Will486 7 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) Hello gents. I imagine there is another thread similar to this lurking around somewhere in the pages of history.. so Ill try to get this question out of the way as quick as possible. We all know not to leave a loaded mag inserted on a closed bolt, bent first shell and all that. How about keeping a loaded mag inserted and locking the bolt back.. and just leaving it like that? Id retain the bolt carrier with a notched safety lever, as an added measure of safety, but will leaving the bolt locked back and the spring compressed for extended periods of time degrade the spring's power noticeably? Thanks for any help. Like this one: (Because threads are always better with pics) edit: sorry bout double post.. Edited December 10, 2009 by Will486 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) This is the way I've kept mine. I just assumed it was OK. I didn't think to ask the question. Edited December 10, 2009 by Bounce12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gkcf 8 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 It'll be fine. Springs lose power though repeated compression and de-compression, not by you leaving them in one state or another for a length of time. In other words, it'll wear out faster the more you shoot it and play with it. If you leave it alone it should last indefinitely. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bounce12 407 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 It'll be fine. Springs lose power though repeated compression and de-compression, not by you leaving them in one state or another for a length of time. In other words, it'll wear out faster the more you shoot it and play with it. If you leave it alone it should last indefinitely. I think this is correct. I've had mine like this for over a year (except when I was shooting) and it's fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhansjr 8 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Has anyone tried one of these as your first round? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Has anyone tried one of these as your first round? That's what I do, but last I checked you couldn't get them anywhere. I only have 10 left. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saiga wannabe1 0 Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 I saw a video where a guy suggests loading your first round with a spent shell so you can keep a closed bolt.......then just rack the bolt and eject the spent shell then your ready to rock and roll........what does everyone think of that method??????????????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
presto_z 125 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 I saw a video where a guy suggests loading your first round with a spent shell so you can keep a closed bolt.......then just rack the bolt and eject the spent shell then your ready to rock and roll........what does everyone think of that method??????????????? waste of time... the round below is still up against the bottom of the bolt.. why not just have no round chambered? i just lock the bolt back like stated above. spring fatigue is minimal/nearly non existant when no heat is present Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Pin the mag to keep tension off the top round, just tie the pin to something so it comes out when you grab the gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 There is a "Grenade Pin" alternative. You drill a hole trough the top of the mag for a pin, just so that one shell fits loose in the very top and the rest are held down by the pin. When needed; pull pin, rack bolt and fire. Here's the link.... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=20352&hl=storing+loaded+mag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deussne 38 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Geez why not just keep the bolt back via bolt hold open lever and flip the safety up as far as you can go. That will engage the safety and all you got to do is charge the handle by pulling it back which will lower the safety and chamber a round....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Pin the mag to keep tension off the top round, just tie the pin to something so it comes out when you grab the gun. +1 Best idea I've heard yet. I may try that one sometime. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 For HD, I've had mine with the bolt locked back since I got it 12 months ago (when not shooting of course). Zero problems with the recoil spring. Besides, you can get spare recoil springs. The full length steel casings are nice, but they're dried up around here. Haven't seen any for a while (except for the 410, which also work great). Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 You won't hurt a thing keeping the bolt locked back. I tried to store mine with a loaded mag and bolt closed, and when I took it out to shoot the old ammo the first round had a FTF due to the slightly oval round... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Will486 7 Posted December 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 thanks guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhansjr 8 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Has anyone tried one of these as your first round? That's what I do, but last I checked you couldn't get them anywhere. I only have 10 left. Shane, J&G Sales in Prescott has them in stock. Search their Ammo for Shotgun link. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 I just keep my MD20 full of slugs.....but I also keep my bolt back. I have heard that the slugs don't deform too bad and the first round goes in fine. I have only tested it for a week though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Geez why not just keep the bolt back via bolt hold open lever and flip the safety up as far as you can go. That will engage the safety and all you got to do is charge the handle by pulling it back which will lower the safety and chamber a round....... I didn't know it worked like that...I have been keeping the bolt back and the safty off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) Pin the mag to keep tension off the top round, just tie the pin to something so it comes out when you grab the gun. +1 Best idea I've heard yet. I may try that one sometime. Not really. When something goes bump in the night, 1. Make sure you've got your "special" magazine inserted. 2. Pull the pin. 3. Rack the bolt. 4. Selector from safe to fire. 5. Rock and roll. Or you could leave your bolt locked open with a notched selector (or factory BHO, but that adds an extra step for the safety). Leave any magazine you want in the gun. 1. Selector from safe to fire, releasing bolt. 2. Rock and roll. How many magazines do you own? Do you really want to drill holes in all of them, or are you only going to depend on a subset of them for home defense? Edited December 11, 2009 by aresv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) I used a 5rndr for the "grenade" pin mag. It's the only size mag that fits in my safe easily(in gun) and the rest(5s, 8s and 10s) are there for reloads(no pins needed) as necessary. Also, I keep a round in the chamber, saftey on(I don't want to shoot myself in the face pulling it out) also racking the bolt takes time you may not have... Pin comes out, safety drops down, KABOOM. And 5 more after that. Been that way for a year now, no probs. Course no home invasions yet either. LRoDV, Mikel Edited December 11, 2009 by BpS12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SELFDEFENSE 2 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Just make sure no stuff gets in the chamber and malfs the gun at the wrong time. I have tried firing 4 times the 2nd round that was stored under the bolt and they have cycled (although all were slugs which may be more resistant to deformation). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Geez why not just keep the bolt back via bolt hold open lever and flip the safety up as far as you can go. That will engage the safety and all you got to do is charge the handle by pulling it back which will lower the safety and chamber a round....... I didn't know it worked like that...I have been keeping the bolt back and the safty off. It doesn't work like that. You can engage the safety with the bolt held back, but there is no round chambered so what is the point in that? Then when you do charge the gun this will not release the safety. You would still have to do that manually. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I keep mine with the safety up also, it clears the bolt find and you can't pull the trigger. Main reason why I do that is if the gun falls over or is bumped with a bit of force the bolt will close and chamber a round. I had this problem with my AR15 also, but I have pretty heavy carrier in there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mgconnor13 206 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) how long does it take for a shell to deform? I burn through ammo pretty regularly so rounds never sit in the mags that long. I might just rotate loaded mags in the gun with the bolt forward. I've yet to see a round deform from keeping a loaded mag in my saiga with the bolt forward, but again ammo never stays in a mag very long around my house. I'm not worried about magazine springs wearing out. I had a bunch of loaded mags that sat a whole deployment and they feed just fine when I used them. I think it's safe to say use wears springs faster then being compressed. Edited December 13, 2009 by Rusty truck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Pin the mag to keep tension off the top round, just tie the pin to something so it comes out when you grab the gun. +1 Best idea I've heard yet. I may try that one sometime. Not really. When something goes bump in the night, 1. Make sure you've got your "special" magazine inserted. 2. Pull the pin. 3. Rack the bolt. 4. Selector from safe to fire. 5. Rock and roll. Or you could leave your bolt locked open with a notched selector (or factory BHO, but that adds an extra step for the safety). Leave any magazine you want in the gun. 1. Selector from safe to fire, releasing bolt. 2. Rock and roll. How many magazines do you own? Do you really want to drill holes in all of them, or are you only going to depend on a subset of them for home defense? I think you misunderstand. Why would you need more than one mag pinned? All those extra steps are completely unnecessary. What he (we) are saying is do the mag-pin mod to ONE magazine which you keep in the gun, with the chamber loaded, safety off. You physically tie the pin to a stationary object near where you keep the gun. When something goes bump in the night you: 1:Pick up your gun (which pulls the mag pin)and 2:Fire. NO swapping mags, NO pulling pins, NO racking the bolt, NO manipulating the selector. IMHO This is the best method I've heard yet for storing a S12 at-the-ready with a closed bolt. You can even load an extra round in the chamber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AresI-X 3 Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 with the chamber loaded, safety off Not my cup of tea. Are you sure that's what you meant to say? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) You all can do what you want but I just think you are making this too complicated. I still don't see a real need to dink around with the safety at all if the idea here is to keep the gun as ready as possible without deforming the first shell. I keep the safety off so thats one less thing to have to think about. The bolt is held back with NO round in the chamber. The gun hangs on a hook, muzzle down, with the grip at the height of my hand while standing. Since the gun is hanging and therefore supported at the top it's not going to get knocked over or anything else that would accidently chamber a round. I grab the gun by the grip, bring the muzzle up while racking the first round. It works very well. The pin idea is a good one, and I may try that sometime on another S12. But having been convinced that mainspring fatigue is not an issue I'm not willing to drill holes in my Russian mags, which are my "go to" home defense mags. BTW, if you use the pin with round chambered and the bolt closed I think you would want to have the safety on. So time-wise I don't see a big difference in taking the safety off and chambering a round, and I think you would have to consider the gun "safer" without a round chambered anyway. Just my .02 Edited December 14, 2009 by DogMan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 with the chamber loaded, safety off Not my cup of tea. Are you sure that's what you meant to say? Thats what I meant to say. If you're looking for fewest steps possible thats the way top do it. If you wanna use the safety, thats fine too just adds one little step. Do whatever you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lelandeod 179 Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) It'll be fine. Springs lose power though repeated compression and de-compression, not by you leaving them in one state or another for a length of time. In other words, it'll wear out faster the more you shoot it and play with it. If you leave it alone it should last indefinitely. Finally! Someone to back me up! I've been trying to tell people for years that their habit of rotating ammo in and out of their mags is wearing them out faster than just leaving them alone. I had a metalurgist explain to me once why it is worse to compress/decompress a mag continually rather than just leaving it compressed. I can't remember the science behind it but it definately stuck in my head as a "no no." Just leave the mag inserted with the bolt locked to the rear. Problem solved. Edited December 14, 2009 by lelandEOD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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