. I agree with you about the absurdity of turning employee against employer, without either of the two no business is possible. Who are "union types"? Is that me? Are we all the same? I've met all different types of people who work for the union. Sure, I can say that some are alike in one fashion or the other, but that not all the same. I know I come off as a big pro-union guy when defending union workers, but that's not really the case. I don't believe that employers should be forced to "go union" and I would not shed one tear if my local shut down, I would still work. I've worked non-union before and it pays the bills. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me unless I pay them. Edited November 19, 2009 by bigj480 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 This thing is getting so "nested" that I can't tell what I'm responding to, but there are a few things in particular I want to comment on: So management "spots" them. So what? They can't be fired for being worthless. Yes they can, and they are. The last project I was on had about 6-8 people fired over the time it took to build. I'll give you an example of one incident. The owner of the company "walks the job" about once every two weeks or once a month. One time, during overtime hours, he saw three people sitting on a stack of sheetrock, an hour later they were fired and had their checks. They said that the were looking at the print that was on the pile of sheetrock and planing how to run a rack of conduit., didn't matter. One of them was an apprentice and was only doing what his journeyman told him to do, didn't matter. I'm not talking about workers who are stupid enough to get caught violating company policy. I'm talking about those who are smart enough to make it look like they're busy, but just don't manage to get anything done. They're not pulling the load in any meaningful way. They're the dead-wood types. As far a whining goes, it's not like only union employees complain. When we work with non-union workers, they complain just as much. I totally agree. The union preaches about production, if they want less production they have a funny way of showing it. IF they wanted more production, they'd strive to get more product out the door with fewer workers. But as you mentioned, the more dues paying employees there are, the better for the union. Unions always strive to increase their membership. I've not seen one that didn't. From the employer's perspective, the more workers he has to pay to do the same job, the less the overall productivity is. This country rose to be the world's economic super power because of our incredible productivity. Now, that is starting to slip away - and no, it's not all the union's fault. I'm just saying... Even when talking to officials or members privately, they push the idea that we have to be more productive if we expect to get paid more than non-union workers, not to say that all workers fit that description. You act as if the employer has no say in how many people he hires or who he chooses to keep. The employer bids a job based on X amount of workers. If he hires that amount and starts falling behind everyone feels the pressure. Workers will be scrutinized and may be fired for minor infractions. Get caught BSing for five minutes instead of working? Your probably fired, it doesn't matter that you were working the rest of the day or for the whole job. If an employee is caught BSing for "five minutes" and doesn't have a file of previous "warnings," I seriously doubt any employer would DARE fire them (union or non-union). The employee will file a grievance (or take it to the state authorities) and the whole thing will go before a board (or a court). The employee would get their job back with paid time off, etc... That's what they're paying union dues for, right? All that would do is add to the employer's expenses. It would make no sense for the employer to do that - especially if the employer has invested in that employee's training. Employers love productive employees. They generally know who puts out and who doesn't. They probably wouldn't even issue a warning to a productive employee. Perception is reality, they will assume that you regularly screw around for hours a week and there are plenty of workers at the hall to take your place. I'm sure it's hard work to start a business, no doubt. Few do it, union or non-union, and most would fail if they tried. That does not mean that they are bad people if they don't try to start a business and complain about a situation. If a situation is bad, one should feel free to complain. If the complaint is legit, the employer may want to address it. I'm not saying they're bad "people." I'm saying they have a choice. They can leave. If they choose to stay in a fucked up situation then they'll get no sympathy from me. If the situation ISN'T fucked up and they just want to whine, they'll get no sympathy from me. The way I see it, there is no need to listen to ANYONE'S whining - for any reason. Tell the next whiner you meet to take a look around. When I started feeling self-pity over my cancer that's what I did. When I looked around, I saw all kinds of people who had it WAY WORSE OFF than I do. Shit, I still have all my limbs and I'm not in a wheel chair. I can pay my medical bills. I even made it to age 52 (so far). I have nothing to complain about. I'd rather have my problems than the next guy's. Moreover, so what if a boss IS getting wealthy? Do they not deserve to do that for starting the business and creating all the jobs that they create? Since when is mega profits a bad thing? Since when does running a successful business make someone a bad person? Obama has created a war on prosperity and I'm saying that our economy needs the RICH every bit as much as the ecology needs the bumble bee. We cannot survive without them. Who are "union types"? Is that me? Are we all the same? I was a union member for nearly 20 years. (ALPA) We both know what I mean by "union types." Their allegiance is to the union, not the company. They look to the union for job protection. They vote how the union tells them to both in contract deals and political elections. The union fulfills their sense of security. They preach the union line to the other workers.... you know what I'm talking about. I've met all different types of people who work for the union. Sure, I can say that some are alike in one fashion or the other, but that not all the same. I know I come off as a big pro-union guy when defending union workers, but that's not really the case. I don't believe that employers should be forced to "go union" and I would not shed one tear if my local shut down, I would still work. I've worked non-union before and it pays the bills. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me unless I pay them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) BigJ480, I am almost totally anti-union now because I KNOW what the average swinging dick can do if they put their mind to it. They can achieve incredible things. They're NOT stuck. No ambitious person needs union protection. Almost anyone with ambition, energy and tons of motivation can become the rich boss they love to hate. The problem the way I see it is that people are basically lazy. They want someone to GIVE THEM shit simply because the other guy has it and they don't. That's what wealth redistribution is all about. It's bullshit. You will NEVER become one of the wealthy through union membership. It's an express elevator to middle-class living and it's guaranteed that you'll have to work every day until you retire and then have to get by on a third of what you're making now. You'll give the best days of your life in exchange for union protections. That helps NOBODY. Nobody with any ambition will stay in that situation for long. There's no real future in it. I don't rail against the union member. I rail against the "attitude." Edited November 20, 2009 by Bounce12 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Damnit, didn't i already cover some of this shit already... You know what... I would be here all night if i tried to cover all the issues brought up here, and i don't feel like doing that. I'm just going to point out that you are all making gross overgeneralizations and not taking all of the factors into perspective. and thats all i'm going to input into this. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 There is a difference between activity, and action. One merely resembles productivity, the other is the definition of productivity. IMHO WS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Since I am not an asshole and have never been; remember, it was me that generated 25 - 35 positions of employment for 28 years that helped folks get housing, food, medical care and so on. I'll pass on one little tip to the Union members - i.e. AFL-CIO and Teamsters. You might want to investigate what your pension funds are being invested in because you are going to be hosed. Welcome new Wal-Mart greeters! Final warning if you can even roll it over into a self directed account; get smart and get out because you have one helluva surprise coming for you. We all have one helluva surprise coming for us from our idiot leader and congress and that will be the worst inflation we have EVER seen coming in the next five years. For those of you too young to remember Paul Volcker was head of the Federal Reserve during Jimmy Carter's disaster when inflation topped 18%. Guess who Barack Hussein Obama appointed to Chairman of the newly formed Economic Recovery Advisory Board? You guessed it, Paul Volcker. Think a little my friends, does this look like something good to you? We have something worse than a F-5 hurricane coming at us and the economic weatherman just told you so. Batten down the hatches or put on your seat belt because you're sure as heck going to want hope and change before it's over. Unfortunately there will be none to be had because you are so brilliant (or so you think) you don't need to get educated or you drank the kool-aid and are beyond help. 1911 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Bounce - remember you can lead a whore to culture but you can't give her class. Well, the thing is, unions are threatened by people like us who preach ideas of self-reliance and personal achievement. If you point out that there is NOTHING the union can offer that you can't vastly exceed on your own, you're met with open resistance. You're expected to fall in line. They want to tell you what "good enough" is, they want you to believe it, and they want you to PAY THEM to do it. I listened to that crap for nearly 20 years before I finally saw the light and broke free. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 There is a difference between activity, and action. One merely resembles productivity, the other is the definition of productivity. IMHO WS Exactly! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Live better: work union. Sure beats my 5 years in the corps, better pay, better conditions, not moving 9 times in 5 years and living out of bags, not getting shot at... Transitioning out can be problematic though, Helmets to hardhats is a great program. Lean a trade instead of just learning to do a simple mechanical function, Understand why things do what they do instead of just knowing what works. They find me work, they give me educational chances. Oh sure i could be content to just get a card and scrape by, but i'm not. I'm gobbling up every certification i can along the way. Welding, Valve repair, Med Gas, Instrumentation... Making myself more valuable. All this while collecting my GI bill for serving in a state sposored apprenticeship. and your going to bitch to me about 5%? you know what 1/2 the training would have cost me if i would have paid for it at a school? The GI bill and a shitty part time job wouldn't cover it, and lets face it with no real life expirience and a high school diploma thats about what i was looking at. As it is rather than pay for school, i get it for $0 out of pocket, and get to pocket my GI bil. Never get rich doing it? maybe if thats all you do. quite a few people in my union traveled and hit "big money" jobs, saved and bought buisnesses like bars, housing that they rent. Play toys are things like excavators that can be used to make more money... The union is a tool, not a limitation. That is born in the mind of the user. and meanwhile i have a solid skill that can be put to use if my union does fold, and its not just in one aspect of the trade. I'm more well rounded so i can handle more. Hell after 10 years I can leave the union without penalty, and i can leave any time regardless with the only fear of reprisal being a fee to be re-instated. The political BS, yeah theres hands in pockets, my local might support a republican, but the national level union ALWAYS supports a democrat. Sad but true, still dosn't mean I'm a brainless zombie following the unions every command... I vote for who I like for me, with all the pro's and cons wraped into it. I'm not going to speak for every union in every aspect of life, that would be another blanket statement, but all bad? you'de be a fool to believe that. Edited November 20, 2009 by Nailbomb 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Yes they can, and they are. The last project I was on had about 6-8 people fired over the time it took to build. I'll give you an example of one incident. The owner of the company "walks the job" about once every two weeks or once a month. One time, during overtime hours, he saw three people sitting on a stack of sheetrock, an hour later they were fired and had their checks. They said that the were looking at the print that was on the pile of sheetrock and planing how to run a rack of conduit., didn't matter. One of them was an apprentice and was only doing what his journeyman told him to do, didn't matter. I'm not talking about workers who are stupid enough to get caught violating company policy. I'm talking about those who are smart enough to make it look like they're busy, but just don't manage to get anything done. They're not pulling the load in any meaningful way. They're the dead-wood types. Foremen check in regularly and they know if you are pussyfooting around. If they see a pattern, you will be fired for "lack of production". It isn't as frequently done as people just caught in the act, I'll give you that. Then you have some explaining to do when you get to the hall. Really, it's no different than non-union shops, at least for my local. The union preaches about production, if they want less production they have a funny way of showing it. IF they wanted more production, they'd strive to get more product out the door with fewer workers. But as you mentioned, the more dues paying employees there are, the better for the union. Unions always strive to increase their membership. I've not seen one that didn't. True, but they will stop actively pursuing members if there is not enough work, my local has done this in the past. Our membership dropped and there was no effort to reverse the situation because the work outlook was bad. Then they try to get companies to go union, which is another subject. the employers ultimately determine how many members the hall is able to retain. It's hard to organize a worker if there is no work and, if you are able to, they will leave soon after. The members would be the ones screwed over by an overly aggressive organizing department. From the employer's perspective, the more workers he has to pay to do the same job, the less the overall productivity is. This country rose to be the world's economic super power because of our incredible productivity. Now, that is starting to slip away - and no, it's not all the union's fault. I'm just saying... It's not necessarily how may workers, but how much the workers cost, overall. Some union's have demanded too much money and the market wouldn't bear it, no doubt. The auto workers union comes to mind. That said, the Asian workers work for so little that it is increasingly impossible to compete with them in the global market. I already know that you see this as a defeatist attitude, but I'm afraid I'm just being a realist. That's one reason our manufacturing sector is vanishing. I certainly hope that outsourcing is no longer economically viable at some point, but I'm doubtful. Luckily I'm in construction, my outsourcing threat is the illegals coming here, supposedly to do jobs that we won't. Even when talking to officials or members privately, they push the idea that we have to be more productive if we expect to get paid more than non-union workers, not to say that all workers fit that description. You act as if the employer has no say in how many people he hires or who he chooses to keep. The employer bids a job based on X amount of workers. If he hires that amount and starts falling behind everyone feels the pressure. Workers will be scrutinized and may be fired for minor infractions. Get caught BSing for five minutes instead of working? Your probably fired, it doesn't matter that you were working the rest of the day or for the whole job. If an employee is caught BSing for "five minutes" and doesn't have a file of previous "warnings," I seriously doubt any employer would DARE fire them (union or non-union). The employee will file a grievance (or take it to the state authorities) and the whole thing will go before a board (or a court). The employee would get their job back with paid time off, etc... That's what they're paying union dues for, right? All that would do is add to the employer's expenses. It would make no sense for the employer to do that - especially if the employer has invested in that employee's training. Employers love productive employees. They generally know who puts out and who doesn't. They probably wouldn't even issue a warning to a productive employee. I don't know what to tell you, I've seen it happen. It's less of a problem for a union worker because they can generally go right back to work with another contractor within a week, maybe that's why they don't push the issue. If wrongfully fired I would just make it a point to avoid working for that contractor in the future. Yes, we pay union dues for representation, but in that situation you are caught red handed. The apprentice in that situation faced being dropped form "the program" if he was fired. The union did attempt to get the firing of all of them changed to a lay-off, but only was able to do that for the apprentice, so he got to stay in the program. Might they make an exception for a well liked employee? Sure, but there are few employees that management considered their "core" employees, the rest are temporary and expendable.employers invest in everyone's training who went through the training program, so getting rid of this employee to get one that went through the same program and might not BS for 5 minutes at a time is no problem. Perception is reality, they will assume that you regularly screw around for hours a week and there are plenty of workers at the hall to take your place. I'm sure it's hard work to start a business, no doubt. Few do it, union or non-union, and most would fail if they tried. That does not mean that they are bad people if they don't try to start a business and complain about a situation. If a situation is bad, one should feel free to complain. If the complaint is legit, the employer may want to address it. I'm not saying they're bad "people." I'm saying they have a choice. They can leave. If they choose to stay in a fucked up situation then they'll get no sympathy from me. If the situation ISN'T fucked up and they just want to whine, they'll get no sympathy from me. I agree. The way I see it, there is no need to listen to ANYONE'S whining - for any reason. Tell the next whiner you meet to take a look around. When I started feeling self-pity over my cancer that's what I did. When I looked around, I saw all kinds of people who had it WAY WORSE OFF than I do. Shit, I still have all my limbs and I'm not in a wheel chair. I can pay my medical bills. I even made it to age 52 (so far). I have nothing to complain about. I'd rather have my problems than the next guy's. Your illness is not comparable to a workplace situation IMHO. In the workplace, complaining might result in action that improves the situation. Moreover, so what if a boss IS getting wealthy? Do they not deserve to do that for starting the business and creating all the jobs that they create? Since when is mega profits a bad thing? Since when does running a successful business make someone a bad person? I have NEVER heard one person complain about the wage of any superior, but I have heard them complain that their superior is incompetent. Foremen make 10% more and GFs make 20% more and everyone agrees that they earn it. Many people turn down promotion because they don't consider it to be worth the added headache. The owner(s) run the show and have a right to earn what they do. We do jokingly mention it, like "Mr. (company name here) needs a new yacht, gotta crack the whip." Obama has created a war on prosperity and I'm saying that our economy needs the RICH every bit as much as the ecology needs the bumble bee. We cannot survive without them. Yep, we should all want to be rich and be happy that some gave made it. Who are "union types"? Is that me? Are we all the same? I was a union member for nearly 20 years. (ALPA) We both know what I mean by "union types." Their allegiance is to the union, not the company. They look to the union for job protection. They vote how the union tells them to both in contract deals and political elections. The union fulfills their sense of security. They preach the union line to the other workers.... you know what I'm talking about. Oh, you mean followers who don't think for themselves. We call the guy's you describe "radicals", some call them "hall trash". The term "union-types" might be read as "anyone in a union", that's why I ask. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 BigJ480, I am almost totally anti-union now because I KNOW what the average swinging dick can do if they put their mind to it. They can achieve incredible things. They're NOT stuck. No ambitious person needs union protection. Almost anyone with ambition, energy and tons of motivation can become the rich boss they love to hate. The problem the way I see it is that people are basically lazy. They want someone to GIVE THEM shit simply because the other guy has it and they don't. That's what wealth redistribution is all about. It's bullshit. You will NEVER become one of the wealthy through union membership. It's an express elevator to middle-class living and it's guaranteed that you'll have to work every day until you retire and then have to get by on a third of what you're making now. You'll give the best days of your life in exchange for union protections. That helps NOBODY. Nobody with any ambition will stay in that situation for long. There's no real future in it. I don't rail against the union member. I rail against the "attitude." I can't disagree with that. I regret not at least going to college part time, perhaps getting a degree in electrical engineering. My plan now is to get my masters license and become an inspector, which is still middle class but is an improvement. The fact is, many are content where they are, as you stated. Who am I to judge? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I think that unions, like socialism, are great ideas on a small scale. If we had tribes of 20 people, they'd work. However, employees just grouping together to meet up once a month (or more as needed) is far superior to a union setup. Every dollar that the union members receive from the union the union received from the union members. However, not all the money they give to the union comes back to them, because those things are run like the government for the most part. Oh and I have seen evidence of union workers being unfireable. I have a friend that complains about one worker at his job pretty much every week. The guy has shown up late every day since he was in the union, then he eats his breakfast, then he gets dressed for work, then he smokes, then he talks on his cell phone, and then actually starts to work. However, there is no pace required either, so he can just pick up a light package and just hold it until all the work is done for the day, then put it down and collect his 8 hours of pay. Great system. At least some of his pay goes into the union. Too bad the other two workers on his shift have to work 50% harder because of it. When he has a day off, my friend is too excited. Because they actually get a third worker, and the work day is shortened 33%. It's been 6 years I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 So, this topic comes up frequently here, yet many people who post here who claim to be pro-American don't give a shit about buying American products. So, why should you buy American made products? Let's start simply. I have $100 and ... -- I mail order a pair of shoes from a company in China. That $100 is now owned by the Chinese, it will probably never return to the USA. -- I buy a pair of shoes from a US company who manufacturers in China. About 10% of that money will probably never return to the USA. -- I buy a pair of shoes from a US company who manufacturers in the USA. That $100 stays in my country and can be used by another American who understands why you should buy American. You can of course replace China with Mexico, Taiwan, Russia, Indonesia, India, Korea, etc, etc, etc. Further, when your money stays in the USA, the money can be spent by employees to support themselves and their families. Which is better for my country: hungry Americans or hungry foreigners? A liberal would say that I should care about humans no matter where they're from; fuck them, I care about my family, then my friends, then my countrymen, then (possibly) everyone else. So, are you a hypocrite if you purchase anything not made in the USA, such as a Saiga? It depends on what your personal ethics are, maybe... I will only purchase US made things. -- This goal is very hard, because there are practically no electronics and very few appliances made in the USA. I will purchase foreign made things ONLY when there is no US alternative available. -- This is a more reasonable goal and actually achievable (if there were a US-made Saiga, I'd be all over it) I will do my best to purchase from US owned companies. -- Another reasonable goal and requires less research than the previous. I will do my best to only purchase from foreign owned companies who manufacture in the USA. -- Many foreign own car companies now manufacture in the USA. I will do my best to purchase from local businesses. -- Keep the money even closer to home! ... I don't care what your ethics are, just try to stick to them Foreign made products are cheaper than US made products. Yes, they are less expensive and lower quality. Always remember the old saying, "You get what you pay for." How many Chinese made products have you purchased, which turned out to be junk? I remember back in the 80's when people saw a "Made in China" sticker, the immediate reaction was "Well, this is going to be a piece of shit." China manufactures their stuff not to last, so you have to buy it again and again. Which would you rather buy a Craftsman tool or a generic "made in china" tool? Customer Support When you purchase something manufactured in the USA, you will generally get support from a fellow American. Otherwise, you either get absolutely nothing or you get to spend an hour on the phone with some douche bag who you can't understand and can't understand you. I live in a very multicultural area, I still can't understand many foreign customer support agents. Declining Middle Class Until the late 80's the middle class in this country had many manufacturing workers, now, not so much. Big deal, right? Well, yes, those middle class people don't get shifted into the upper class, maybe a few of them, but most of them will wind up in the lower class. The more people in the lower class the more of our rights the government will be able to usurp in exchange for Socialist programs. Terrorism China has a long history of selling weapons to our enemies, such as the Taliban, our enemies use those weapons to kill .. hmm let's see .. oh yeah, American soldiers. Yes, your $100 isn't literally going to be these purposes, but some of all of our money is essentially going to assassinate some of our most valuable citizens. Anyone remember Norico, why can't they sell in the states any more? During the Clinton administration they were caught, before they were able to sell guns to US gangs and drug rings (yes, I include these at terrorists), which could have been used against rivals, our police officers and fellow citizens. Then later under Bush they allegedly sold missile related goods to Iran. Property One of the greatest things about the USA is that you can actually own property. I think we all know about Detroit, these days, you can get (for example) a 7 bedroom 4.5 bathroom house for under $65k, because their primary industry dried up, when all the manufacturers moved their plants to foreign countries. If you show companies that you won't buy their foreign made products, what will happen? Still Not Convinced? Please do some research for yourself. http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north238.html http://www.madeinusa.org/nav.cgi?info/whybuy http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/8194/ there are many many more articles Do you love the USA? Then please keep your money here, support your fellow country men! That’s a big fat +10, great post that’s got sidetracked; I know this argument all too well, unions, good, bad, makes no difference on the grand scale of things. Greedy people are to blame! The big money bags have all the little people barking and bitching at each other and until the common people put their petty differences aside and focus on the core of our misery, then this is a road we are all condemned to travel. In the end it will be men with morals, decency, integrity, and love for their countryman that will clean up this mess, because greedy men are hollow and stand for nothing, in the end, the men who got us to this point of break down will no longer be just greedy men, but bleeding and dying men! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 The fact is, many are content where they are, as you stated. Who am I to judge? I don't judge them for staying where they are. I "judge" them for wanting to stick their hands in the next guy's pocket (the rich boss to name one such person) and take something they didn't earn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BronCobraJet 80 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Bounce 12, 1911, I'm not trying to start a shit storm about unions. I realize that there are people that are out to "fuck the big man", but those people exist in every craft and trade. The point I was trying to make, is that the average "joe 6-pak" is getting screwed every time he turns around. Yes, you get a 1.5% increase in wage, but at the sae time you get a 12% increase in health care, with a 10% increase in gas or a 6% increase in home heating bills. The shit never ends. Here in the mid west, we are known for our hard work ethic and above average intelligence. I don't know who you are comparing us to. There are zero options for 99.9% of the people around here to start there own business. Most of the manufacturing has been shipped overseas, including Monroe Shocks that just layed off 500 people in a small town 10 miles away (Cozad). We work hard and are true to our core work ethics. That is the way we were raised. When one sees the Gov. give billions, if not TRILLIONS of dollars to Wall Street and the Bankers for "Fucking Off", well, yeah, it kind of makes you wonder, "wheres mine?" Thats not to say thats the mentality here, maybe it's just me. But I'm Union and work as much as possible and as hard as possible, because I know that there are 500 people in Cozad that would be happy to have my job. Unions are not a bad thing. They allow the average "joe 6pak to be able to afford a house, car and maybe some extras. Union "benifits" aren't carved in stone and automatic. Pre 1985 employees have a huge pay disparity compared to post 1985 employees. I will never recieve Federal Income tax benefits, even though I paid into the system for 15 years. We are the backbone of the railroad (engineers and conductors) yet we don't receive any "profit sharing", Thats only for management. I typically avereage about a 36-40 hour round trip. I usually work 4 trips in a half month period. You do the math. I' not home alot. i'm in the hotel at the far end alot. Not all of of us can be rocket scientists and start their own business. Some of the people have to do the grunt work. If it weren't for the unions, we would be still at 16 hours a day. We are down to 12 hours now. I don't get overtime until 15 hrs 45 min. a truly sucky way to earn money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BronCobraJet 80 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 I forgot to add, I'm just thankful I have a job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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