mrwgafun 1 Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I'm sorry if this is a duplicate post. I want to buy my first Saiga next week. I would like either a 223 or 5.45. If I scope my Saiga will I be able to get 1 inch groups at 100 yards? I want to know if the rifle is capable of that? If not what about the 5.45? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry if this is a duplicate post. I want to buy my first Saiga next week. I would like either a 223 or 5.45. If I scope my Saiga will I be able to get 1 inch groups at 100 yards? I want to know if the rifle is capable of that? If not what about the 5.45? It will depend on the individual rifle, and your skill level. But I'd probably expect something more like 2-2.5 inches from a 5.45 or 223 Saiga, assuming a good shooter. That level of accuracy would be plenty enough for me, and for almost any use of the rifle you could think of. I know that my own 5.45 can shoot 2.5 inches with an unmagnified red dot; I'd love to see what it could do with a 4x scope, which I've been thinking about buying. I think it's possible that with a sling, a scope, and shooting from the prone position, I _might_ could obtain 1.5 inches out of it. Why do you want groups as small as one inch? What purposes do you plan to use your rifle for? EDITED TO ADD: I would expect lesser accuracy from the unconverted Saiga. The trigger is much nicer after you convert (restore) it. Edited December 31, 2009 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I have two .223's. I'd expect the 5.45 to be about the same. The advantage the .223 has over the 5.45 concerning accuracy is that there is so much more variety and match grade ammo for .224/5.56. 5.45 has a lot more acquisition challenges if you want to improve over military surplus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrwgafun 1 Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Thanks for the info. I just can't decide which to get. Your point about the variety available for .223 is a good one. The reason I would like to get small groups is purely the challenge. I'm a fairly new shooter (started about1 1/2 years). I don't hunt at all. But, I do get a kick out of being able to shoot the bulls eye. I'm able to do it with my 1022 @ 50 yards. I want to be able to do it at 100. One last question. On the RAA website it says the rifle is .223 (5.56). Is it really capable of shooting 5.56 safely? My understanding is it is OK to use .223 in a rifle chambered for 5.56. It is not recommended to use 5.56 in a rifle chambered in .223 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Thanks for the info. I just can't decide which to get. Your point about the variety available for .223 is a good one. The reason I would like to get small groups is purely the challenge. I'm a fairly new shooter (started about1 1/2 years). I don't hunt at all. But, I do get a kick out of being able to shoot the bulls eye. I'm able to do it with my 1022 @ 50 yards. I want to be able to do it at 100. Just make your bullseyes larger! Seriously, the Saigas tend to be pretty accurate, but they are not target rifles. They're for killing bad guys reliably. A gun capable of 2-4 inches at 100 yards will do that nicely. Maybe an AR or bolt gun would be more your style? One last question. On the RAA website it says the rifle is .223 (5.56). Is it really capable of shooting 5.56 safely? My understanding is it is OK to use .223 in a rifle chambered for 5.56. It is not recommended to use 5.56 in a rifle chambered in .223 The Saiga will munch down 5.56 and ask for more. Its designation as a "223" is mostly a politician-pleasing marketing decision. Jim Edited January 8, 2010 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BKLYN_C 14 Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 Thanks for the info. I just can't decide which to get. Your point about the variety available for .223 is a good one. The reason I would like to get small groups is purely the challenge. I'm a fairly new shooter (started about1 1/2 years). I don't hunt at all. But, I do get a kick out of being able to shoot the bulls eye. I'm able to do it with my 1022 @ 50 yards. I want to be able to do it at 100. Just make your bullseyes larger! Seriously, the Saigas tend to be pretty accurate, but they are not target rifles. They're for killing bad guys reliably. A gun capable of 2-4 inches at 100 yards will do that nicely. Maybe an AR or bolt gun would be more your style? One last question. On the RAA website it says the rifle is .223 (5.56). Is it really capable of shooting 5.56 safely? My understanding is it is OK to use .223 in a rifle chambered for 5.56. It is not recommended to use 5.56 in a rifle chambered in .223 The Saiga will munch down 5.56 and ask for more. Its designation as a "223" is mostly a politician-pleasing marketing decision. Jim Guys, not too many mass production rifles are capable of 1" @100' or 1 MOA which are almost identical. Saiga 223 is a variant of the most produced rifle in the world. And thats for a reason. Dont expect your ANY Saiga to hit 1 MOA, but expect it to go bang every time you pull the trigger and do 3-4 MOA all day long with Wolf ammo. Its a trade-off which millions of people are willing to take. And if you want a match semi-auto rifle - go for AR, but expect to spend something in a range of $2K. However, its not very uncommon to see an AK/Saiga which is capable of sub MOA, but thats just a pure luck to stumble upon such rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 Some points. . . 3 MOA is a lot more accurate in practical purposes than it sounds. My Saiga seems to shoot as well as any generic AR. If you plan on shooting steel cased .223, then you might as well get a 5.45 and shoot surplus ammo. It's cheeper, though corrosive to exposed steel. A Vepr is supposed to be more accurate than Saiga's, but you'll be spending a $1000 for one. Part of sacrificing accuracy is ensuring reliability. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 I think the 3-4 inch mark is good enough at 100 yards it's hard to call it self defense in my area when your that far but hey. The usefulness and reliability of this platform is the reason for purchase. Small mods to improve accuracy are available, but I do not have the money for that investment, if I did want to shoot 1 hole with 10 rounds a nice bolt action with glass would be my style. But when SHTF I just want lead down range whenever neccessary...that's why I love my Saiga! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lashlarue 1 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Check the last page of your instruction manual, at least mine was test fired and the grouping in mm's is shown and signed off by the tech Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JulianH 4 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 If you're willing to experiment with different loads, you may find a .223 is very accurate. AkSarBen has posted groups under 1/4" @ 100 yards with tuned hand loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
m1key 7 Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Some of you folks don't have very high expectations of the AK platform. Either that, or y'all ain't very good shots. My UNCONVERTED Saiga 5.45 will shoot 1.3-1.4 MOA with iron sights using Wolf 60 fmj and Bulgarian WASP ammo, crappy trigger and all. Edited February 17, 2010 by m1key Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dobravery 49 Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Some of you folks don't have very high expectations of the AK platform. Either that, or y'all ain't very good shots. My UNCONVERTED Saiga 5.45 will shoot 1.3-1.4 MOA with iron sights using Wolf 60 fmj and Bulgarian WASP ammo, crappy trigger and all. That means your putting all rounds into 3/4" (width of a pinky) at 50yds with a 16" barrel sight radius. Even if I had eagle eyes, the ugly chunk of metal I call my front sight post wouldn't let me do that. If you did that at 100yds, then I'm amazed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 m1Key.. Post some pics of this.. I just ordered one and would love to see... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
m1key 7 Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 (edited) m1Key.. Post some pics of this.. I just ordered one and would love to see... I apologize. It's been awhile since I shot those groups. I checked my targets and realize I was using a 3X Weaver scope, not irons. I'll see if I can dig up a photo. I have shot 5.45 groups almost that good with irons...but it was with an Arsenal SLR-105 and Silver Bear 60fmj. IMO, the 5.45x39 is the most inherently accurate factory round out of an AK. You won't be disappointed with the Saiga. Edited February 22, 2010 by m1key Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cruddymutt 1 Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I was out coyote hunting this past sunday and we had a crow that would not STF up. My friend ranged him at 175 to 200 yards with our POS rangefinder. I took aim and fired and smoked him with a head shot. I know my Saiga is accurate but even this suprised me. 16 inch barrel .223 converted with a 4x scope and Hornady 55gr V-MAX bullets. If that isnt accurate enough then I dont know what is. Just checked my manual and mine is 138mm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Cruddy.. What type/brand of 4x scope did you use?? Trying to find a under $100 scope.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I was out coyote hunting this past sunday and we had a crow that would not STF up. My friend ranged him at 175 to 200 yards with our POS rangefinder. I took aim and fired and smoked him with a head shot. I know my Saiga is accurate but even this suprised me. 16 inch barrel .223 converted with a 4x scope and Hornady 55gr V-MAX bullets. If that isnt accurate enough then I dont know what is. Just checked my manual and mine is 138mm. I think the .223 Saigas are the most accurate. I thought mine was on par with my 5.45, but a little more range work, firing both side by side, convinces me that the .223 is noticeably superior. My .223 was just supposed to be a backup gun in case of ammo supply problems with the 5.45, but I think I'll be wanting to shoot it a bit more than I had intended. An accurate gun is a fun gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Afrikaner 2 Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Saigas are pretty accurate for what they are. Consider that you are spending less than $400 on the rifle. If you want a DMR type rifle, the it is for you. If you want a target semi-auto, then look at AR's. Got a new (to me) saiga .223 this past week and took it to the range this weekend. It was shooting Minute of Pie plate at 100 yards all day long... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cruddymutt 1 Posted February 26, 2010 Report Share Posted February 26, 2010 I am using a Walmart special Centerpoint 4-16x42 scope. It has dual color illuminated reticles. I think it cost about $70 and it comes with rings. I have the UTG quick release scope mount. I bought the scope because the .223 was originally for my daughter. Figured why buy an expensive scope for her to drop. Ive been very impressed with it so far. I have the same one on my S308 also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
86250rrippin 16 Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) i was shooting my crappy trigger(doesnt always reset) 5.45 saiga last week with a cheapo scope and it was all over the place @ 100yards. i slid the scope off and i was grouping 3-4 inch groups with the irons. never tried the irons past 50 yards before !! im thinking about a better rear sight and go old school on this rifle. the orange bull was 3" so the rounds were all right in or on edges. i have an ar also but i built it with no irons so i cant compare them. that puts the rounds in a torso at 300 yards if you do your job.......... thats plenty good for what they are Edited April 14, 2012 by 86250rrippin 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jaba1017 71 Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry if this is a duplicate post. I want to buy my first Saiga next week. I would like either a 223 or 5.45. If I scope my Saiga will I be able to get 1 inch groups at 100 yards? I want to know if the rifle is capable of that? If not what about the 5.45? According to Izhmash the .308 and the .223 are the two most accurate calibers in the AK 100 line. They report the .308 as capable of 40 to 45mm 10 round groups at 100 meters which would be approx. 1.5 to 2 inches. They don't give a number for the .223 but say only that it is about 20% more accurate than the 7.62x39. As I understand it the military standard for the AKM is 66mm at a 100m, or about 2.5 inches. A 20% improvement would be 2 inches. I wouldn't expect any better than that even the rifle was locked down in a vice. If you want a 1 MOA rifle then an AK probably isn't your choice. The certificate which came with my Saiga .223 certified it at 128mm or 5 inches for a 4 shot group. 128mm is the largest spread between POI. So that could mean 3 went in one hole and one was 5 inches away. With iron sights at 100m from a rest it does 4 to 5 inch groups. Or to be more exact I can hit a 6 inch target with boring consistency. I only have 250 rounds through it. I expect to tighten up once its broken in and I have an optic on it. The certificate which came my Saiga 7.62x39 certified it at 121 mm. With a 4x POSP at a 100m it will put 3 or 4 shots within 1.5 inches with 10 within 2.5 to 3 inches with a couple of flyers or misses in the group. Here is an example for my 7.62x39 on a 3 inch target at approx. 100m, probably closer to 106 yards. I'll post something for .223 once I get it broke in and have the optic on it. Edited April 14, 2012 by Jaba1017 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 I did this last night, with my IZ 114. I have a Vortex flash hider on it, which I mention only because SEI claims improved accuracy. I was shooting at 100 yds, from the bench, resting on my range bag. I used the irons through my PA micro for the cold bore 3 shot group, then flipped on the optic for the second circled group. Then I shot for bull, left upper bull, then right upper bull. I used 62 gr FMJ Wolf MC. Walked up and adjusted, then started playing with the gongs at 150 and 200. Making music all evening. So this is representative of an UNmagnified RDS on top of a S-223. Granted, there was some internal work involved too, and a JTE power mainspring, which I think makes a WORLD of difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted April 14, 2012 Report Share Posted April 14, 2012 According to Izhmash the .308 and the .223 are the two most accurate calibers in the AK 100 line. My experience matches that closely. I've shot a good deal with all four Saiga rifle calibers, and I would rank them accurate to least accurate .308, .223, 5.45, 7.62x39. 223 and 5.45 can get about the same size groups, but it just seems easier with the 223. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dr028 1 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Here are my first results with my Saiga MK .223 and G3 rear sight, trying to sight it in (more info here: http://forum.saiga-1...sight-on-rifle/ ). I am pretty new to rifle shooting, lots of room for shooter error here! Setup: 100m, target: black is 20 cm diameter, Barnaul 55gr and 62 gr FMJ (dont recall which for which group), laying, supported on a double mag setup against a wooden border, just before range was closing (time constraint), including running back an forth to check results. 3 Groups: 1) 8 shot group: 8,5x8 cm -> 2,9 MOA 2) 6 shot group: 5x2 cm -> 1,8 MOA (excluded one flyer on top of target, which belonged to that group) 3) 6 shots rushed and I changed from 200 to 300 meter setting in between, not sure after how many shots. likely: 4,5x8,5 cm Edited April 17, 2012 by dr028 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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