38 super vs 357 sig

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Long post, so sorry about that. I recently sold off a sig P6 that wouldn't feed hollowpoints in order to get a more fitting CCW. I have a sig 229 in 357 sig that I love shooting, but it's a bit big for carry in all but winter garb (carrying it for a few more months, then I'm going to need a little smaller pistol).

 

So, here are my options:

 

I have a witness polymer compact frame that currently sports a ported 45acp full size slide. I'm thinking a 38 super compact slide on the poly witness would net me a gun very similar to my PT145 taurus, but it would be a DA/SA which I somewhat prefer. Cost of that would probably be around $300 after mags and all that jazz. And, I'd need to buy dies for it (another $40 or so).

 

Or,

 

Go out and purchase either a glock 32c or glock 33 for CCW work. That's about a $650 endeavor after mags and all that jazz. I already have the sig dies and brass, so no added cost there.

 

Both are about the same power in such small packages, and money is probably a secondary object (I may well wind up with both eventually, but want to know what's the better deal to do first). The glock 33 is probably better overall given the 357 sig is no slouch and you have 10 rounds of power that would be smaller than my current PT145. However, given the cost, I'm wondering if anyone has a compact witness in 38 super that they can share their opinion of. I have a full size witness 10mm and it's not always a great feeder, so I'm hesitant to bet my hide on the 38 super until I have fully wrung it out successfully. There should be no such reliability issues with the glock, of course.

 

Like my PT145 and will keep that, but you can never have too many you know...

 

Thx for the advice. I'm leaning toward the glock unless someone can talk me out of it...?

[kencrawleysc 11]

I have a Glock 27 that I bought a 357 SIG barrel for. I c. carry it occasionally. You can get them for about $125.

The point of aim is different than for the native .40, but it is close enough. I like bottleneck pistol cartridges. But the 357 Sig is a pain to reload. I have loaded about 3,500 of them. The problem is the bullet can recess into the brass. you have to watch out about repeatedly racking the same round into the pipe. I actually drop the bullet into the chamber, drop the slide to let the ejector catch the rim, and insert the mag. My Sig P-226 is saweet. It's a lot more controllable than my old Model 19 357 Magnum. To answer your question, my Sig will kick your 38 super's ass.

[YARP 300]

buckandaquarterstaff.... jeez that's a long ass name. I have a system that may work out pretty well for you, I'm not gonna lie it will cost you but in the long run you will be pleased. I just bought a Gen 3 Glock 29, should be here early January for show and tell time. Before I get to that though I'll give you a little background. I love my Glock 20 in 10mm but finding ammo for it is either hard or it's overpriced (yes I reload, just don't like doing it every time I go to the range), so I wanted an alternative pistol which of course costs more money. My buddy told me about Lone Wolf Distributors drop in barrels ( http://www.lonewolfdist.com/ ). I can shoot .40S&W and .357sig out of my G20 and I can use the same mags. It took me about 100rds on each barrel to get things running smoothly but I haven't had one issue since then. EFK dist has also come out with a conversion barrel in 9mm ( http://www.efkfiredragon.com/categories.php ).

So anyway onto your ultimate (mine also) CCW rig. Pick up one Glock 29 in 10mm along with appropriate mags (I'd suggest 1 mag with a finger extension to keep in the gun, for the rest just get some Glock 20 mags with finger extension.). Then through either EFK or Lone Wolf (I've used both and like both) pick up 1 .357SIG, 1 .40S&W, 1 9mm conversion barrel preferably the ported ones. If you really get a hair up your ass to go the extra mile (just do it you won't regret it), buy a Glock 30 in .45ACP take the slide off and sell the frame to someone who needs it, unfortunately .45ACP will not work in the 10mm mags so you'll have to purchase a couple of those. Now to shoot .45ACP all you have to do is replace the slide on your G29 frame and switch out mags. It's the ultimate setup.

Here's a cost run down for you, I'm listing average prices, you may be able to do it for less.

Glock 29=$530.00

.357 ported conversion barrel=$115.00

9mm ported conversion barrel=$115.00

.40S&W ported conversion barrel=$115.00

10 15rd glock 20 mags=$250.00

that comes to a final cost of $1125.00

now if you were to buy a pistol and mags for each of these calibers you'd probably be spending around $3000.00 minimum

Hell lets take it one step further.

Glock 30=$530.00 (go find one used with a couple extra mags for about $600.00)

Advantage arms .22LR conversion slide and mag=$300.00

Lasermax laser=$330.00

General Glock extras (trigger job, extended slide release, extended mag release, titanium striker with spring and upgraded recoil rod/spring)=$300.00

grand total about $1500.00

So for about $2600.00 you will have not only the ultimate CCW (10mm get some) but be able to shoot 6 different calibers. Couple that with a Maxpedition Thermite versipack

( http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=19&idcategory=4 ) and you can carry all that crap everywhere.

whew ok fingers are tired taking a break.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

You can call me Ray or you can call me Jay (dating myself?). Buck works for me. Now you've went and got me thinking about stuff I hadn't even thought about. I think you're on to something there YARP...

 

Main reason I don't shoot my 10mm too much is that I tend to shoot more in the winter and I lose alot of brass in snow banks and even if it's in our covered range it's cold rummaging around for brass. I can get 1000 sig cases for about $40 so if I lose a few I'm not going to cry about it. But now that you mention it, I can see how the 10mm would work as a CCW cartridge. Might be a little snappy in a glock subcompact though. I think a G29 with a 357 sig barrel might work, but I'd be just a bit worried about the short rounds in the magazine being completely functional. Realize glock mags are very very different than witness mags, but my witness 10mm mags don't always feed into the 40 bbl I have for it.

 

I'm a big 357 sig fan because it's just unbelievably accurate and most pistols that come in 357 sig are quality rigs (sure that helped my impression of it). My sig 229 rocks, and if I could only have one gun, well I'd have a difficult time choosing any other. I actually have decent luck reloading the 357 sig. The only issues I've had are when I bow out the shoulder by having my seating die improperly shoving against the shoulder (sort of the same issue described but probably for different reasons). I use a 40S&W die to size and prime, follow with a 357 sizing die, seat, then use a lee taper crimp die. That said, 38 super would be easier for me to load because I have a 4 station press and the sig takes 5 stations.

 

Anyhow, the glock 29 seems a step between a normal compact and subcompact glock. I suppose the grip and barrel (as measured from breach face) are a little longer. I'll have to check one out to see how it fits my hands. Versatility may be worth the extra $'s. Do you know if the wolf/EFK sig barrels completely support the case (web)? If so, that would also favor a converted G29 over a G33. Come to think of it, the fact that the 10mm uses large primers and the 357 sig uses small primers is a plus too (could still CCW the G29 with whatever primers I can scrounge).

 

Knew I could depend on you guys to send me in a totally different direction. Though I'd still like to hear if anybody CCW's a witness.

Edited December 18, 2009 by buckandaquarterquarterstaff

[YARP 300]

Buck if I can CCW my Glock 20 (guess it depends on your size and weight, I'm 6'0" 210lbs) I'm sure you can fit a witness 10mm, I use Smartcarry ( http://www.smartcarry.com/ ).

Yup the barrels completely support the case. You will need the finger extension because your pinky finger will just be hanging in space with out it. The only reason I would have one of the small G29 mags w/ finger extension is so that I could carry it as a backup on my ankle.

As far as "snappy" goes with the recoil, it doesn't feel like that much more compared to my GLock 20.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I'll add one more into the mix. M&P compact in 357 sig. That looks like one I'll check out if it can be found. Since I was on the fence between baby glock and compact glock, this looks like it splits the difference and more fully supports the case. Case support IS an issue for me because I almost exclusively shoot reloads. Anyone have comments about the M&P in either 40 or 357?

[ram123 17]

I usually carry a glock 33. The 357sig is a good round other than limited avialbility of ammo and cost.

[Azrial 1,091]

Sorry, no flames on anyone here, but in my opinion...

 

The .357 Sig is a novelty round. It will be history in few short years. I much prefer the more stable and non-bottlenecked .38 Super! It is only marginly less powerful and it a lot easier cartridge to reload.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

While I agree with your points about relative power and ease of reloading, I really think it's the 38 super is the one that is going to fade away. I think that 38 super will eventually be replaced by official factory offerings in 9x23 as a new "designation" for pistols and it will turn take off (but not until "rebranded"). Having cases designated as 38 super +P and warnings about older unsupported chambers (and resulting KB's) makes people shy away from it in my estimation. Also, there are many more factory 357 sig offerings than 38 super. 38 super is sort of a boutique cartridge at the present time, popular with practical pistol types, but not much of a following beyond that. With CCW pistols being a large part of the market, and 38 super mostly absent from those offerings it's not getting much pub. Most of todays pistols probably get dreamed up in terms of having full sized service pistols, compacts, and sub compacts based upon much of the same tooling. 38 super could be used in a subcompact, but we really haven't see that yet.

 

357 sig is pretty easy to reload, and it fits in a 40 frame. Given it penetrates well, has 357 mag level terminal performance (in the lower weight bullets), an increasing number of government agencies using it, it will be around awhile. As a plus 357 sig is very very accurate, and the bottlenosed profile feeds very well getting HP's up and above the bottom edge of most pistol feed ramps. Terminal performance of either 38 super or 357 sig is very impressive.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

The 38 Super +P will actually out step the 357 Sig, depending on who's data you are looking at. 10.9gr of N105 behind a 124gr bullet pushes it out of 5.5" barrel at 1594fps, ref VihtaVuori 3rd Edition manual.

The Sig runs the same bullet at 1502fps. In factory loads, made for unsuported chambers, the 38 Super is probably loaded down quite a bit.

 

Tony

[gunfun 3,931]

I think .38 super sticks around because it has a unique market. Alot of people where I live regularly travel to Mexico. They can't take 9mm .45 acp or anything that is designated as a 'military, round by the mexican govt. they can take .38 supers. Therefore I gun stores in Yakima sell a lot of them.

[eddieb 1]

Sorry, no flames on anyone here, but in my opinion...

 

The .357 Sig is a novelty round. It will be history in few short years. I much prefer the more stable and non-bottlenecked .38 Super! It is only marginly less powerful and it a lot easier cartridge to reload.

 

You're not serious , are you? No where near a novelty round. The Secret Service, many Federal agencies, state agencies, local law enforcement, etc. have transition to 357Sig. It ain't going anywhere. Improved feeding alone will keep it around.

[Azrial 1,091]

Sorry, no flames on anyone here, but in my opinion...

 

The .357 Sig is a novelty round. It will be history in few short years. I much prefer the more stable and non-bottlenecked .38 Super! It is only marginly less powerful and it a lot easier cartridge to reload.

 

You're not serious , are you? No where near a novelty round. The Secret Service, many Federal agencies, state agencies, local law enforcement, etc. have transition to 357Sig. It ain't going anywhere. Improved feeding alone will keep it around.

Absolutely serious.

 

I have no idea where you are getting your info but I have never seen any local law enforcement carrying it. I have read that USSS and FAM are using it, but, whatever. When you have an unlimited budget you can afford to make one mistake after another. Just another Wonder9 and I still think that the .38 Super is a better round.

 

Hey, I could be wrong, check back with me in 10 years and we will see.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I don't buy the better feeding BS of the bottlenecked rounds. They have nose-down feeding tendencies just like the 400 CorBon and 40 Super. The 38 Super has it as well, but it's due to the rim lock issue. That's why I use 38 Super Comp in my guns instead of 38 Super.

 

On the bottle neck cases, you don't have full support of the round beneath it to hold the nose high angle throughout the chambering cycle. As the top round gets stripped out of the mag, it's body slides over the body of the lower round until it meets the shoulder, then it wants to tip down into the valley created by the neck of the round beneath it.

 

I don't have anything against bottle neck rounds, I have several guns that fire them, but the 38 Super Comp running a 125gr bullet at nearly 1600fps is pretty hard to beat.

 

Tony

[eddieb 1]

Very easy internet search. Not exactly mickey mouse agencies. As far as I can determine, no agency, except maybe the US Secret Service, has unlimited budgets. Feeding, penetration, energy, quick follow-up shots make it a great cartridge.

 

# Alameda County

# Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)

# Dallas, Texas Police

# Federal Air Marshals

# Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229

# Keizer Police Department, Oregon

# La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department

# Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee

# Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)

# Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio

# Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office

# Maine Game Wardens (P226)

# Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO

# Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office

# New Jersey Division of Fish & Game

# New Mexico State Police

# Niles Police Dept, Ohio

# Northwood Police Dept, ND

# NC Highway Patrol

# NC Wake County Sheriff's Department

# NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers

# Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)

# Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan

# Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)

# Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)

# Oxford, Mississippi

# Richmond, Virginia

# Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC

# Springfield, IL

# Tennessee Highway Patrol

# Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)

# Texas, DPS

# United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents - P229

# United States Secret Service

# Virginia State Police

 

I've been using bottle neck cartridges for years. I shoot about 2000-3000 rounds per year, and have never had a feed failure. I wonder how many people considered the 9mm, 10mm, .40, .357magnum, etc. novelty cartridges when you had the .45 that worked well?

Edited December 22, 2009 by eddieb

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I don't buy the better feeding BS of the bottlenecked rounds. They have nose-down feeding tendencies just like the 400 CorBon and 40 Super. The 38 Super has it as well, but it's due to the rim lock issue. That's why I use 38 Super Comp in my guns instead of 38 Super.

 

On the bottle neck cases, you don't have full support of the round beneath it to hold the nose high angle throughout the chambering cycle. As the top round gets stripped out of the mag, it's body slides over the body of the lower round until it meets the shoulder, then it wants to tip down into the valley created by the neck of the round beneath it.

 

I don't have anything against bottle neck rounds, I have several guns that fire them, but the 38 Super Comp running a 125gr bullet at nearly 1600fps is pretty hard to beat.

 

Tony

 

Hmm, I just checked out my sig 229 and teh bullet hits the feed ramp before the case gets off the shoulder of the round beneath it. I have a 10mm with a 357 sig conversion barrel that is very prone to the issue you describe though. Must depend on the gun. I'm aiming to get a 357 sig mp40 so I'll be sure to get a snap cap to check it out on that gun prior to taking the plunge. Thx for the info,

 

Buck

[ljv308 3]

You can add the Oklahoma Highway Patrol to the list of 357 SIG users.The 357 SIG Pistol has a big advantage over a 38 super in that it is easily converted to a 40 S&W if so desired..The 38 Super is the novelty cartridge and the 357 SIG is well on the way to becoming "The Standard" for Law Enforcement.The Tennessee Highway Patrol issues the Glock 31 [357SIG] to their officers.How many U.S. State Police Forces are issuing 38 supers to their officers? I rest my case.

I 'll gladly use an auto loading round [357 SIG] that matches the 357 mag revolver cartridge in the 125 grain JHP category.

 

 

My link

Edited December 28, 2009 by ljv308

[ljv308 3]

The 38 Super +P will actually out step the 357 Sig, depending on who's data you are looking at. 10.9gr of N105 behind a 124gr bullet pushes it out of 5.5" barrel at 1594fps, ref VihtaVuori 3rd Edition manual.

The Sig runs the same bullet at 1502fps. In factory loads, made for unsuported chambers, the 38 Super is probably loaded down quite a bit.

 

Tony

 

The majority of DUTY pistols do not have 5.5" length barrels.

These are realistic ballistic numbers for the Glock or SA XD.

 

My link