Double Tap Ammo at the range

[my762buzz 141]

I managed to get a chance to visit the public rifle range.

I got there when it was 30 something degrees F.

The first thing I was able to accomplish before dozens of people showed up

was to shoot water juggs. The first jugg was hit with a FMJ, the next with a wolf black box hollow point, the next with a military classic (8m3 bullet) hollow point, and finally with a double tap (hornady vmax bullet).

The FMJ impact did not appear to result in much destruction.

The Wolf black box hp, the military classic hp ,and the doubletap created more disruption with exponential increases in that order.

Heres a video

 

I used an IOR scope mount with a bushnell 4x12x40 scope.

I then began to sight in for groups starting at 25 yards working out to

100 yards. My IOR scope mount began to malfunction after an hour.

I am not sure when it actually began to creep forward before it finally bent

completely. Given that, my first 5 shot group while sighting in was 1.5 inches with my Saiga using double tap ammo. However, my scope mount might have played some factor with movement forward and my hands were close to numb from the weather so it wasn't my best steady sandbag technique with such a lite rifle.

 

My next sighting in was with my Vepr. Scope mount reinstalled and resighted.

I planned to get a few groups with this rifle and then video tape the last two groups. My first 5 shot group began with 3 shots .75 inches apart and then the last two shots opened the group to slightly over 1 inch. My second 5 shot group opened up to 1.25 inches. My 3rd group started fine but suddenly was off the paper. I checked my scope mount and saw that it slipped forward and the stud that was suppose to prevent forward movement was bent. I have given up on sidemounts. Time for a texas dog leg mount.

[my762buzz 141]

 

 

 

 

[kdbutler 563]

Nice write-up! The video was a bonus. I barely noticed the FMJ bullet impact!

 

Any chance of another report, with recovered fired bullets?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Kevin in Texas

[rifleshooter474 2]

Is this the IOR scope mounts you were using?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/ior_rings.htm

[my762buzz 141]

Nice write-up! The video was a bonus. I barely noticed the FMJ bullet impact!

 

Any chance of another report, with recovered fired bullets?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

Yes, I am planning on shooting water juggs and wet news paper/phone books.

I may try and use plywood to stop the resulting bullet parts from going any further.

There was so much crap on that public range I couldn't see where the bullet frangments went.

Brassfetcher did a gel test with the same hornady vmax bullet

http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Manufacturing%20123gr%20Hornady%20V-Max.html

Penetrated to 11.9",

Bullet core recovered at 0.609" average diameter.

Of course water by itself causes far more violent expansion.

[my762buzz 141]

Is this the IOR scope mounts you were using?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/ior_rings.htm

The link does not work for me. I think that its the one though. They stopped impoorting that mount sometime back.

I got mine years ago. Its built very well but not perfect apparently.

[kdbutler 563]

Thanks.

Yes, I am planning on shooting water juggs and wet news paper/phone books.

I may try and use plywood to stop the resulting bullet parts from going any further.

There was so much crap on that public range I couldn't see where the bullet frangments went.

Brassfetcher did a gel test with the same hornady vmax bullet

http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Manufacturing%20123gr%20Hornady%20V-Max.html

Penetrated to 11.9",

Bullet core recovered at 0.609" average diameter.

Of course water by itself causes far more violent expansion.

 

Neat. I can't wait.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Wonder how well it penetrates on hardened targets. Talking to a couple of LEOs they are telling me they are seeing way too many type II and III vests on some seriously uncool bgs in the last few years since Katrina, funny how that doesn't make the news isn't it. Tell ya I just dont know how they do that job, apparently Xanax is in large demand in that occupation, but I digress.

 

Anyway gel is fine but boar hide and vests are tough so Im sort of unsure on hunting/SD ammo for the x39 which I would prefer be the same. Right now Im using Remington Core-Lokt Soft Point for the job works fine of course but splitting hairs seems to be what we do for fun.

 

Edit : Bah my memory is the pits correction noted.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[my762buzz 141]

Wonder how well it penetrates on hardened targets. Talking to a couple of LEOs they are telling me they are seeing way too many type II and III vests on some seriously uncool bgs in the last few years since Katrina, funny how that doesn't make the news isn't it. Tell ya I just dont know how they do that job, apparently Xanax is in large demand in that occupation, but I digress.

 

Anyway gel is fine but boar hide and vests are tough so Im sort of unsure on hunting/SD ammo for the x39 which I would prefer be the same. Right now Im using Remington Core-Lokt Soft Point for the job works fine of course but splitting hairs seems to be what we do for fun.

 

Edit : Bah my memory is the pits correction noted.

Plastic

 

Plastic tip ammo has no problem penetrating kevlar.

SS 196

SS 196 versus kevlar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KVcWqxi0EQ

7.62x39 is moving faster than ss 196

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm

SS196SR (sporting round)

The SS196 cartridge was introduced in 2005.[27] It features a 2.6 g (40 grain) Hornady V-Max bullet which it propels at a velocity of roughly 1650 ft/s when fired from the Five-seven.[27] The polycarbonate tip used in the V-Max bullet acts as a wedge, enhancing expansion of the bullet.

[my762buzz 141]

Wonder how well it penetrates on hardened targets. Talking to a couple of LEOs they are telling me they are seeing way too many type II and III vests on some seriously uncool bgs in the last few years since Katrina, funny how that doesn't make the news isn't it. Tell ya I just dont know how they do that job, apparently Xanax is in large demand in that occupation, but I digress.

 

Anyway gel is fine but boar hide and vests are tough so Im sort of unsure on hunting/SD ammo for the x39 which I would prefer be the same. Right now Im using Remington Core-Lokt Soft Point for the job works fine of course but splitting hairs seems to be what we do for fun.

 

Edit : Bah my memory is the pits correction noted.

 

 

 

I will offer to shoot any vest or material you might be interested in sending to me to be shot with 7.62x39 double tap. Shipping is on your dime.

I am planning on trying to find some steel plates to shoot with both FMJ, 8M3 HP, and Double tap.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Wonder how well it penetrates on hardened targets. Talking to a couple of LEOs they are telling me they are seeing way too many type II and III vests on some seriously uncool bgs in the last few years since Katrina, funny how that doesn't make the news isn't it. Tell ya I just dont know how they do that job, apparently Xanax is in large demand in that occupation, but I digress.

 

Anyway gel is fine but boar hide and vests are tough so Im sort of unsure on hunting/SD ammo for the x39 which I would prefer be the same. Right now Im using Remington Core-Lokt Soft Point for the job works fine of course but splitting hairs seems to be what we do for fun.

 

Edit : Bah my memory is the pits correction noted.

 

 

 

I will offer to shoot any vest or material you might be interested in sending to me to be shot with 7.62x39 double tap. Shipping is on your dime.

I am planning on trying to find some steel plates to shoot with both FMJ, 8M3 HP, and Double tap.

 

Heh heck I would also if I could afford another type III. Steel plates will pretty well stop a 30 cal at anything over a quarter inch thick. Even AP in x39 wouldn't be a good bet depending on the quality of steel. Box of truth did some tests on type III though not of that round, he used FMJ IIRC. Just wondered if you knew of a source already on the DT.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

Edited January 4, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[my762buzz 141]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you see the 4th jugg blow up in the you tube video link?

$24 for a box of 20

Edited January 4, 2010 by my762buzz

[my762buzz 141]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have blown up water juggs in the past with .223 balistic tips, hollow points, and m193.

I don't ever remember a jugg blow up that much as the 7.62x39 dt did.

I have heard people argue for years that most russian 7.62x39 bullets don't expand well enough except for saspan/military classic 8m3 fragmenting like crazy.

Thats why I think this is a fantastic ammo development for 7.62x39. If Washington ever decides to finally call in their political capital and screw the imported ammo

market, we are going to need a good supplier stateside. I guess thats also why I hope to see domestic ammo supply increase in this caliber.

[Mofeen 0]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you see the 4th jugg blow up in the you tube video link?

$24 for a box of 20

 

 

 

Yes. And now thanks to you, I have found my home defense round of choice!!!!!

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

 

Did you see the 4th jugg blow up in the you tube video link?

$24 for a box of 20

 

Yep, I did. I also saw what happened to the 3rd jug when the Wolf MC JHP hit it, (Barnaul JHP rounds are a little more destructive).

 

It's too bad that the 4th jug left the frame, I would've been interested to see how far it was flung.

 

So, let's say that the Double Tap is a tiny bit more destructive than Russian ammo, even Barnaul.. is it 5x more effective? Of course not, and yet it costs more than 5x as much per round. Not even remotely worth it, imo. ymmv

 

Cool video though, and thanks for sharing your results.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...If Washington ever decides to finally call in their political capital and screw the imported ammo

market, we are going to need a good supplier stateside. I guess thats also why I hope to see domestic ammo supply increase in this caliber.

 

I completely agree, but it'd be nice if they could get the cost of their domestic 7.62 down to under a buck a round.

Edited January 5, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[my762buzz 141]

Yeah, JHP 7.62x39 makes short work of jugs of water, (even if they're hard-frozen). I get similar results with Brown Bear JHP.

 

How much does that Double Tap run? I tend to doubt that any marginal advantage in performance is worth the difference in price between it and Barnaul ammo. *shrug*

 

Did you see the 4th jugg blow up in the you tube video link?

$24 for a box of 20

 

Yep, I did. I also saw what happened to the 3rd jug when the Wolf MC JHP hit it, (Barnaul JHP rounds are a little more destructive).

 

It's too bad that the 4th jug left the frame, I would've been interested to see how far it was flung.

 

So, let's say that the Double Tap is a tiny bit more destructive than Russian ammo, even Barnaul.. is it 5x more effective? Of course not, and yet it costs more than 5x as much per round. Not even remotely worth it, imo. ymmv

 

Cool video though, and thanks for sharing your results.

The DT IIRC sent pieces of the jugg 15 feet away.

The next time I go blow up some more juggs I will take along some DT, MC HP, and BB HP.

I will measure the farthest pieces from the point of impact.

If I can get a decent scope mount soon enough, I might try shooting the juggs as far as possible.

[my762buzz 141]

Well I got ahold of some Brown Bear HP. I got a new scope mount on the way also.

When I get out to shoot again, I plan on using water juggs with colored water to make it esier to see.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2010 by my762buzz

[paprotective 362]

<P>The Wolf Mil Classic HP may have changed abit.. I have some boxes with the RED sealent/stripe and some without.. Don't know if that means anything.. <BR><BR>I did notice the bottom of the box has SA02 (with sealent/stripe type) and SA03 (no sealent/stripe type). Again this is what I've seen..</P>

<P>Also...<BR><BR>Maybe toss in 1 box of Golden Tiger FMJ as that for under $200/1000 seems to hold my interest at the moment COST wise and I'm sure others here also (for price).. $240/1000 for the Wolf Mil Classic HP seems abit HIGH at the moment.. Maybe I'll get 500/500 mix of these and balance my wallet in the process... </P>

Edited January 28, 2010 by YWHIC--OutOfLine

[Twinsen 86]

To liken the effect on water to the effect on flesh, you divide by two in distance. So a bullet that opens up very quickly in half a foot of water will be opened up very quickly in three inches of flesh. For handgun calibers, FBI standardized a 12-14" penetration with maximum power distribution in that distance to be ideal. If you think something that opens up as quickly as possible, such as within three inches is the best possible option, you are looking for an effective varmint round for killing small game. Also, a lot of FMJ military ammunition is more effective than the JHP versions of the same cartridge has, as they induce more yaw on target.

 

However, since I've only seen what the bullet is going to do for three inches, I can't say that these bullets don't do more damage in the first three inches AND more for another foot and a half. You might be right on. I say line some juggs up and find out if some of them open up too quickly.

[my762buzz 141]

To liken the effect on water to the effect on flesh, you divide by two in distance. So a bullet that opens up very quickly in half a foot of water will be opened up very quickly in three inches of flesh. For handgun calibers, FBI standardized a 12-14" penetration with maximum power distribution in that distance to be ideal. If you think something that opens up as quickly as possible, such as within three inches is the best possible option, you are looking for an effective varmint round for killing small game. Also, a lot of FMJ military ammunition is more effective than the JHP versions of the same cartridge has, as they induce more yaw on target.

 

 

 

 

 

However, since I've only seen what the bullet is going to do for three inches, I can't say that these bullets don't do more damage in the first three inches AND more for another foot and a half. You might be right on. I say line some juggs up and find out if some of them open up too quickly.

 

Hornady .310 123 gr vmax are not varmint bullets. Hornady purposely designed them to give an optimum terminal effect in human tissue from a 7.62x39 cartridge

average velocity.

Right from the double tap site:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=267

A very good expanding round for personal defense and small to medium game for your 7.62x39! The best round available for personal defense for your 7.62x39! Super accurate and really hits hard.

 

 

 

 

I don't even think anything else even comes close other than corbon loadings. These bullets have been independently tested by brassfetcher

in ballistic gel. http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Manufacturing%20123gr%20Hornady%20V-Max.html

Penetrated 11.9 inches in ballistic gel At 1 inch inward, it opens a massive 8 inch long central cavity with radial fragmentation which appears to extend as much as

4 inches from the center axis. Following the FBI 12 inch standard, this bullet design expends all of its energy efficiently within 12 inches to provide maximum

tissue disruption. If a bullet were to exit, you would have wasted energy which is less likely with this specific design.

 

 

Compare to MK262 the 5.56 77gr match ammo the marines rave about being able to drop bad guys much faster

than convential 55 or 62 grain 5.56

 

 

The hornady vmax 7.62x39 .310 bullet even looks like it has very similar terminal effects like the 6.8 spc.

 

I really don't think you can make it more effective that this. All the penetration you need and all the lateral tissue disruption

physically possible. There is no left over energy to create any additional tissue disruption. This also makes it a prime candidate

for home defense if somemone insists on using a 7.62x39 carbine. The bullet is far less likely to exit a badguy. Hell, even 00 buckshot

penetrates 16 inches in ballistic gel which means that double tap 7.62x39 is less likely

to exit the sob than 00 buck if we follow the ballistic gel logic. I don't think it gets any better than this without maybe using

semtex or C4 tipped bullets which would cut someone in half upon impact and no one is going to be able to get at walmart anytime soon.

Edited January 30, 2010 by my762buzz