Help me finish my drinking horn project

[janusthephoenix 24]

Another 'help me' thread from Janus...

 

So I have had this little guy laying around for a while, and now I have the inclination to finish what I have started. Unfortunately, I don't know how to go about it.

'Tis my beer vessel. Ignore the crappy paint pen decoration at the bottom...it is going away as soon as I get ahold of some acetone or something. Now that I have a nice dremel w/ engraving gear, this guy is getting a makeover. I will be engraving...something sweet, I don't know what yet. Perhaps some Elder Futhark runes or maybe even some russian, who knows? But that's not why I'm asking for help.

 

So here's where you guys come in: I would really like to put a metal rim and terminal on this thing. For example, something sort of like this:

Problem is, I know nothing about metalwork. I figure there is something clever I could do with some thin sheet metal of some sort. I have heard of people using copper, pewter, or aluminum. I have no idea where I would get the sheet metal local, though I am sure I could find it online somewhere if I had to. I have no qualms about using epoxy to attach the metal, if that turns out to be the best way to do it. Eventually I plan on sealing the entire inside with beeswax, after I get the metalwork on. So my question is: how would you guys go about this? That is, forming the rim and terminal and attaching them. I have a rough idea of how to go about it, but I want to know specifically how you guys would do it, what tools you would use, which metal you would choose, etc.

 

You guys are an inventive and skillful bunch; I'm looking forward to some good ideas I can steal!

[Bvamp 604]

let me know when its time to test it.....look on google for handcrating jewelry lessons or processes.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

The sort of project you want to undertake requires a great deal of specialized metal working skill, specialized tools, and a great deal of practice. It can be done, but is not recommended for a first time endeavor.

 

It could be done in my workshop, hand fabricated in silver, or silver and gold - but a one off project like that would cost a bloody fortune.

 

Unless you have a pile of money and time to spend on the project, I suggest you look for one someone else has already created.

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

Your warning is noted WS, but you see I am determined. If I get too discouraged with this, I can always go low-tech and stick to dremel engravings and leather straps. In any case, I want to keep this a DIY project.

 

I found the write up that made me want to do this project a couple years ago.

 

http://www.willadsenfamily.org/sca/danr_as/horn-fittings/10th_Century_Norse_Drinking-Horn.pdf

 

It is starting to come back to me now what I had planned. The guy describes forming a rim piece out of sheet brass with little 'tabs' to fold down over the horn rim. I remember looking around for some kind of aluminum (I wanted a silvery metal) with a low enough annealing temperature to where I wouldn't have to have some kind of industrial mega torch to work with it. I will have to re-research this now, I guess. His method also utilizes handmade rivets, which I am not sure at all I want to bother with. Thus, epoxy maybe.

 

Just to clarify, I don't really have aspirations of super-ornate jewelry on this horn, I just want to wrap a piece of sheet metal around the rim and tip.

 

That said, anyone else have any thoughts?

[clifton 354]

Ok,, Im here for you,

 

I used to make custom inlays for 1911 grips, out of semi precious and precious metal... and folks sometimes would like very detailed inlay or objects.. Your horn is super easy...to do pretty much what ever design you would like,, read up a little bit.. and then have some metal working fun...

 

Fur Janus...

 

IF you played with silly puddy,, play do .. epoxy.. or anything else malable and sticky when you were a kid.. you should do just fine.

[BobAsh 582]

I used to do a lot of carved powder horns.

 

I'll post some pics later.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Your warning is noted WS, but you see I am determined. If I get too discouraged with this, I can always go low-tech and stick to dremel engravings and leather straps. In any case, I want to keep this a DIY project.

 

I found the write up that made me want to do this project a couple years ago.

 

http://www.willadsenfamily.org/sca/danr_as/horn-fittings/10th_Century_Norse_Drinking-Horn.pdf

 

It is starting to come back to me now what I had planned. The guy describes forming a rim piece out of sheet brass with little 'tabs' to fold down over the horn rim. I remember looking around for some kind of aluminum (I wanted a silvery metal) with a low enough annealing temperature to where I wouldn't have to have some kind of industrial mega torch to work with it. I will have to re-research this now, I guess. His method also utilizes handmade rivets, which I am not sure at all I want to bother with. Thus, epoxy maybe.

 

Just to clarify, I don't really have aspirations of super-ornate jewelry on this horn, I just want to wrap a piece of sheet metal around the rim and tip.

 

That said, anyone else have any thoughts?

 

If all you need are rims on the top and tip, start by making paper templates that fit, and increase the diameter of the templates by the thickness of the metal. If you don't have the equipment to braze it together, find a metalsmith who does, and have he or she do it. Your object is conical, so mount the top and bottom strips from the bottom up moving it up the conical shape until you have a tight fit. You can take out slack with a plastic or hard rubber mallet. Just be sure the metal is well annealed (dead soft), and that you don't hit it so hard that you break the horn itself. Use epoxy to secure it, and even up any extra horn poking over the top edge carefully with a grinder or mill bastard file, followed with 200, 400, and 600 sand paper.

 

If you arent picky about materials, you can use just about any malleable sheet metal. I would advise going with a 28 gauge soft brass, and making practice rims. When you are certain they will fit, you can go to 28 gauge sterling for your final product. Stay away from any type of lead or cadmium bearing solder, and go with something like a #56 easy silver solder for smooth flow and an excellent seam.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

Let me know when you are ready to polish it.

 

WS

 

Edit: Just saw the post on metal clay. Expensive, lots of issues for this application, and unless you have the contraction ratios just right, attempting to use it for the purpose you are planning could be an expensive nightmare. Apologies to the OP, but I would recommend against using metal clay to create rims.

Edited December 26, 2009 by WaffenSchmied

[janusthephoenix 24]

BobAsh, be sure you do post some pics!

 

Tac 47, thanks for that link! That definitely opens up some new ideas and opportunities! (Elaborate animal head terminal... ) I'm taking a break from researching this stuff to think out loud a bit...I wouldn't be able to fire the PMC/Art Clay directly onto the horn. I think at the very least it would get warped in such high temperatures. That leaves me with the options of buying one of their torches (cheaper than I thought, thankfully) and firing it that way direct onto the horn or firing the clay-metal separately, taking extreme care in measurements in both cases while praying to Jesus that the shrinkage estimates are accurate. I can envision a two piece rim attached with the primitive rivets (then sealed with the wax), if I chose the latter option.

 

Thanks again!

 

Edit: was typing while you posted, WS. Thanks for the pointers, those tips which will be useful if I decide to go the sheet metal route like I had originally planned. The PMC is expensive, the price of the silver would almost certainly downgrade me to bronze or copper. I'm not sure yet if I want to make that concession and take the risks of sinking money and effing it up. I'm still researching and plotting, so I will post whatever I decide and eventually finish.

Edited December 26, 2009 by JanusthePhoenix

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

BobAsh, be sure you do post some pics!

 

Tac 47, thanks for that link! That definitely opens up some new ideas and opportunities! (Elaborate animal head terminal... ) I'm taking a break from researching this stuff to think out loud a bit...I wouldn't be able to fire the PMC/Art Clay directly onto the horn. I think at the very least it would get warped in such high temperatures. That leaves me with the options of buying one of their torches (cheaper than I thought, thankfully) and firing it that way direct onto the horn or firing the clay-metal separately, taking extreme care in measurements in both cases while praying to Jesus that the shrinkage estimates are accurate. I can envision a two piece rim attached with the primitive rivets (then sealed with the wax), if I chose the latter option.

 

Thanks again!

 

LOL!!! You didn't acknowledge my post... OUCH!!! that's ok. I can take the dis. I do this kind of stuff for a living - every day.

 

Enjoy the PMC. I recommend against attempting to fire it 'in situ', but do as you like... Any way you approach it, it's bound to be a learning experience!

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

See above edit to my last post, WS.

 

Running the numbers has certainly done wonders to quell my excitement over the PMC. The 100 gram BronzClay kit runs $36, plus whatever shipping is, plus whatever it would cost me to have it fired or buy a torch to do it myself. That would allow for enough bronze PMC to make a nice ornate terminal. No rim.

 

Meanwhile it looks like a square foot of 24 gauge jeweler's sheet aluminum, bronze or brass will run me >$20 shipped. It appears to be workable with nothing more than gloved hands and tin snips, perhaps a cheap butane torch for light annealing. Hmmm...

 

As tempting as it is to decorate my horn with hundreds of dollars of custom silver or copper work, I think all that can wait. ;

Edited December 26, 2009 by JanusthePhoenix

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

BobAsh, be sure you do post some pics!

 

Tac 47, thanks for that link! That definitely opens up some new ideas and opportunities! (Elaborate animal head terminal... ) I'm taking a break from researching this stuff to think out loud a bit...I wouldn't be able to fire the PMC/Art Clay directly onto the horn. I think at the very least it would get warped in such high temperatures. That leaves me with the options of buying one of their torches (cheaper than I thought, thankfully) and firing it that way direct onto the horn or firing the clay-metal separately, taking extreme care in measurements in both cases while praying to Jesus that the shrinkage estimates are accurate. I can envision a two piece rim attached with the primitive rivets (then sealed with the wax), if I chose the latter option.

 

Thanks again!

 

Edit: was typing while you posted, WS. Thanks for the pointers, those tips which will be useful if I decide to go the sheet metal route like I had originally planned. The PMC is expensive, the price of the silver would almost certainly downgrade me to bronze or copper. I'm not sure yet if I want to make that concession and take the risks of sinking money and effing it up. I'm still researching and plotting, so I will post whatever I decide and eventually finish.

 

If you do decide to go the strip route, there is a quick and dirty way to make a template without having to do a great deal of advance measurement.

 

Use wide strips of regular masking tape to cover the areas you want to surround with metal. Over the masking tape, use blue painters tape around the horn in the same dimensions and area you want to encircle with metal. Wrap a couple of times until you have a workable thickness. Once you are satisfied that you have the area you want "masked' perfectly with the painters tape, using an Exacto knife make a straight vertical cut in the painters tape from top to bottom, and remove the strip as a unit. If you are careful, the masking tape underneath should protect the horn from the knife blade.

 

Voila! Instant custom template. Just lay flat on the sheetmetal you want to use and trace the outline to cut out.

 

PMC is excessively expensive compared to milled sterling silver sheet (order milled sheet from Indian Jewelers Supply in Albuquerque for the best price). You can sell your scrap milled sterling back to IJS or trade it in for credit. Not so with left over PMC. Also, remember that if you fabricate using the actual dimensions, you will not have to sweat shrinkage or deformation during firing.

 

You can probably tell, I am not at all t a fan of PMC. I design and produce hand fabricated precious metal jewelry professionally, and while PMC is fine for art projects and hobbyists, its finished form is granular and brittle. Once it's fired what you get is what you get. If it doesn't turn out right the first time - you're screwed.

 

Once again, good luck!

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

I would like to do silver, but at this point the extra luxury isn't worth the added cost to me. Maybe when I'm a big shot someday I will make a smaller horn with silver sheet rim and a gem-encrusted PMC terminal and use it for coffee, but for now I cannot afford such things.

 

I think at this point I am simply deciding between pewter or aluminum sheet and working out the other details like tools and other materials. WS, thank you for your advice and the write-up on the template; I'll be using that for sure. I was just going to use printer paper or something for that part.

[patriot 7,197]

Don't forget to seal up the inside so it's safe to drink from.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Don't forget to seal up the inside so it's safe to drink from.

 

Yeah, and put something in there that's fit to drink!

 

WS

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I would like to do silver, but at this point the extra luxury isn't worth the added cost to me. Maybe when I'm a big shot someday I will make a smaller horn with silver sheet rim and a gem-encrusted PMC terminal and use it for coffee, but for now I cannot afford such things.

 

I think at this point I am simply deciding between pewter or aluminum sheet and working out the other details like tools and other materials. WS, thank you for your advice and the write-up on the template; I'll be using that for sure. I was just going to use printer paper or something for that part.

 

Hmmm.. Pewter has a relatively low melting point, and Aluminum can be tricky. One thing that did occur to me was to look for metal vessels that already have a size and taper equivalent to the horn you are using. Then, all you would need would be a hacksaw to cut a slice out and you'd be good to go for the rim. Perhaps a metal shot glass with the bottom sawed off, and thimble for the tip to grace the bottom portion

 

It's a thought anyway;)

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

Perhaps a metal shot glass with the bottom sawed off, and thimble for the tip to grace the bottom portion

 

Sounds too easy. I had read from a few sites describing their own horn project that it is easier to find a horn to suit an existing rim than it is to make a rim for your horn. They suggested finding a nice silver bangle or something for the rim, and like you said, a thimble for the terminal. Bah, I say.

 

I'm going with 20 gauge pewter sheet. I have a hard time envisioning that it will be subjected to temperatures anywhere near the melting point of even the beeswax I will be using to seal the inside with. (This seal will be in addition to the food-safe lacquer already on the horn.)

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Perhaps a metal shot glass with the bottom sawed off, and thimble for the tip to grace the bottom portion

 

Sounds too easy. I had read from a few sites describing their own horn project that it is easier to find a horn to suit an existing rim than it is to make a rim for your horn. They suggested finding a nice silver bangle or something for the rim, and like you said, a thimble for the terminal. Bah, I say.

 

I'm going with 20 gauge pewter sheet. I have a hard time envisioning that it will be subjected to temperatures anywhere near the melting point of even the beeswax I will be using to seal the inside with. (This seal will be in addition to the food-safe lacquer already on the horn.)

 

And what will be going in the horn when you're done? Grog, beer, mead, or something more traditionally Scandinavian like frozen Aquavit or Vodka?

 

Just don't tell me you're going to drink white wine out of it

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

And what will be going in the horn when you're done? Grog, beer, mead, or something more traditionally Scandinavian like frozen Aquavit or Vodka?

 

Just don't tell me you're going to drink white wine out of it

 

WS

 

Chai lattés with 1% milk, what else?

 

The horn can fit nearly a full fifth of fluid. Filling it with vodka seems a sure way to get alcohol poisoning. Nope, it will be my beer horn. Maybe I will pick up some fresh mead to try that out...the only mead I have ever had was very old, and I discovered that mead, unlike grape wine, actually gets pretty nasty as it ages.

[janusthephoenix 24]

Finally got to start working on this yesterday. I'm waiting for the epoxy on the rim and terminal to cure now.

 

My thoughts so far:

 

- 20 gauge is a nice, rather workable thickness for the rim, but is a total PITA to shape the terminal with metal that thick. Next time I will go with a thinner sheet.

- I'll consider using pewter wire to make a coiled rim and terminal next time...it would be FAR easier and would still look neat.

- Thanks, Waffen, for the tip about brazing the rim together before I try to epoxy it on. I will be sure to pull my head out of my ass and listen next time.

- Maybe one or two less beers while working on this would have kept me from dropping the horn and cracking it. (Luckily, a minor one.)

- If I'm going to include a ring for attaching a carrying strap to the rim, it may be a good idea to remember to include the ring on the terminal too.

 

So...yeah, it's been a learning experience. I'll post pictures tomorrow after everything is cured and cleaned up.

[Azrial 1,091]

I would cheat...

 

I would find a pre-made perter or silver cup that was close in diameter to the size of my horn at some point near the end. I would then cut the bottom off the cup and fit the two together so that the metal cup becomes the new drinking rim.

 

I would then spray the whole damn thing with the cheapest BBQ paint I could find on sale at Wal-Mart....

 

Not really, I was just taking a cheap shot at WaffenSchmied who despite his obvious expertise in this matter, seems to be getting no love!

Edited January 19, 2010 by Azrial

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Finally got to start working on this yesterday. I'm waiting for the epoxy on the rim and terminal to cure now.

 

My thoughts so far:

 

- 20 gauge is a nice, rather workable thickness for the rim, but is a total PITA to shape the terminal with metal that thick. Next time I will go with a thinner sheet.

- I'll consider using pewter wire to make a coiled rim and terminal next time...it would be FAR easier and would still look neat.

- Thanks, Waffen, for the tip about brazing the rim together before I try to epoxy it on. I will be sure to pull my head out of my ass and listen next time.

- Maybe one or two less beers while working on this would have kept me from dropping the horn and cracking it. (Luckily, a minor one.)

- If I'm going to include a ring for attaching a carrying strap to the rim, it may be a good idea to remember to include the ring on the terminal too.

 

So...yeah, it's been a learning experience. I'll post pictures tomorrow after everything is cured and cleaned up.

 

""Thanks, Waffen, for the tip about brazing the rim together before I try to epoxy it on. I will be sure to pull my head out of my ass and listen next time.""

 

LMAO!!! That seems to be a common problem with many of us.... Looking forward to pics!

 

WS

 

BTW, Azrial is the barbecue fan... I like Duplicolor 500 degree engine paint in low gloss black. But, not for drinking horns;)

 

WS

[janusthephoenix 24]

Here it is. Sorry, 56k'ers. (Does anyone use dial up anymore?)

 

So...obviously I fucked up the metalwork. The original finish was like a mirror, but I went at it with some 1200 grit wet dry and gave it a 'brushed' look so minor flaws and scratches (existing and future) would be less noticeable. Also it looks kind of weathered, beat up and 'antique-y', which is my way of copping out after doing such a horrible job shaping the pieces. I will likely sand it some more to get the 'brushing' more even...there are a few small spots I didn't get so well.

 

Miscellaneous fails include that I forgot to include a tab for attaching the strap later on the terminal, like I mentioned above, so I wrapped a piece of pewter wire around the top of the terminal and decided it looked okay. Also the tab at the top of the terminal makes for the strap fitting on the convex side of the horn, which makes no goddamn ergonomic sense at all. I may just remove it if it pisses me off too much.

 

Despite all the biffs, I am satisfied with how it turned out. (At least for now... ) I especially like how the beeswax polishing on the outside brought out the natural colors of the horn. Also the engraving didn't turn out so bad either, I think. Enjoy the pictures friends, for what they are worth. Thanks again to those who helped me out on this. I know this is a gun forum, not arts and crafts, and I appreciate that some of you contributed anyway. Cheers, all!

Edited January 19, 2010 by JanusthePhoenix

[BpS12 512]

Heilsa Janus,

 

Sorry I'm late to the thread. Have you checked out some of the Heathen/Asatru websites like the AFA at www.runestone.org, or www.northvegr.org. Shoot guy, you can even try sca.org (Society for Creative Anachronism). Lots of info is out there. Also, the problem with Beeswax is NO HOT BEVERAGES. But if it's Beer only this wont be a problem. The few I've done and most those of my Kinsmen, were "cured" with cheap, rotgut Vodka for a few days and rinsed thoroughly.

 

As for the metal work, Make an aluminum foil pattern and then trace it on and cut out the metal. Leaving a little extra to roll over the top makes for a nice lip as well.

 

Good luck,

Mikel

[BobAsh 582]

What is the point of the wax?

 

Horn is very safe as a vessel and a traditional material for such, as well as cooking and eating utensils.

 

I forgot about this thread...I'll have to make a note to take some pics tonight.

[RobRez 1,895]

It looks like the dinosaur is crying....is he sad because you haven't filled it with beer yet?

[janusthephoenix 24]

It looks like the dinosaur is crying....is he sad because you haven't filled it with beer yet?

Ha! I hadn't looked at it like that before.

Here is the original screenshot from Metalocalypse that I based it on. Obviously after being hand-sketched, resized, transferred to the horn, and redrawn again with a relatively unfamiliar tool, he went through some cosmetic changes when compared to the original. I still like it.

 

What is the point of the wax?

When researching this project, I read that some people do leave the horn as is, some use a food-safe polyurethane, and most other people use beeswax. I started with the polyurethane, but then decided that I didn't feel comfortable drinking out of it even though it is 'food safe' after curing. Beeswax is what the vikings used anyway. Looking forward to your pics!

[G O B 3,516]

Maybe I missed a post, but what metal did you use? I ask, because you may be able to use common plumbing silver solder to pretty up the seams. Cut the end of a brass bar to look like the top of an obelisk (Washington Monument) and use a torch to heat till it melts solder freely. Use the smallest area of the tip possible and allow the heat to transfer to the work only enough to melt the solder. Do not put the solder on either the tip or the work, but the intersection of the two, and drag it back slightly on the work to ensure that the work is hot enough to melt it, and to fill the gap. If the work is too hot the solder will run off, but with a bit of practice you can get it to act like modeling clay and fill some rather large gaps. I have repaired some nasty cracks in radiators this way over the years.

[janusthephoenix 24]

Maybe I missed a post, but what metal did you use? I ask, because you may be able to use common plumbing silver solder to pretty up the seams. Cut the end of a brass bar to look like the top of an obelisk (Washington Monument) and use a torch to heat till it melts solder freely. Use the smallest area of the tip possible and allow the heat to transfer to the work only enough to melt the solder. Do not put the solder on either the tip or the work, but the intersection of the two, and drag it back slightly on the work to ensure that the work is hot enough to melt it, and to fill the gap. If the work is too hot the solder will run off, but with a bit of practice you can get it to act like modeling clay and fill some rather large gaps. I have repaired some nasty cracks in radiators this way over the years.

 

Interesting, thanks! I used sheet pewter, and I also have some pewter wire left over. Can you think of any reason why I couldn't use that for solder?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Maybe I missed a post, but what metal did you use? I ask, because you may be able to use common plumbing silver solder to pretty up the seams. Cut the end of a brass bar to look like the top of an obelisk (Washington Monument) and use a torch to heat till it melts solder freely. Use the smallest area of the tip possible and allow the heat to transfer to the work only enough to melt the solder. Do not put the solder on either the tip or the work, but the intersection of the two, and drag it back slightly on the work to ensure that the work is hot enough to melt it, and to fill the gap. If the work is too hot the solder will run off, but with a bit of practice you can get it to act like modeling clay and fill some rather large gaps. I have repaired some nasty cracks in radiators this way over the years.

 

Interesting, thanks! I used sheet pewter, and I also have some pewter wire left over. Can you think of any reason why I couldn't use that for solder?

 

The solder has to have a lower melting point than the sheet. Otherwise you end up with a molten blob.... Pewter has a fairly low melting point. You'll want to check the melting point of the sheet, and make sure your chosen solder flows at a lower temperature.

 

A silver solder won't work, but a silver bearing solder like "Stay Bright" might. You will also want to make sure your solder is non toxic, and doesn't contain metals like lead or cadmium.

 

From the looks of things, your metal is at least 1/16" short of a a good joint. You may want to chalk the first attempt up to experience, and start again.

 

WS

[BobAsh 582]

OK I found them in the attic.

 

So this first one started out as a drinking horn...I used to make a lot of carved powder horns and wanted to make something fun just for show. Eventually I liked it so well I converted it to a powder horn just so I could use it more. Here it is in it's final configuration.

 

 

Here's some details showing the carved tip, end piece and scrimshaw

 

 

When it was a drinking horn I had an antler handle on it. In this pic you can picture how it worked; I cut about 6" off the big end to make it a powder horn

 

 

And some details of the antler crown, which I carved into a lion's head

 

 

Here's a buffalo powder horn that I made for my first wife. We split up before I finished it and she never got it.

 

 

The end cap is made of a burned up piece of burl I found when backpacking through an area that had been a forest fire.

 

And lastly, an antler knife handle I made in the likeness of my dog, a staffy terrier.