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922r clarification question: Should be simple YES/No


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#1 christcorp

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 04:25 PM

After reading all the rules, regs, and posts; I'm pretty sure I understand the 922r issue pretty well. At least for "My Needs". I have a basic 3 part question that I'm hoping can be answered simply. Mind you; I'm not too concerned with 922r, because in the real world, no ATF individual is going to be coming around monitoring weapons. And most wouldn't know the difference between a Saiga with a pistol grip and 30 round mag and a standard Romanian AK with 30 round mag which is totally legal under 922r, because that's the way it was modified prior to selling. And in the real world; should a 30 round magazine be required because of a total break down in society; law enforcement, atf, etc... most definitely won't give a crap about 922r regulations. There will be much more important things to worry about. But for my own curiosity, and in case I run into the "ANAL POS" at the range who thinks it's their job to police regulations and I want to know what to hide or expose; here's my 2 questions.

1. If I buy a Tapco pistol grip T-6 stock and install it: That's 1 part USA 922r; and if I use a Surefire 30 round mag: That's 3 more parts USA 922r: That reduces the imported parts count by 4, making it a total of 10, and THUS; my Saiga .223 is perfectly legal? Correct???

2. If for some reason I decide to use the stock issued 10 round magazine that came with the Saiga, at the range; then I have increased the imported parts by 3 again; bringing the total import parts to 13; and thus being it's UNDER 14 and over 10; and no longer a SPORTER rifle because of the pistol grip Tapco T-6 stock; it is now out of 922r compliance? Correct?????

3. If I leave my saiga as STOCK; then using an American or Imported 30 round magazine is against 922r, because hi-cap magazines also change a weapon from being a sporter to the military style which is under 922r regulation? Is that the consensus? Thanks... Mike.....
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#2 nalioth

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 04:42 PM

1. If I buy a Tapco pistol grip T-6 stock and install it: That's 1 part USA 922r; and if I use a Surefire 30 round mag: That's 3 more parts USA 922r: That reduces the imported parts count by 4, making it a total of 10, and THUS; my Saiga .223 is perfectly legal? Correct???


No. Yes. Maybe. SayWhat?

When you install the stock, your rifle will have 15 countable parts. The stock will have TWO USA made parts. Your math is correct, but your explanation of it sucks and will confuse folks.

2. If for some reason I decide to use the stock issued 10 round magazine that came with the Saiga, at the range; then I have increased the imported parts by 3 again; bringing the total import parts to 13; and thus being it's UNDER 14 and over 10; and no longer a SPORTER rifle because of the pistol grip Tapco T-6 stock; it is now out of 922r compliance? Correct?????

No. Yes. Maybe.
Unless you install more than one of the following or use a "non sporting magazine", your rifle is not in violation of 922r.

• grenade launcher
• pistol grip
• threaded muzzle
• folding stock

Is the T6 considered a "folding stock"?

3. If I leave my saiga as STOCK; then using an American or Imported 30 round magazine is against 922r, because hi-cap magazines also change a weapon from being a sporter to the military style which is under 922r regulation? Is that the consensus? Thanks... Mike.....


See above. The use of a "non sporting magazine" instantly turns your sweet innocent sporting rifle into an EVIL BABY KILLING MACHINE and 922r kicks in.


These same exact questions have been asked over and over again here. .

Edited by nalioth, 03 January 2010 - 04:43 PM.

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#3 BobAsh

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 06:49 PM

Since the OP is talking about the T6 stock that includes a PG, it will be inherently "non-sporting".
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#4 nalioth

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

Since the OP is talking about the T6 stock that includes a PG, it will be inherently "non-sporting".

No, it will not.

This has been asked (and answered) many times.

The addition of a pistol grip does not trigger 922r.
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#5 christcorp

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:28 AM

nalioth; being you say my math is correct; but my explanation is wrong and might confuse others; let me ask this then:

1. Are there a total of 14 parts (Countable) in the Saiga .223 stock from the factory; imported into the United States; that classifies it as a "GOOD GUN"?
2. If there are only 14 parts; I assume ALL of them are imported? (I assume yes to this)
3. Can I assume that when I remove the original stock, I have dropped to 13 total parts; But I sort of need a stock; and that the Tapco counts as 2 parts because of the butt and the pistol grip being separate pieces?
4. And because they are American parts, those parts no longer count towards anything of significance. Thus 13 imported parts still remain.
5. And; as soon as I remove the standard 10 round magazine; I have removed 3 more imported parts? And thus the total count of imported parts is now 10, which makes it 922r legal?
6. But unless I want to shoot the Saiga .223 as a "SINGLE SHOT RIFLE"; I'm going to need a magazine. So I need to ensure that WHATEVER magazine I choose (Over 10 rounds) is American made, so as to not add to the imported parts total currently sitting at 10. Unless I keep the magazine at 10 or less; then it's not evil; and it doesn't matter how many imported parts there are. (Assuming I haven't done any other changes to the rifle other than exchanging the stock with the Tapco T-6?
7. So bottom line is: If I want to use any EVIL PARTS on my Saiga; such as a 11+ magazine, bayonet, or whatever else is on the TABOO LIST OF PARTS: Then I can do it on the saiga .223, as long as I don't have more than 10 of the original 14 imported (922r) parts on the gun. In other words, it's ALL 14 original imported parts.... OR it's 10 or LESS of the original 14 parts? Can't be 11, 12, or 13? Again; the part count ONLY applies if I'm using certain EVIL accessories such as a 30 round magazine.

Is that a better explanation and understanding? Thanks...

Talk about a B.S. bureaucratic loop-hole PITA. Is this part of the government's "Job Creation Program"??? Making American Parts??? Did they not think that by writing the rules the way they did; that there wouldn't be an "After-Market" for conversions? Did they not think people wouldn't use an AR-15 or Ruger Mini-14 for the same uses as an AK, Saiga, etc...? Who's brother's, cousin's, nephew's, daughter's, father-in-law is in WHICH politician's pocket???? Freakin morons.
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#6 nalioth

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

3. Can I assume that when I remove the original stock, I have dropped to 13 total parts; But I sort of need a stock; and that the Tapco counts as 2 parts because of the butt and the pistol grip being separate pieces?


Mathematically, 13 + 2 = 15. After stock installation, you'll have 15 countable parts.

5. And; as soon as I remove the standard 10 round magazine; I have removed 3 more imported parts? And thus the total count of imported parts is now 10, which makes it 922r legal?



Compliance is counted with the magazine in. Otherwise, they'd not include magazine parts on the list.

7. So bottom line is: If I want to use any EVIL PARTS on my Saiga; such as a 11+ magazine, bayonet, or whatever else is on the TABOO LIST OF PARTS: Then I can do it on the saiga .223, as long as I don't have more than 10 of the original 14 imported (922r) parts on the gun. In other words, it's ALL 14 original imported parts.... OR it's 10 or LESS of the original 14 parts? Can't be 11, 12, or 13? Again; the part count ONLY applies if I'm using certain EVIL accessories such as a 30 round magazine.


It doesn't matter where your parts come from, or how they got there. You can only have 10 foreign parts on it, if you want to use "non sporting magazines" or have more than one of the "evil features" outlined above.

Talk about a B.S. bureaucratic loop-hole PITA. Is this part of the government's "Job Creation Program"??? Making American Parts??? Did they not think that by writing the rules the way they did; that there wouldn't be an "After-Market" for conversions? Did they not think people wouldn't use an AR-15 or Ruger Mini-14 for the same uses as an AK, Saiga, etc...? Who's brother's, cousin's, nephew's, daughter's, father-in-law is in WHICH politician's pocket???? Freakin morons.


Yep, this was the politician's way of totally shutting down "evil assault rifles" in the USA. Too bad folks started cranking out US made parts to play their game, eh?
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#7 madmax4x4

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:02 AM


Since the OP is talking about the T6 stock that includes a PG, it will be inherently "non-sporting".

No, it will not.

This has been asked (and answered) many times.

The addition of a pistol grip does not trigger 922r.


Then why can't they import the guns with the pistol grip and just the 10 round sporting mag? Or 5 round mag foe the 12ga

#8 nalioth

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:23 AM



Since the OP is talking about the T6 stock that includes a PG, it will be inherently "non-sporting".

No, it will not.

This has been asked (and answered) many times.

The addition of a pistol grip does not trigger 922r.


Then why can't they import the guns with the pistol grip and just the 10 round sporting mag? Or 5 round mag foe the 12ga

You can buy an "as imported" WASR-10 with pistol grip and slimline 10 round mag (and no US parts) directly from Century.

You can buy imported semiauto shotguns with pistol grips, too.

Neither of these weapons have the more than one of the "four evil features" and cannot accept "non sporting magazines" . .

Again, this has been covered here in detail before. .
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#9 cruddymutt

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:50 AM

Ok so now Im confused. Adding a pistol grip alone does not trigger 922r? If thats the case then I just bought crap I didnt need.

#10 nalioth

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:54 AM

Ok so now Im confused. Adding a pistol grip alone does not trigger 922r? If thats the case then I just bought crap I didnt need.

Under federal law, this is the way it is.

Hello, Californian (with your crazy Cali laws).
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#11 cruddymutt

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 02:09 AM

haha yea our laws are nuts. the good thing is that our laws are so damn crazy no one wants to enforce them because no one knows them. Im feelin kinda dumb right now though. Just ordered a gas piston for my converted 308 and now finding out I didnt need to. Oh well.

#12 christcorp

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 11:38 AM

Honestly; the most common accessory that the owners of these types of rifles want, is large capacity magazines. And putting in a 30 round magazine, triggers the 922r rules. (For those who care). The minute you changed a 922r part, you have to get the imported parts count down to 10 on the saiga; or you have to leave it alone at the original 14 parts. But because a magazine is made up of 3 parts: the base, follower, and housing; simply putting in a USA made 30 round magazine lowered the original 14 imported parts by 3. Which means you only need to replace one more applicable part with a USA made part. The easiest and cheapest change out is the stock. Costs $45 and takes 5 minutes to swap out. The new Tapco USA made T-6 stock counts as 1 part. So forget all the stupid math. If you swap out the original stock with a USA made stock, that reduces the imported parts on the gun by 1. That one plus the three for the magazine equals 4 total less imported parts. Now, the gun is sitting with 10 imported parts. It's totally in compliance. Replacing any more imported 922r applicable parts with american parts is simply gravy. Obviously the more parts you can swap out, the easier it is to bounce between parts without worrying about 922r.

EXAMPLE: I take out the original 10 round magazine and put in a 30 round USA made Surefire. That's 3 parts. I replace the stock with a USA Tapco T-6 stock. THat's the 4th part I needed. All is good. Now; TECHNICALLY; if I'm out shooting and decide to put in a factory 20 round back into the gun, I increased the imported parts by 3 parts again, and I'm out of 922r compliance.

And yes, the 922r are totally stupid. The pistol grip doesn't trigger a 922r issue; however; the stock does count as one of the original 14 parts. So even though, adding a pistol grip doesn't affect 922r; if you swap out the entire stock, it does count as 1 less imported part. And now you're playing the 922r numbers game.

Edited by christcorp, 06 January 2010 - 09:56 PM.

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#13 GySgt New River

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:22 PM

And if someone thinks my opinion could lead someone to committing a "FELONY"; so what. They can get over it and stop being anal. When I bought my MAK-90 years back; I replaced so many parts on that rifle, and it sure wasn't with USA parts. I put 30 round and drum magazines on it; pistol grips; the original Bayonet lug; and so on. And no one cared one bit.

I won't convert anything for compliance purposes. It will be because I want a certain feature.



christcorp,

You can do whatever you like with your weapon and your life however making it seem that your right or perhaps suggesting to others that your action are OK is WRONG!

I'll give you a chance to correct your ridiculous post or I can do it for you....your choice...hopefully you can make the right one here as obiviously in person your already lacking.

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#14 christcorp

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:54 PM

I do not suggest anyone disregard 922r just because I do. I was simply stating the reality of the rule; the ATF; and enforcement. That's why I started this thread asking certain questions. If I'm going to decide to do something, I want it to be an informed decision. By all means; if a person wants to use hi-capacity magazines, then they need to consider what it will do as to the gun staying in 922r compliance. The simplest fix action is to buy a USA made Hi-Cap magazine; and buy a USA made stock. It is the easiest switch out; it is the least expensive; it doesn't require any modification to your weapon at all; it takes about 5 minutes; and it makes your gun totally 922r compliant.

Edited by christcorp, 06 January 2010 - 09:59 PM.

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#15 GySgt New River

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:06 PM

I do not suggest anyone disregard 922r just because I do.




Thanks for the clarification, this is exactly what I was hoping for. :smoke:

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#16 christcorp

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:51 PM

No problem. Unfortunately, the whole 922r debate is still confusing and "Up for debate". Many of these questions have been asked before, however, 100% confirmed answers are not always agreed upon. For instance; supposedly, a pistol grip doesn't trigger a 922r issue; however, replacing the entire standard stock with a USA made one COUNTS toward 922r compliance. How can that be? I think the best way to ask a question is solely by presenting scenarios.

1. Can I buy a standard over-the-counter Saiga .223; as legally imported; and remove the original sporter stock and replace it with a tapco t-6 collapsible stock with included pistol grip? Without ANY OTHER MODIFICATION TO THE GUN. Everything else original. Including the 10 round saiga magazine. YES/NO. If yes; then why doesn't saiga sell this rifle with a similar collapsible stock and pistol grip? If the answer is "NO" I can't swap out JUST THE STOCK with a Tapco T-6; then why? When I look at vendors selling the T-6; they say that if I put on a stock with a pistol grip, then I MUST swap out 3 more compliance parts for the weapon to be compliant. However; some on this and other forums; say that a pistol grip DOESN'T invoke 922r/

2. Assuming I replace the stock with the TAPCO T-6 and a surefire 30 round USA magazine; I am now in 922r compliance. If I simply remove the 30 round Surefire magazine and put back in the original Saiga 10 round magazine, the gun now has 13 imported parts, am I out of 922r? Or; being the magazine is 10 rounds or under, the gun isn't on the "Taboo" list, so it's ok and a moot point.

3. Biggest question: What is the advantage for people who will spend a lot of money on their "Conversions" of the saiga .223. I can understand the magazine issue to accept AR mags. I understand that. But why the other conversion parts? I would think that simply putting on a T-6 stock for $50 and either buying Surefire/promag mags; or spending more on an AR adapter would be all a person would want. I understand a USA forearm because it includes piscatinny rails for accessories. And for some reason; ONLY the magazine descriptions in most advertisements mention that in order to legally use the magazine, the saiga must be 922r compliant. So does that mean, until a >10 round magazine is inserted, you can swap out as many other parts as you want? See #1 about the pistol grip.

As you can see, there can be entire sections dedicated to compliance, but that doesn't make it any clearer. Then there's those who don't interpret putting in a 30 round magazine in place of a 10 round as "ASSEMBLING"; and therefor don't believe they are out of 922r tolerance. And the worst part is: You can't really get clarification from the government. That's because they screwed up in their liberal minded methodology in coming up with assault weapon type bans and regulations, that they left too much room for loop-holes and interpretation.
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#17 nalioth

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 11:48 PM

1. Can I buy a standard over-the-counter Saiga .223; as legally imported; and remove the original sporter stock and replace it with a tapco t-6 collapsible stock with included pistol grip? Without ANY OTHER MODIFICATION TO THE GUN. Everything else original. Including the 10 round saiga magazine. YES/NO. If yes; then why doesn't saiga sell this rifle with a similar collapsible stock and pistol grip? If the answer is "NO" I can't swap out JUST THE STOCK with a Tapco T-6; then why? When I look at vendors selling the T-6; they say that if I put on a stock with a pistol grip, then I MUST swap out 3 more compliance parts for the weapon to be compliant. However; some on this and other forums; say that a pistol grip DOESN'T invoke 922r/

Again, that depends on if the Tapco T6 is considered a "folding stock".

Let me put it this way: You can install a pistol grip and military butt stock on a factory Saiga (basic conversion) so long as you don't modify it to accept non-factory magazines w/o 922r kicking in.

2. Assuming I replace the stock with the TAPCO T-6 and a surefire 30 round USA magazine; I am now in 922r compliance. If I simply remove the 30 round Surefire magazine and put back in the original Saiga 10 round magazine, the gun now has 13 imported parts, am I out of 922r? Or; being the magazine is 10 rounds or under, the gun isn't on the "Taboo" list, so it's ok and a moot point.

No 922r issues, as your rifle still has it's factory mag well, and hasn't been modified to accept "non sporting magazines"

3. Biggest question: What is the advantage for people who will spend a lot of money on their "Conversions" of the saiga .223. I can understand the magazine issue to accept AR mags. I understand that. But why the other conversion parts? I would think that simply putting on a T-6 stock for $50 and either buying Surefire/promag mags; or spending more on an AR adapter would be all a person would want. I understand a USA forearm because it includes piscatinny rails for accessories. And for some reason; ONLY the magazine descriptions in most advertisements mention that in order to legally use the magazine, the saiga must be 922r compliant. So does that mean, until a >10 round magazine is inserted, you can swap out as many other parts as you want? See #1 about the pistol grip.

You can't "swap out" the neutered muzzle shroud for a muzzle device or bayo lug, or the butt stock for a folding stock, as that would put "two" evil features on the rifle, and at that point would be considered "unimportable" (and require compliance with 922r).
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#18 christcorp

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 01:22 AM

nalioth; I appreciate your responses. I truly do. However; some of the terminology or semantics is just not adding up. You said:

Let me put it this way: You can install a pistol grip and military butt stock on a factory Saiga (basic conversion) so long as you don't modify it to accept non-factory magazines w/o 922r kicking in.

However, if you go to the mississippi arms site; which sells a lot of saiga parts; under the stock section; they say:

The Saiga Rifles and Shotguns are imported in a sporting configuration and must be modified to comply with 922r if a pistol grip is installed. The Saiga rifles and shotguns have (14) fourteen component parts out of the box. In order to be compliant, there can be no more than (10) ten foreign parts on the firearm. If you are using a US made stock with pistol grip and have not installed any additional foreign parts, you will have to change out (3) three more foreign parts to keep the gun compliant.

So you're saying a pistol grip really doesn't matter, and they say it does. Also; you said:

No 922r issues, as your rifle still has it's factory mag well, and hasn't been modified to accept "non sporting magazines"


in reference to magazines. According to your terminology, a factory bought saiga, with no modifications whatsoever; especially the mag well, is ALLOWED to put a 30 round Surefire or Promag magazine in it, and be totally legal. No modification was done to "accept" non sporting magazines. It's capable of accepting >10 round magazines right out of the box. So, can a person take a brand new saiga out of the box and put a Surefire 30 round magazine in it and be legal.

See where this is going. Seems like we can debate until the cows come home. I'm not trying to argue. I'm truly not. But obviously the rules are not clear. The only thing that is clear, is that No One knows exactly what you can or can't do with the saiga. Finally; you mentioned:

You can't "swap out" the neutered muzzle shroud for a muzzle device or bayo lug, or the butt stock for a folding stock, as that would put "two" evil features on the rifle, and at that point would be considered "unimportable" (and require compliance with 922r).

Is 2 evil features the key? Can you have 1 evil feature? Can you take an off the shelf saiga and put a Surefire 30 round magazine on it, and do nothing else to it. Or instead of the 30 round magazines, I thread the barrel and put on a muzzle shroud. I've read 922r and it's associate regs. I've read what the distributors and retailers say on their sites when buying parts. Not saying that things are conflicting; but there is a lot of interpretations going on.

I will continue to have a stock saiga. I will have some 30 round magazines in case I ever have a need for them. I won't worry if using them is against the rules or not. Obviously no one exactly what the rules say. And the government won't clarify it, because they'd have to admit that they allowed a pretty damn good loop hole and didn't do anything about trying to curb crime, violence, or anything else. And life is too short to get a headache over this. Thanks. mike.
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#19 nalioth

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 01:57 AM

nalioth; I appreciate your responses. I truly do. However; some of the terminology or semantics is just not adding up. You said:

Let me put it this way: You can install a pistol grip and military butt stock on a factory Saiga (basic conversion) so long as you don't modify it to accept non-factory magazines w/o 922r kicking in.

However, if you go to the mississippi arms site; which sells a lot of saiga parts; under the stock section; they say:

The Saiga Rifles and Shotguns are imported in a sporting configuration and must be modified to comply with 922r if a pistol grip is installed. The Saiga rifles and shotguns have (14) fourteen component parts out of the box. In order to be compliant, there can be no more than (10) ten foreign parts on the firearm. If you are using a US made stock with pistol grip and have not installed any additional foreign parts, you will have to change out (3) three more foreign parts to keep the gun compliant.

So you're saying a pistol grip really doesn't matter, and they say it does. Also; you said:

No 922r issues, as your rifle still has it's factory mag well, and hasn't been modified to accept "non sporting magazines"


in reference to magazines. According to your terminology, a factory bought saiga, with no modifications whatsoever; especially the mag well, is ALLOWED to put a 30 round Surefire or Promag magazine in it, and be totally legal. No modification was done to "accept" non sporting magazines. It's capable of accepting >10 round magazines right out of the box. So, can a person take a brand new saiga out of the box and put a Surefire 30 round magazine in it and be legal.

That is not what I'm saying at all.

If you take a factory Saiga and insert a 30 round Surefire or ProMag in it, you are committing a federal felony. It doesn't matter if the magazine fits perfectly in an unmodified rifle, it is a felony to couple the two if the rifle isn't 922r compliant. This is the same principle as not driving your car at it's top speed everywhere you travel. Yes, your car will exceed the speed limit, but it's against the law to do so.

MAA and all the others aren't interested in parsing out the nitty-gritty of all this crap, and just put the 'You need to be 922r compliant" on all their pages to cover all the bases. It doesn't matter if you use US parts and aren't legally required to do so, it only matters if you NEED the US parts for 922r compliance and don't have them.(You can drive at or under the speed limit all you like, just don't exceed it).

See where this is going. Seems like we can debate until the cows come home. I'm not trying to argue. I'm truly not. But obviously the rules are not clear. The only thing that is clear, is that No One knows exactly what you can or can't do with the saiga. Finally; you mentioned:

You can't "swap out" the neutered muzzle shroud for a muzzle device or bayo lug, or the butt stock for a folding stock, as that would put "two" evil features on the rifle, and at that point would be considered "unimportable" (and require compliance with 922r).

Is 2 evil features the key? Can you have 1 evil feature? Can you take an off the shelf saiga and put a Surefire 30 round magazine on it, and do nothing else to it. Or instead of the 30 round magazines, I thread the barrel and put on a muzzle shroud. I've read 922r and it's associate regs. I've read what the distributors and retailers say on their sites when buying parts. Not saying that things are conflicting; but there is a lot of interpretations going on.

I will continue to have a stock saiga. I will have some 30 round magazines in case I ever have a need for them. I won't worry if using them is against the rules or not. Obviously no one exactly what the rules say. And the government won't clarify it, because they'd have to admit that they allowed a pretty damn good loop hole and didn't do anything about trying to curb crime, violence, or anything else. And life is too short to get a headache over this. Thanks. mike.

The 922r laws concern themselves with "unimportable rifles". The regulations that exist that makes rifles unimportable has BUPKUS to do with 922r. They're not "laws", either, but the Attorney General's list of "evil features".

The current standard is "2 or more from the following list makes a long gun unimportable."
pistol grip
grenade launcher
bayonet lug
folding stock
threaded muzzle
flash hider

You can have one one of these (a permanently attached muzzle brake is considered "sporting" - if your muzzle brake can be removed, it's got a "threaded muzzle") on your rifle/shotgun and not trigger 922r.

If the gun can accept "non sporting magazines", it is unimportable, regardless of the above standard. Saiga's come with a proprietary magazine and mag well, and cannot accept "non sporting magazines" (i.e. military surplus) in their default state. [US made "non sporting magazines" that directly fit in factory Saigas are illegal to use in factory (non-922r-compliant) Saigas, no matter how well they fit]

So again, for the umpteenth time, is the T6 considered a "folding stock"?
"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#20 christcorp

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 09:32 AM

T-6 folding stock? Guess it depends on who you ask. It's called a T-6, because it has 6 positions in a telescoping extending stock. Does it fold in the sense of "SWING" left or right? No, it can't do that. So I would say it's not a folding stock. Because it can extend in and out, some might consider it the same thing as a folding stock.

The thing about the T-6, is that every place that sells them, advertises that it counts as 1 922r part. And if you use it, you have to replace 3 more parts, to get the rifle to 10 imported parts and within 922r compliance. Of course, the main reason for the T-6 stock isn't because it's a pistol grip. It's because people want a 30 round magazine, and being it counts as 3 parts, they need 1 more part to be legal using the 30 round Surefire magazine. And the cheapest and easiest means of getting that one more extra needed USA part, is either a Tapco t-6 stock or a usa made fore stock.

It's just so ironic that two of the evil pieces (30 round magazine and pistol grip stock) are the two pieces that most people want to replace in the first place anyway, and they are the 2 pieces that if you buy USA parts, makes the gun 922r compliant.

So, I guess the EASIEST way to recommend to others is: "If you want a saiga, and you want a high capacity magazine, you can have one as long as it's American Made; and as long as you replace the stock also with an American made stock. Then you are 100% 922r compliant".
"Born Wild; Raised Proud"

#21 nalioth

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 11:58 AM

So, I guess the EASIEST way to recommend to others is: "If you want a saiga, and you want a high capacity magazine, you can have one as long as it's American Made; and as long as you replace the stock also with an American made stock. Then you are 100% 922r compliant".

Actually, it's not so easy that way.

The factory Monte Carlo is about 3½" longer than a standard AK stock. To get the same LOP (w/o bringing "is it a folder or not?" into it) costs a bit of money, as a custom stock maker will have to become involved. . .



We have long suggested that folks who want to keep their factory appearance change out one listed item and use US "non sporting magazines".
"Tactical" is a mindset, not an equipment list.

#22 christcorp

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:06 PM


So, I guess the EASIEST way to recommend to others is: "If you want a saiga, and you want a high capacity magazine, you can have one as long as it's American Made; and as long as you replace the stock also with an American made stock. Then you are 100% 922r compliant".

Actually, it's not so easy that way.

The factory Monte Carlo is about 3½" longer than a standard AK stock. To get the same LOP (w/o bringing "is it a folder or not?" into it) costs a bit of money, as a custom stock maker will have to become involved. . .



We have long suggested that folks who want to keep their factory appearance change out one listed item and use US "non sporting magazines".


Agreed. That's why if they are concerned about 922r and want a 30 round magazine; just put in a Surefire magazine and a tapco t-6 stock. It telescopes in and out. Doesn't swing, so it's not a folding. It counts as a USA 922r compliant part. And it's only $45 and 5 minutes to put it on. Definitely the easiest means of having a hi-cap magazine without altering the gun permanently altering the gun or spending a lot of money.
"Born Wild; Raised Proud"

#23 amandita

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:43 AM

After reading all the rules, regs, and posts; I'm pretty sure I understand the 922r issue pretty well. At least for "My Needs". I have a basic 3 part question that I'm hoping can be answered simply. Mind you; I'm not too concerned with 922r, because in the real world, no ATF individual is going to be coming around monitoring weapons. And most wouldn't know the difference between a Saiga with a pistol grip and 30 round mag and a standard Romanian AK with 30 round mag which is totally legal under 922r, because that's the way it was modified prior to selling. And in the real world; should a 30 round magazine be required because of a total break down in society; law enforcement, atf, etc... most definitely won't give a crap about 922r regulations. There will be much more important things to worry about. But for my own curiosity, and in case I run into the "ANAL POS" at the range who thinks it's their job to police regulations and I want to know what to hide or expose; here's my 2 questions.

1. If I buy a Tapco pistol grip T-6 stock and install it: That's 1 part USA 922r; and if I use a Surefire 30 round mag: That's 3 more parts USA 922r: That reduces the imported parts count by 4, making it a total of 10, and THUS; my Saiga .223 is perfectly legal? Correct???

2. If for some reason I decide to use the stock issued 10 round magazine that came with the Saiga, at the range; then I have increased the imported parts by 3 again; bringing the total import parts to 13; and thus being it's UNDER 14 and over 10; and no longer a SPORTER rifle because of the pistol grip Tapco T-6 stock; it is now out of 922r compliance? Correct?????

3. If I leave my saiga as STOCK; then using an American or Imported 30 round magazine is against 922r, because hi-cap magazines also change a weapon from being a sporter to the military style which is under 922r regulation? Is that the consensus? Thanks... Mike.....



I know it seems you have answered this question time and time again but I want to make sure I am okay with my 922 compliance. You seem like you know what you are talking about and I would like your help.... Attached is a picture of the Saiga 12 that I purchased this past weekend. It came with a 5 round mag. Upon purchase, I also got a 10 round mag and got the quad rails put on.....


my new babygirl



I want to make sure it is legal so I need to know what I need to do to it... Last night I ordered this Tapco Intrafuse stock set which I understand is fine because it was made in USA?.... below is link

http://dpharms.com/p...28black~29.html

as well as this Phantom flash hider which was also made in USA? ....below is link
http://dpharms.com/p...lash_hider.html


so once I recieve those and change out the butt factory stock and put on the Intrafuse then add the flash hider, how many imported parts will I have and are there any others that I need to modify? If so, what other parts can I buy and easily modify so they are USA made? I am a newbie and I need clarifications because I am all paranoid now about legality issues. And, can I use my 10 and/or 5 round mag with these mods? Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated Posted Image


-Amanda

#24 liberty -r- death

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

Wow, I read this thread and read it again. Can I hit the reset button? This one got CRAZY over a very simple question.


After reading all the rules, regs, and posts; I'm pretty sure I understand the 922r issue pretty well. At least for "My Needs". I have a basic 3 part question that I'm hoping can be answered simply. Mind you; I'm not too concerned with 922r, because in the real world, no ATF individual is going to be coming around monitoring weapons. And most wouldn't know the difference between a Saiga with a pistol grip and 30 round mag and a standard Romanian AK with 30 round mag which is totally legal under 922r, because that's the way it was modified prior to selling. And in the real world; should a 30 round magazine be required because of a total break down in society; law enforcement, atf, etc... most definitely won't give a crap about 922r regulations. There will be much more important things to worry about. But for my own curiosity, and in case I run into the "ANAL POS" at the range who thinks it's their job to police regulations and I want to know what to hide or expose; here's my 2 questions.

1. If I buy a Tapco pistol grip T-6 stock and install it: That's 1 part USA 922r; and if I use a Surefire 30 round mag: That's 3 more parts USA 922r: That reduces the imported parts count by 4, making it a total of 10, and THUS; my Saiga .223 is perfectly legal? Correct???

2. If for some reason I decide to use the stock issued 10 round magazine that came with the Saiga, at the range; then I have increased the imported parts by 3 again; bringing the total import parts to 13; and thus being it's UNDER 14 and over 10; and no longer a SPORTER rifle because of the pistol grip Tapco T-6 stock; it is now out of 922r compliance? Correct?????

3. If I leave my saiga as STOCK; then using an American or Imported 30 round magazine is against 922r, because hi-cap magazines also change a weapon from being a sporter to the military style which is under 922r regulation? Is that the consensus? Thanks... Mike.....



I know it seems you have answered this question time and time again but I want to make sure I am okay with my 922 compliance. You seem like you know what you are talking about and I would like your help.... Attached is a picture of the Saiga 12 that I purchased this past weekend. It came with a 5 round mag. Upon purchase, I also got a 10 round mag and got the quad rails put on.....





I want to make sure it is legal so I need to know what I need to do to it... Last night I ordered this Tapco Intrafuse stock set which I understand is fine because it was made in USA?.... below is link

http://dpharms.com/p...28black~29.html

as well as this Phantom flash hider which was also made in USA? ....below is link
http://dpharms.com/p...lash_hider.html


so once I recieve those and change out the butt factory stock and put on the Intrafuse then add the flash hider, how many imported parts will I have and are there any others that I need to modify? If so, what other parts can I buy and easily modify so they are USA made? I am a newbie and I need clarifications because I am all paranoid now about legality issues. And, can I use my 10 and/or 5 round mag with these mods? Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated Posted Image


-Amanda


Amanda,

You may want to ask you're questions in the S12 section. While you may get an answer here, on this thread, but it may confuse you even more. Saiga shotgun and rifle parts counts are little different from one another.

LRD
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- Obuhmer won the election, we're fucked, keep on prepping -

#25 Mbridge1

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:49 AM

This is exactly the thing that drives newbies like myself crazy!I'd be perfectly happy with just adding a PG, and leaving the rest of the rifle stock to begin. It was my understanding that a pistol grip made it "Non-Sporting", and required more American made parts. Your assertion is that it doesn't, and I'm not challenging you on the point, but that's where the confusion comes in! I swear, I believe the politicians WANT our laws and regulations to be as nebulous and hard to understand as possible, otherwise, they would have a harder time nailing us on minutiae.

#26 liberty -r- death

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 06:25 AM

This is exactly the thing that drives newbies like myself crazy!I'd be perfectly happy with just adding a PG, and leaving the rest of the rifle stock to begin. It was my understanding that a pistol grip made it "Non-Sporting", and required more American made parts. Your assertion is that it doesn't, and I'm not challenging you on the point, but that's where the confusion comes in! I swear, I believe the politicians WANT our laws and regulations to be as nebulous and hard to understand as possible, otherwise, they would have a harder time nailing us on minutiae.


As long as the pistol grip is one of the USA made for saiga (pistol grip stock combination) you do not need any other modifications. The made in the usa stock counts for the one item you need to use high cap mags / and have the pistol grip to be 922r compliant. Hope that makes sense.

You are correct that the government wants our laws to be difficult to interpret so that they can jusitfy their existence by creating new laws to further "clarify" the law for you. It also allows them to asses fines and collect revenue at your expense.
- even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while -
- Obuhmer won the election, we're fucked, keep on prepping -




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