duracoating for my freinds is illegal???

[funshootin1 10]

this came up when i went in to put a deposit on my s12, I do some duracoating for buddies, not a business, I make NO profit and dont want to, I feel I do good work and everyone who has seen any of it agrees its done well. esentially a freind or shooting buddy who has a rifle or pistol they want to refinish does it at my garage, Im set up with a good compressor with multiple filters, a stand up oven good paint guns and airbrushes, basicly the works to do a clean job. so i havent done any in about a year and a half and was talking in the gun shop about the conversion ect and how its getting duracoated when im done with the metal work and two guys behind the counter that I know well asked if i would do a little duracoat for them,( slide for a glock and a digital job on an ar) I replied as always, you pay for whatever weird colors you need,any special stensils , I have some basic colors you can use some if needed and bring a six pack while we wait for the oven to do its thing. then the owner chimed in about how i need to be carefull, I need to log in and out these guns im finishing, I need a business licence, none of the guns can stay on my property overnight without proper paperwork blah blah blee blah. This struck me as absurd, these are folks i hunt and shoot with, known em all my life or at least know them well, no moneys changing hands. Whats your take on this situation, Im not tying to become a criminal for helping buddies and myself save some scratch on our collective gun habits. thanks in advance for your input.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If your friends are there, I'm pretty sure no transfer happened.

 

Hell I've let friend use my guns for hunting.

 

Pistols, well maybe thats a issue, but otherwise the guy was being a ass. I recomend not doing any work for him.

[longhorn 81]

As long as it is a hobby/favor I'm sure it's not a problem. You don't need a business licence to do free work. After all, you don't need a licence to help your friend fix his car etc. I fix my friends guns all the time without thinking twice about it. Yesterday, while shooting, I had a guy trying to tell me that I was jerking while I was pulling the trigger. I was shooting my xd-40 and hitting a paper target at 20 yds in the 9 and 8 rings. I was polite and kept my thoughts to myself. When he began to shoot he put 2 bullets in the 6 and 7 ring and the rest were completely of the paper. Some people are just like that.

Edited December 17, 2009 by waite

[DogMan 2,343]

I need more friends like you. I don't know what the legal technicalities are but I can't see something like that being prosecuted. Why don't you just leave the gun store owner out of it? It sounds like none of his business anyway.

[thehopping1 105]

I know here in Az it is legal to lend some one a gun for an indefinite amount of time and being in possession of some ones gun is not a crime, unless it is reported stolen. I'm not sure about the paint, but I wouldn't worry about it. Doing a conversion for some one while they are not there though, that might be bad.

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

I asked my FFL this same, almost EXACTLY, question not more then a day ago and he said no. Even if your pulling a profit from it no License, Biz/FFL/Smith, is needed according to him.

 

If I was you and REALLY concerned I'd call the ATF for a "from the horses mouth" answer.

 

National Firearms Act Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA

Voice (304) 616-4500

[kisatu 3]

As long as your not clamming all the tools and paint on your taxes as a job related right off and there are no fellans your doing work for i would not worry about it.... Of course after 9/11 everyone wants to point fingers at everyone... Guns, if you own a gun you must be a bad gun right?..... So Sad, I hope we do not go the way of Europe. A bit of advice if you do not have insurance that would cover some kind of mishap then you should have everyone sign a waver/contract stating that you were not paid for your services and they borrowed your tools to do the work, you merely over saw the use of your tools, etc. Also state that you can not be held responsible for anything that may happen due to miss use, etc... The laws may vary state to state as well. That is the best advice i have with out calling my lawyer. Good Luck, Either way i would not be shouting to the hills about your kick ass hobby. As sad as it is people just do not get the truth about guns anymore. Maybe they forgot our freedom they gave us, or maybe they just need to be swarmed by zombies/aliens.

[vbrtrmn 167]

This is why I don't do favors for people who aren't friends.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Its sound more to me like this guy was just pissed off you can do somthing for your buddies and save them some money rather than have to pay somone hundreds to do it! I'm far from an expert but it sounds pretty out there. I see no reason why letting somone paint up do whatever to your gun as long as its in compliance with laws would require an ffl. I have heard stories of dealers sayin some pretty off the wall stuff that was total bullshit just because it cuts into their business if u can find a way to do it on ur own so i wouldnt worry to much about it, sounds like somone needs to tell the guy where to stuff it. heh thinkin of it my brother actually had a dealer tell him once he couldnt buy our father a rifle or somthing because there is no way to tell if he is a felon or some shit lol, dont remember the whole story its been many years. Some of these guys just get a little knowledge and fling it too much.

[akastormi 617]

I wish I could remember all the guns I've DuraCoated for people. I bet I've got a half dozen favors owed to me floating out there for paint jobs.

If that was the case; Nailbomb, sniffle sniffle I can't camo your 12 for ya.

[diamondback 56]

And this is part of why how I roll even with friends is "I'll teach you how to do it, I'll help you do it, I'll provide the supplies, but in the end you're gonna be the one doing it, albeit with considerable help." Just like my approach to my personal-defense students was "I'm not going to teach you, you're going to teach yourself--but I'm gonna be your T.A. and help you do it, and refer you to experts who will further help you teach yourself"...

[bullturkey 2]

9 out of 10 times no good deed goes un-punished.

[negev5021 25]

Actually, I think the owner was right. I believe to work on guns you at least have to have an FFL. I do not believe you are risking anything by having your friends over for a duracoat party, but I am also no lawyer.

 

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/081508manufacturing-of-firearms.pdf

 

 

"14. A company produces firearms or firearm receivers and sends the

firearm/receivers out for colorizing (bluing, camouflaging, phosphating, or plating) and/or heat treating. Do the companies performing the colorization and/or heat treating need to be licensed as manufacturers, and are the companies required to place their markings on the firearm? ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are manufacturing processes. The companies performing the processes are required to be licensed as manufacturers. If the companies providing colorization and/or heat treating have not received variances to adopt the original manufacturer’s markings, they would be required to place their own markings on any firearm on which they perform the manufacturing process of colorization and/or heat treating."

 

I am sorry to have brought this to your attention, because what your doing is awesome in my opinion. I would certainly dig further before not helping your buddies refinish.

Edited December 22, 2009 by negev5021

[nalioth 405]

[negev5021 25]

. except ol' funshootin1 ain't friends with no "company".

 

. . and he ain't doing it for any "company" or for his livelihood'

 

Agreed. I think the important statement is:

 

ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are manufacturing processes.

 

 

I still believe that there is no problem helping your friends. I also think the owner of the gun shop was trying to be more helpful than be a dick, or at very least his statements were not completely unfounded.

Edited December 23, 2009 by negev5021

[diamondback 56]

Hence my point and question: If I give you the materials and help, but you do most of the work, you're technically doing it to your own gun, right?

[SJgunguy 5]

[thedave8 0]

How it was explained to me was as long as the owner is present.....you are good to go....but you cannot work on someones firearm w/out them present without a FFL.....stupid but.......say your buddy has a shotgun w/ a broken firing pin....you are not manufacturing anything, but to repair it without him there you are supposed to be licensed.......just another hair splitter..

[SJgunguy 5]

How it was explained to me was as long as the owner is present.....you are good to go....but you cannot work on someones firearm w/out them present without a FFL.....stupid but.......say your buddy has a shotgun w/ a broken firing pin....you are not manufacturing anything, but to repair it without him there you are supposed to be licensed.......just another hair splitter..

 

 

This is true, but hypotheticlly speaking. Your buddy loans you a gun, when he shoots it, the firing pin brakes and being the good freind that he is he fixes it for you.

 

I see it more as the ATF wants to keep track of stuff going accross state lines.

[thedave8 0]

yup yup

[Twinsen 86]

I doubt you will run into problems with the law. But I guarantee that within my lifetime the government of this country will consider handling of someone else's firearm in any manner "a transfer." There is already talk of title II firearms being this way, so that nobody but the owner can ever fire them. They'll do it, just give them time and votes.

[Bvamp 604]

"ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are manufacturing processes"

 

 

You can help a friend with an occasional repair, without modifying the original configuration or finish of the firearm, but otherwise they must do the work themselves. If you stand there and point and instruct, thats a grey area in itself as well, but when you do it, its a manufacturing process, and you are breaking the law.

 

If you change a firearm from factory configuration or finish, you are gunsmithing without a license, unless its done for you, and you alone.

 

see also and crossreference to "the letter" VanKiller posted last year stating what makes you a gun smithing operation by the letter of the law and makes you considered as a "company". There were a LOT of non-comments about that when Tom posted it.

 

 

If you want to help your friend repair a finish, thats one thing, but outright blasting the gun, degreasing it, camoing it, cooking it and reassembling it, IS considered gunsmithing when not done for your own self.

[funshootin1 10]

Awesome input guys. the store owner is still a good dude in my book, it was more like advice to be careful how i do it and to involve the gun owner in the process. "we" did a nice ak74 for him in duracoat Stainless finish with just a touch of parker and flat black to tone it down. He likey alot. dura coat is awesome stuff, now I have no problem buying a used gun thats great minus the finish cause I can just make it nice and shiny and new. on a side note. do not paint your glock brilliant stars and bars red white and blue, the novelty wears off as your standing at the bead blaster wondering why oh why.(and wtf am I gonna do with all this red and blue paint) as per time and votes on those title 2 changes...It seems to me that no votes ever happen, ATF just seems to change the law or "make a ruling or determination to adjust the law" as they seem fit. how long till saiga12s are considered DDs? Thanks for the help everyone and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR !