Shellshock1918 1 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 I am having a tough time deciding between a 5.45 or a 5.56 Saiga. I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of both. I understand that some century arms 5.45 rifles have had or have some keyholing issues with different weights of 5.45 ammo. Are there any similar issues with the 5.45 Saigas? Do they prefer certain bullet weights? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Century used .223 barrels for their 5.45 caliber AKs. 5.45 = .215" Can you see why they had keyholing problems? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shellshock1918 1 Posted January 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Yes I understand that, but I keep seeing those stories pop up from time to time and I thought they had remedied the situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 I am having a tough time deciding between a 5.45 or a 5.56 Saiga. Get both! You can't beat 5.45 for lots of inexpensive practice. On the other hand, it might be good to have a 223 in case of ammo import restrictions. If I had to pick one, I'd go 5.45. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 the saiga uses a military barrel the century tantal uses is a us made .223 barrel. tantals with the correct polish barrel dont keyhole. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 whats the definition of keyhole? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 It's when the bullet tumbles, leaving an elongated hole in the target. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 10-4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Keyhole The elongated imprint of a bullet on a target that shows that the bullet was not traveling point-on at the time of impact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 your target will look like BOATS went through it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Check out the photos of my targets in the "5.45x39 special cartridge" post in this section. They are out of a high serial number Tantal. What ever the case on early serial numbered Tantals, mine is fine. Yes, the barrel is US made and no it is not chrome lined and yes I've shot corrosive no problem and YES it functions as well as my Saiga's. I bought this only because it was from a local dealer in my town. If it was bad, it was going back. He swore to me it would be good or refunded. He had it in stock at his house less than a mile from mine. He sold a couple dozen. I only had an interest due to this Saiga posting (but could not find any locally). Boilied down to price and availabliliy. Now, there is an issue of twist rate of the barrel. This is just as big an issue with the .223 of any brand, bolt or semi auto. If the twist rate will proporly stabilize the bullet! Take it from me, the 5.45x39 has one of the longest bullets made (which makes maters worst). The Bulgarian twist rate is around 8". The OEM Polish is around 8". The US Tantal is just shy of 9" (all twist rates). The origninal mil spec bullet is 52-53 grains. Now the standard is 59-60-62 to 70 grains. Sometimes you need a faster (shorter twist) to stabilize the heavy bullet (just like the 5.56x45!) and the longer bullet. It is more critical as the temp drops. From what I found with all the different rounds I've shot, the newer Tantal is fine (even with a hot barrel). My 20" Saiga .223 does not like 70 grain .223 rounds (spreads them all over). The Saiga should have around a one in 8" twist rate and should work fine! Shoot it, lube it and smile. Comrade Frosty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 I am having a tough time deciding between a 5.45 or a 5.56 Saiga. I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of both. I understand that some century arms 5.45 rifles have had or have some keyholing issues with different weights of 5.45 ammo. Are there any similar issues with the 5.45 Saigas? Do they prefer certain bullet weights? this is a SAIGA Rifle you are talking about made BRAND NEW in the factory in Russia. Not the SURPLUS Century Rifle... nuff said... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brandywine 5 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 All through the late 90's up into the mid 2000's, when Romanian and other 5.45 rifles were somewhat popular, I NEVER heard anyone complaining about the 5.45 round keyholing. It was, as stated, not an issue until some rifles were made with .223 barrels. I wouldn't worry as long as the barrel is made for the caliber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shellshock1918 1 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Ok seems like my fears are put to rest. Thanks guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
man-at-arms 2 Posted January 10, 2010 Report Share Posted January 10, 2010 two questions: why the hell do people keep falling for Century's excuses re: ammo type, twist rate, etc.? ALL Century Tantals using US barrels have .223 bores through which a 5.45 bullet WILL NOT engage the rifling. When Century suggests exchanging a rifle for a new one THEY ARE DELIBERATELY WASTING THE CUSTOMER'S TIME. If somebody says HIS Century Tantal doesn't keyhole, HE hasn't shot it enough, at a sufficient variety of distances or temperatures. how the HELL can Century's owners sleep at night, KNOWING this, and if they aren't going to RECALL these shameful products, WHY THE HELL haven't they fixed the !@#$ing problem on the guns they still make?! one fact: Americans CAN make excellent 5.45x39 barrels, and these are not only to be found on S&W AR15s. one suggestion: If you have a Century Tantal, send it to Lancaster or some other US manufacturer of quality 74s and have them put a true 5.45x39 barrel on it. Then send the bill to Century, and copy all correspondence to forums. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 As I must be the only Tantal owner around here I feel I must reply. What business is it of yours what the hell anyone else does with a rifle? You are absolutely wrong! where do you get off with these comments? Do you own a Century Tantal? Or are you a forum crawler that is a F**king arm chair expert? For your information the twist rate of a .223 (5.56x45) is sensitive to bullet weight. This is not just a 5.45x39 issue. I'm not here to defend Century or anyone else. But for you to make a blanket statement you better be able to back it up! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaScott 6 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 (edited) As I must be the only Tantal owner around here I feel I must reply. What business is it of yours what the hell anyone else does with a rifle? You are absolutely wrong! where do you get off with these comments? Do you own a Century Tantal? Or are you a forum crawler that is a F**king arm chair expert? For your information the twist rate of a .223 (5.56x45) is sensitive to bullet weight. This is not just a 5.45x39 issue. I'm not here to defend Century or anyone else. But for you to make a blanket statement you better be able to back it up! OH SNAP ALSO! Here's my 50 yard grouping from my new 5.45 Saiga. Shot this right out of box and these are the first 10 rounds I put through 'er. Not bad considering the front sight post was covering the entire black target circle AND did it off hand/standing. And that little guy in the white? Don't worry 'bout that little guy. Edited January 16, 2010 by SaigaScott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 SaigaScott, Great post! Good shooting! Damn little rifle is fun, right? What ammo did you use? If everyone stops to think, The SAIGA is made by the company that INVENTED the 5.45x39! Who else in the world would do it right (better) than IZHMASH? As Russian firearms go, the 5.45x39 and the 7.62x39 should be the best match! Comrade Frosty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 As I must be the only Tantal owner around here I feel I must reply. What business is it of yours what the hell anyone else does with a rifle? You are absolutely wrong! where do you get off with these comments? Do you own a Century Tantal? Or are you a forum crawler that is a F**king arm chair expert? For your information the twist rate of a .223 (5.56x45) is sensitive to bullet weight. This is not just a 5.45x39 issue. I'm not here to defend Century or anyone else. But for you to make a blanket statement you better be able to back it up! I own a Tantal and some other 5.45's. Using a .223 barrel in a 5.45 is just wrong! The point to be made is that Century gives a litany of excuses about keyholing with their 5.45's and does not even acknowledge their own responsibility for poor performance due to the improper choice of barrel. Century builds have never had a very good reputation overall. Most calibers are sensitive to bullet weight relative to twist and I don't think there's much of an argument there, but for Century it's an excuse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaScott 6 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Using good ol' corrosive mil surplus! The gun dealer gave me 120 rounds when I bought the gun, they came wrapped in this white plastic wrap stuff. It shot great though! And is it just me, or does the mil surp ammo after firing it smell like burnt glue or something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
101_feind 1 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I BELIEVE IT IS NORMAL FOR 5.45 TO KEY HOLE, THEY ARE DEADLY IN THE FLESH, THE AK-101 HAS HIGHER TENDACY TO PENETRATE ARMOR, IS BETTER BALLISTICS THAN THE 5,45, THE 5.45 74 HAS BETTER BALLISTICS THAN A M16, M16 IS MOST ACCURATE THOUGH. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I BELIEVE IT IS NORMAL FOR 5.45 TO KEY HOLE No. You're confusing tumbling with keyholing. If a round doesn't punch a nice clean round hole in paper, then it wasn't spinning on it's axis, which is what the rifling in the barrel is supposed to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RomanPraetorian 0 Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Century used .223 barrels for their 5.45 caliber AKs. 5.45 = .215" Can you see why they had keyholing problems? Note I AM NOT saying you are wrong about this but it seems absolutely incredible and hard to believe that Century would have deliberately used .223 barrels in a 5.45 rifle! Surely, they could have seen that the smaller 5.45 round would not stabilize in a .223 barrel and that they would end up with numerous unhappy customers? Especially when you can buy a brand new Saiga 5.45 rifle for about $335 and slap a few American parts and stock set on it and have an excellent rifle with the CORRECT barrel that is fully 922 compliant. If the century rifle is the one I am thinking of, it sells for $449.00. That is not a fortune, but if it has the wrong barrel in it, what difference does it make? I can believe you when I remember back to the Century Golani rifle fiasco with the poor milled receiver made by ORF that experienced pinging on the front of the receiver by the bolt/bolt carrier and had lugs that did not lock up properly/safely. Sorry if I offend/insult any Century rifle owners but damn........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deussne 38 Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Well, I have shot my 5.45 Saiga quite a lot. I did notice that some times my targets look like they have some Key holes in them. I never save those targets but managed to find a picture of one that might have one or 2 fo them in the middle. Take a look at it and let me know what you think? I usually tend to shoot 70gr bullets out of my rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wulkyrie 0 Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Deussne, I counted six keyholes. Have you shot something lighter to see if this issue goes away or try shooting at a longer distance to see if this stabilizes out (I suspect not)? Anybody has this issue w/ their SAIGA shooting 70 grainer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 As I am leaning toware 5.45 vs 223 at this moment. I'd like to know also if anyone else has/had keyholing with a Saiga??? Planning on ordering something today or Monday would be good to know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Well, I have shot my 5.45 Saiga quite a lot. I did notice that some times my targets look like they have some Key holes in them. I never save those targets but managed to find a picture of one that might have one or 2 fo them in the middle. Take a look at it and let me know what you think? I usually tend to shoot 70gr bullets out of my rifle. Looks like overlapping bullet holes to me, but I never shoot anything higher than 60 grain bullets out of my rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 As I am leaning toware 5.45 vs 223 at this moment. I'd like to know also if anyone else has/had keyholing with a Saiga??? Not once in hundreds of shots. I use mostly 7N6, with some Wolf and Silver Bear 60 grain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deussne 38 Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 I think this is mostly due to me using heavier bullets. Ive shot some surplus ammo and that performed great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.