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Short barrel or long barrel accuracy


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Ok, I need a straight answer on this 'cause I've heard several different things on this forum about it. Which is more accurate, a Saiga .308 16" barrel or a Saiga .308 22" barrel? I heard (and we can all agree) that the longer barrel has more velocity than a shorter barrel. I then heard that the longer barrel is less accurate because the gas piston jars the gun before the bullet exits the barrel, and also because the longer barrel flexes more or something. I'm thinking, "plausable, but where's the evidence?" I mean is this something someone just "hypothesized," or is it actual fact?

 

First off, has it been proven that the action slams back on a Saiga .308 22" barrel before the bullet exits the gun? Or on the opposite side: has it been proven that a standard 150 grain .308 NATO bullet exits the barrel of a 16" faster than the action can slam the receiver?

 

Secondly, How much flex in the barrel are we talkin' about? There's only 6 more inches of barrel there on a 22 incher, it can't be much more flex than on a 16 inch barrel. This also goes for my first point: Is it just 6 more inches that the bullet has to travel to not beat the time it takes for the action to slam the receiver?

 

And thirdly, how much accuracy are we talkin' here? Like, say, has anyone strapped down two guns in a shooting vice, a 16" and a 22" and shot them at 100 yards? What kind of differnce in the hit pattern is it? If you think about it, it could just be the difference in balance between a shorter barreled or longer barreled rifle that the person shooting it was more/less accurate.

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I don't know of anyone who has actually preformed any tests of the type you are talking about. I've asked for the same and no one was able to provide any evidence. If you have read through the other threads on this subject (congrats on that by the way :up: ) then I'm sure you know where I stand.

 

I would like to say something regarding the movement of the bolt carrier... but find myself unable to call up the relevant facts at the moment (regarding gas-operated guns in general). So, I will post again later today (hopefully) with more information.

 

Please, if someone has something that's more than an oppinion, speak up on this.

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Springfeild armory did tests with M-1A's and found that the 18" barrels were on average more accurate than the standard length. They attributed it to less flex harmonics in the shorter barrels. The same thing has been found in bolt guns, so it is not just a factor of the action opening, which I believe would affect the barrel most when movement of the carrier and gas piston is initiated, but is present in bolt guns too. It seems to be a newer accuracy theory, since target rifles traditionally had longer barrels, but look at all the short barreled sniper rifles out there. Now each gun is individual, and one longer barrell maybe more accurate than another shorter barrell, but from results I have seen at the range, I believe the shorter barrel theory. Also the 16" barrel is thicker at the muzzel than the 22". How much? Good question, It will not be a dramatic diference, so make the choice on what you like, and what your shooting abilities are. To a target shooter, or a sniper, 0.2 inches is signifigant, but to most of us mortals it is not. pick one and have fun practicing with it alot! :killer::rolleyes:

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Alright, I'm back.

 

After doing some measurments and speaking with an armorer, I have determined that the saiga 308 has a gas system much like the M14, in that there is an empty space that must be filled up with a certain volume of gas before any energy is imparted to the piston (and carrier assembly in this case). This was probably done so that the gas block could be left in the same place on both models (barrel length after the gas block being the main difference). That said, the movement of the piston/carrier shouldn't affect the accuracy of the rifle much, if at all.

 

As far as barrel whip goes, forget about it. If we were talking about a Dragunov, then maybe, but the difference in barrel diameter makes it a non-issue. The 308 saigas have heavy barrels, heavier than normal for com-bloc weapons. An extra 6 inches shouldn't make a difference.

 

If there is any difference in accuracy, it's likely to be because of the ammunition being used. What I'm talking about here is the twist rate of the rifling compared to the velocity of the bullet. One is likely to shoot better with certain ammo than the other is. Want more specifics? I don't have more specifics. No one has posted any useable data (that I know of) on this subject.

 

The bottom line on this is that until someone compares the three rifles (16 syn, 22 syn, and 22 wood) side by side, under the same conditions, with the same ammunition, etc. etc. and does some work to find the most accuarate loadings for both, at ranges from 100 to 600 yards (or more)------> It's pointless.

 

Once again, if anyone has some actual data, please.... step up. We would all like to know. </rant (kind of) = OFF (definately)>

 

Have a nice day guys.

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6 inches can make a big difference in barrel stiffness when they're the same diameter. It's the same concept as breaking a pencil. No too hard eh? Now break one of the smaller pieces, it's a bit more difficult and continues to be so as the piece decreases in length. A barrel doesn't have to be stiff to be accurate, but it helps.

 

The difference between the lengths isn't much and the 16" does have a large velocity handicap. Pick your poison. I personally think a 20" would be ideal and it was my initial plan to cut down a 22" before I just said "the heck with it" and bought a 16.

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Well, I have a 16" .308 and one of my first groups with it was a little less than 3 MOA. That was good enough for me considering it's a semi auto rifle of com-blok design. Out of the box, I feel that the Saiga .308 has the worst trigger ever and a really crappy cheekweld. It's not the easiest rifle to get used to. After doing a conversion on it, it's much better, but I still haven't been able to test it's accuracy.

 

It seemed to me, that when I shot it, it exhibited massive migration of Point of Impact as the barrel heated up. Seeing as how my shots lined up in a long vertical string... Who knows, it could have been my optics, or even more likely myself reacting to recoil. (I'm not that good of a shot)

 

More than anything, the Saiga 16" .308 is best for one thing... Making a tremendous boom to irritate all the lame bolt gunners that you have to share the firing line with. :rolleyes:

 

(oh man is it a loud gun...especially indoors!)

 

I'd love to get a muzzle break on mine that makes it even louder! Mwahahahaha!!!!! :devil:

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Funny thing about the noise is that you don't really make much more noise than the guys with the longer barrels. If you were to stand closer to the muzzle of one of their guns, it would seem pretty loud also.

 

I think that this is one of those subjects (accuracy differences between barrel lengths) that is never going to end. There's no incentive to really do any testing on it. Besides, I wonder if any of us would even believe the results. :lolol:

 

I'd like to think my skills are infallible, but that's not really the case. I actually have a suspiscion that some individuals have an easier time with one or the other (barrel length) and can just shoot it more accurately. I'm not sure what to base it on though. Any suggestions?

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If shooting with irons, you might be able to say that people shoot the 22" more accurately due to the longer sight radius. Someone might also claim that one or the other (probably the 16") has better balance and therefore shoots better, but this of course wouldn't matter much if you're going with bench groups.

 

Overall, the weapon is what it is. These are factory built AK derivatives not built for match grade accuracy. I do feel they are plenty accurate for most things you'd want to use one for.

 

As another poster said, make your choice based on what you like and what feels best to you. I doubt any of us will notice strong enough differences in accuracy to make a choice based on that.

 

It ain't a match or sniper rifle, but it sure makes a fun marksman's rifle and plinker! (Good 'homeland defense' piece too!)

 

Long live the Saiga-

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I have three Saigas. A 22" wood, 16" synthetic and a 16" synthetic PG conversion. I've had a chance to shoot them @ 100 yds. & 200 yds. using the same ammo. I've shot them from a bench off sand bags using iron sights and the targets are almost identical. I haven't been able to see any discernable accuracy difference among the rifles. What little difference I have seen has been due to me rather than the rifle.

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So tell us about the groups. What size you shooting? What ammo do your guns like? The one day I got to shoot mine so far, It did seem that The first 3 rnds were tight sub moa with fgmm, but then I'd start to string vertical and left, that may have due to the crummy scopemount the leftward anyway. After reading some very impresive accuracy claims I'm interested in hearing some other's real accuracy tests. :chris: arrrrrrr

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I 2nd that motion. If you would indulge us Saiga Fan? What ammo and what kind of groups? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

On a slightly related topic, I wonder if everyone is measuring their groups the same way? Also, how many shots to a group? I would bet that this could account for a lot of accuracy difference claims. For instance: a three shot group measured center-to-cener is very likely to be smaller than a five shot group measured outside-edge to outside-edge.

 

I'm not sure I have an oppinion on which measurment type to use, but I do have an oppinion on how many shots to a group. I can not for the life of me think of any reason that a person in the field (not at a target range/match) would need to put more than one shot into any given one inch area. I'm assuming the use of optics and bullets suitable for dispatching the target in question (aka: anything but FMJ!!!).

 

So, I propse that we start measuring by how close your bullet goes to where you wanted it to go. One shot per one inch (or less) target, for as many targets as you're willing to shoot. I'm planning on trying this with a number of optically sighted and iron-sighted rifles and seeing how it works. Anybody else willing to give it a go?

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I've always liked longer barreled rifles just because of the higher velocity and the ability to sling a bullet a little farther and really test the range of the ammo. But at the same time, you can't beat a short barreled rifle, especially in an assault weapon configuration, because of the ease of wielding and the tendency to sling as many bullets out there as the magazine will hold (ie - bullet hose)

 

Long barreled or short barreled rifles are both fun to shoot, and when it comes to the Saigas, it seems that they would both be pretty even, accuracy wise. It all comes down to a personal preference, I guess.

 

Yeah, like Tokageko says, anybody with info about shooting, like what kind of gun performs the best with what kind of ammo, and how you measure your groups would all be useful info. I like the idea of measuring how far you came from your actual target too. Keep posting guys, I think we could start a new wave of target shooting here. :smoke:

Edited by Maniac Jack
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