7.62 vs. 5.45

[Moe Zambeak 53]

I looked through all 3 pages of the 5.45 subforum for a similar post. I couldn't find anything there or on this forum when I did a search for "5.45" in the thread title.

 

Alright, I'm in the market for a new Saiga. I currently own a 7.62x39 Saiga, and a few other AK rifles in 7.62x39. Along with those I have a decent (never enough) supply of ammo, and mags and drums to feed the ammo to the rifles.

 

I have been eyeing the 5.45 Saigas since they came to market. Mostly because of the cheap price of surplus ammo, and also ballistics of the round.

 

My dilema is that if I buy a 5.45, I will have to spend at least $75 for a proper load out of mags, and start from scratch on that cheap surplus ammo to have enough on hand to feel comfortable with. I am thinking that if I just stick to the 7.62 platform, I already have mags, (which I could add to and use in other rifles I own) and ammo (which I could also add to and use between all of my other rifles).

 

Is the savings on the ammo enough to warrant getting all new mags and a new stash of ammo? Or should I just get another 7.62 and add to my exsisting supplies?

 

I am hoping to hear some of you guys help me debate getting into a new caliber vs adding to my current collection of 7.62x39.

[jimdigriz 580]

My dilema is that if I buy a 5.45, I will have to spend at least $75 for a proper load out of mags, and start from scratch on that cheap surplus ammo to have enough on hand to feel comfortable with. I am thinking that if I just stick to the 7.62 platform, I already have mags, (which I could add to and use in other rifles I own) and ammo (which I could also add to and use between all of my other rifles).

 

Moe, I've had the same quandary. I ultimately chose to pick up the 5.45, but you may decide differently. The main reason was that I knew that 7.62x39 was too much for my wife. It has turned out well, because she loves shooting the 5.45. I'm also planning to use it as a training rifle on account of the cheap ammo.

 

How many mags are you wanting to pick up? They can be had for $10 bucks apiece, so that's not too onerous.

[Digger44 0]

I guess I would need to know why you want two of the same rifle? Do friends or family want an extra? Why have a few AKs, a Saiga, and now get another in x39? To me this doesn't make sense. You have the caliber covered very well. Move on to another caliber. Do you have anything in .223? This is the most logical step if you are long term planning for TEOTWAWKI. If you already have something in .223, then go for the 5.45. While the .223 is more expensive it will be more available in emergency situations. Have as many calibers as possible as long as you have the ability to get the ammo as well.

[Moe Zambeak 53]

Thanks for the quick reply, Jim!

 

I was thinking about 7-10 mags for starters. I saw them just before Christmas for $10 a pop, but haven't seen them that cheap since. I wouldn't be mad if ya PMed me a link

 

If I add the cost of those mags ($70-100) to the $280-$300 for 2k of ammo, that puts me at about $400 on the high end. I figure I could buy another 2k rounds of the Yugo 7.62 for that amount of money.

 

This is really a difficult decision! Thanks for all the input!

[Moe Zambeak 53]

I guess I would need to know why you want two of the same rifle? Do friends or family want an extra? Why have a few AKs, a Saiga, and now get another in x39? To me this doesn't make sense. You have the caliber covered very well. Move on to another caliber. Do you have anything in .223? This is the most logical step if you are long term planning for TEOTWAWKI. If you already have something in .223, then go for the 5.45. While the .223 is more expensive it will be more available in emergency situations. Have as many calibers as possible as long as you have the ability to get the ammo as well.

 

The reason for having 2 of the same rifle is that I like to have redundancy. Add to that the fact that there aren't any spare parts for the Saiga rifle in the US unless you send it in for repairs, and I seek comfort knowing that I have a back up. I'm sure if I do go the 5.45 route, I will end up getting a second rifle to "back up" the first after a couple months. It never ends, LOL!

 

You bring up a good point about moving into another caliber. The difference between the 7.62 and the 5.45 are one of the key reasons for me considering the purchase. I used to have a Mini-14 in .223, but it was my only rifle in .223 so I traded it for a second S-12. It's the only gun I ever got rid of that I don't regret.

 

I'm not sure about EOTWAWKI, but the way I see is that if I can keep a couple thousand rounds on hand, I should never have any problems with ammo. The low cost of the 5.45 would allow me to "buy it cheap and stack it deep", after the initial start up cost.

 

Good info guys, Keep it coming!

[jimdigriz 580]

The reason for having 2 of the same rifle is that I like to have redundancy. Add to that the fact that there aren't any spare parts for the Saiga rifle in the US unless you send it in for repairs, and I seek comfort knowing that I have a back up.

 

A decent number of the parts of the 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 are interchangable. But I know what you mean about backup parts.

[Moe Zambeak 53]

That's the way I see it Jim.

 

Two is one and one is none.

[Will486 7]

Consider whether this will be a plinker or a SHTF gun. If you want a gun for its convenience, get the 7.62. Like you said, the compatibility of parts and ammo will come in handy. But the 5.45 certainly performs better.. (imo). More accurate, especially at longer range, and it can incur more damage to the target. Better penetration, if you intend to shoot through walls, cars, barriers of any type. So.. My advice is just consider what youre going to use it for.

[jimdigriz 580]

That's the way I see it Jim.

 

Two is one and one is none.

 

OK, but I'm not sure you've thought this through completely. If you have to cannibalize one 7.62x39 Saiga to keep the other running, you've only got one operable rifle. If you buy the 5.45x39, and your 7.62x39 rifle fails in a SHTF situation, you've still got....one operable rifle. The chances of both of them failing around the same time is - given the fact that they are AKs - not very high. So maybe this redundancy stuff is not really a big deal.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Frankyoz 15]

heck instead of dropping the cash for a new gun and setup stock up on allot more ammo if you got a couple .39's then your logic will have you buying up a coupl .45's as well when you could shoot the crap out of and keep your .39's stocked for the coin. What about picking up a TT-33 then you have a cheap sidearm that you can get tons of surplus ammo for and carry on you as a back up for TEOTWAWKI. I like to have redundancies and a backup lol! Plus that little 7.62x25 has allot of things going for it.

[imarangemaster 315]

7.62x39, other than being a far superior round, has other advantages:

 

Reloadable. Commercial brass available (I have IMI and it's great), will work with standard .308 projectiles in a pinch (actually some loads work well), and you can cast 160 grain hardcast wheel weight/linotype bullets that don't need gas checks with a LEE mold, and load to 1600 fps with 2400 powder, and cycle action.

 

7.62x39 also commercially produced in the US by Remington and Winchester.

 

.223 has most of the same advantages as the 7.62x39 when it comes to commercial production and reloadability EXCEPZT you can not cast bullets.

 

5.45x39 is not reloadable, no brass, dies or projectiles made, etc. Totally reliant on foreign military surplus (or Wolf) ammo. with the swipe of the pen, Obama or BATFE could stop importation of "military" ammo. If that happens, the 5.45 ammo in the country will go through the roof. I will be quietly casting and reloading my 7.62x39 ammo, saving my Brown Bear HP so serious work.

[imarangemaster 315]

I have actually thought about a Tokarev or Czech CZ 7.62x25 as a back up to my Glock 19. Buy a ton of ammo cheap. It is the 7.63 Mauser round, stolen by the Russians when the bought lots of C96 Broomhandle Mauser during the revolution. They liked it so much, they copied it. When it comes to Ivan, imitation (stealing your ideas) is the sincerest form of flattery! Little known fact: Winston Churchill used a 7.63 Mauser VERY effectively when a young officer in Africa

[Moe Zambeak 53]

Consider whether this will be a plinker or a SHTF gun. If you want a gun for its convenience, get the 7.62. Like you said, the compatibility of parts and ammo will come in handy. But the 5.45 certainly performs better.. (imo). More accurate, especially at longer range, and it can incur more damage to the target. Better penetration, if you intend to shoot through walls, cars, barriers of any type. So.. My advice is just consider what youre going to use it for.

 

The ballistics you mention are of great interest to me. I doubt I would ever fire any of my rifles over 200m. So, for the sake of argument, let's say that a situation comes up where I am hitting a target (hog, etc) at 200-300m. How big of a difference I am I going to see in accuracy? I have seen some pics of what the 5.45 does to the inside of a deer, and it is N A S T Y!!!! For being a smaller round, it does some serious damage!

 

That's the way I see it Jim.

 

Two is one and one is none.

 

OK, but I'm not sure you've thought this through completely. If you have to cannibalize one 7.62x39 Saiga to keep the other running, you've only got one operable rifle. If you buy the 5.45x39, and your 7.62x39 rifle fails in a SHTF situation, you've still got....one operable rifle. The chances of both of them failing around the same time is - given the fact that they are AKs - not very high. So maybe this redundancy stuff is not really a big deal.

 

Jim, my thinking is that if I have a single 5.45 and it goes down, I don't have any thing to sling all the cheap 5.45 ammo I have stacked up. However, if my second (or first) 7.62x39 goes down, I have a ton of ammo and mags to feed it.

 

Of course, I agree with you that the chance of an AK going down is almost non-existent.

 

 

heck instead of dropping the cash for a new gun and setup stock up on allot more ammo if you got a couple .39's then your logic will have you buying up a coupl .45's as well when you could shoot the crap out of and keep your .39's stocked for the coin. What about picking up a TT-33 then you have a cheap sidearm that you can get tons of surplus ammo for and carry on you as a back up for TEOTWAWKI. I like to have redundancies and a backup lol! Plus that little 7.62x25 has allot of things going for it.

 

The "start up" costs of getting the 5.45 on par with the x39's would get me about 2k more rounds of x39. After that, the ammo is...40%(?) less for the 5.45 than for the x39. So let's say I buy the 2k of 5.45 included in my "start up" cost. When I go to replace it, it will cost me $230.

 

Now, if I sink the $400 of "start up" cost in to x39 ammo, that gets me 2k of ammo as well. To replace it costs $400 vs the $230 to replace the ammo for the 5.45. See what I'm thinking?

 

On the x25, I actually have that covered with a CZ-52 I wish there was a conversion of the 7.62x39 to 7.62x25. That would be some cheap fun!

[Moe Zambeak 53]

7.62x39, other than being a far superior round, has other advantages:

 

Reloadable. Commercial brass available (I have IMI and it's great), will work with standard .308 projectiles in a pinch (actually some loads work well), and you can cast 160 grain hardcast wheel weight/linotype bullets that don't need gas checks with a LEE mold, and load to 1600 fps with 2400 powder, and cycle action.

 

7.62x39 also commercially produced in the US by Remington and Winchester.

 

.223 has most of the same advantages as the 7.62x39 when it comes to commercial production and reloadability EXCEPZT you can not cast bullets.

 

5.45x39 is not reloadable, no brass, dies or projectiles made, etc. Totally reliant on foreign military surplus (or Wolf) ammo. with the swipe of the pen, Obama or BATFE could stop importation of "military" ammo. If that happens, the 5.45 ammo in the country will go through the roof. I will be quietly casting and reloading my 7.62x39 ammo, saving my Brown Bear HP so serious work.

 

Excellent point!

 

I had not thought out the fact that there is no US manufacturer of the 5.45 ammo. I have been blindly thinking about the (currently) cheap surplus. Even though I don't reload now, it is something I plan on getting into in the upcoming years. With the unavailability of 5.45 components, I could see that being a huge factor once the surplus dries up, or the worse case you mentioned (ban of importation).

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim, my thinking is that if I have a single 5.45 and it goes down, I don't have any thing to sling all the cheap 5.45 ammo I have stacked up. However, if my second (or first) 7.62x39 goes down, I have a ton of ammo and mags to feed it.

 

I intend to set aside a cheap Yugo SKS for 7.62x39 ammo redundancy. One day, I might pick up another 7.62x39 Saiga.

 

 

On the 5.45 importation issue, I'm less worried about Obama or the ATF that I am a possible dollar collapse (sending imported ammo prices through the roof). Right now I am replacing ammo that I shoot in various calibers, but stockpiling loads of 5.45x39.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Do you have anything in .223? This is the most logical step if you are long term planning for TEOTWAWKI. If you already have something in .223, then go for the 5.45. While the .223 is more expensive it will be more available in emergency situations...

 

Regarding 5.56/.223 and rifles chambered for it, (assuming it's TEOTWAWKI), I'm always reminded of the following dialogue from We Were Soldiers:

 

Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: I think you oughta get yourself an M-16.

Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Sir, if the time comes I need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground.

 

To the topic: have you considered a 20" barrelled .308 Saiga, Moe?

[Paulry 50]

This 5.45x39 thing is growing!

 

I recommend you stick with the 7.62x39! It's a much better choice.

 

I don't need any more competition for the limited 5.45x39 surplus ammo!

 

[bigsal 757]

I wish there was a conversion of the 7.62x39 to 7.62x25. That would be some cheap fun!

 

There are a few guys that convert to x25. Here is an example:

Here is a link

Edited January 8, 2010 by bigsal

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...But the 5.45 certainly performs better.. (imo). More accurate, especially at longer range, and it can incur more damage to the target. Better penetration, if you intend to shoot through walls, cars, barriers of any type...

 

7.62x39 penetrates cover better than 5.45x39 does. Muzzle velocity isn't everything. The mass of the bullet has more to do with it than many people think.. and the standard 7.62 round weighs in at ~123 gr, while the standard 5.45 weighs a paltry ~56 gr... less than half as much.

 

For plinking... 5.45 is much cheaper atm, and it does shoot flatter. However, 5.45 doesn't impress me when it comes to actually neutralizing two-legged, (and four-legged), targets.. especially if you're having to shoot through cover or even just foliage between you and your target.

 

ymmv

[SaigaScott 6]

I was just discussing this with a friend of mine today AND on the 5.45 Saiga sub forum. I'm also gunning to get a 5.45 Saiga this week.

 

Main reason why is because the ammo where I'm at is CHEAP ($60 for about 500 rounds of milsurp) and from what I've heard from some dudes, is devastating within it's designed parameters (inside 400 yrds (claims the Ruskies)). The soviets designed the cartridge after the studying the 5.56 during the Vietnam conflict. They realized that the 'tumbling' effect of the 5.56 and how soldiers can carry more ammunition on their person. So the 5.45 came along, and people claim the Russians took the 5.56 and made it better (better in the tumbling in your body aspect). Now accuracy wise, I'm not sure, I'm still studying this round as it is because I'm torn between the 5.56 and 5.45.

 

And I know what you mean by wanting at least two of the same rifle. I already have a 7.62x39 Saiga, having another one would be nice; but I like variety . The mags where I'm at for 74's aren't bad either. I see Promags going for $18 at my local gun shop and I see some other foreign mags (not sure the origin of them) going for about the same price. Not every mag has to be a $40 bakelite.

 

Another reason I'm getting the 5.45 is because I rarely see ANYONE with a 5.45 caliber rifle in my area. Everyone's on the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 wagon (That includes me lol), so that's a plus in the fact that I'll be probably one of the few buying 5.45 at my local gun store.

 

Recap:

 

- Ammo is CHEAP

- Decent round within the typical AK range

- It's lighter

- Did I mention CHEAP?

- Mags aren't too expensive

 

But in the end, do what YOU feel is right. If you want a back up, then get your self another 7.62. If you want to try something different and want to plink a lot more, then go 5.45.

 

And like always, post pics of you're new rifle when you make up you're mind

[Moe Zambeak 53]

 

Regarding 5.56/.223 and rifles chambered for it, (assuming it's TEOTWAWKI), I'm always reminded of the following dialogue from We Were Soldiers:

 

Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: I think you oughta get yourself an M-16.

Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Sir, if the time comes I need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground.

 

To the topic: have you considered a 20" barrelled .308 Saiga, Moe?

 

I agree about the M-16.

 

I have considered the S-308, but right now I think a smaller cartridge that I can stock up on for a lower cost, fits my bill. The main advantage of the 308 is that it turns cover into concealment.

 

This 5.45x39 thing is growing!

 

I recommend you stick with the 7.62x39! It's a much better choice.

 

I don't need any more competition for the limited 5.45x39 surplus ammo!

 

 

LOL!

 

I'll take that as another vote for sticking with the 7.62

 

 

I wish there was a conversion of the 7.62x39 to 7.62x25. That would be some cheap fun!

 

There are a few guys that convert to x25. Here is an example:

Here is a link

 

I've seen those before, and drooled every time! That's the first time I saw any part of the conversion for sale. I'd be interested in seeing a more complete kit on the market, but at $210 just for the bolt, it might not be as cost effective as I had hoped.

[jimdigriz 580]

And I know what you mean by wanting at least two of the same rifle. I already have a 7.62x39 Saiga, having another one would be nice; but I like variety . The mags where I'm at for 74's aren't bad either. I see Promags going for $18 at my local gun shop and I see some other foreign mags (not sure the origin of them) going for about the same price. Not every mag has to be a $40 bakelite.

 

Promags suck. They don't deserve your business. You can get reliable, Bulgarian polymer mags for less, too.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Moe Zambeak 53]

I was just discussing this with a friend of mine today AND on the 5.45 Saiga sub forum. I'm also gunning to get a 5.45 Saiga this week.

 

Main reason why is because the ammo where I'm at is CHEAP ($60 for about 500 rounds of milsurp) and from what I've heard from some dudes, is devastating within it's designed parameters (inside 400 yrds (claims the Ruskies)). The soviets designed the cartridge after the studying the 5.56 during the Vietnam conflict. They realized that the 'tumbling' effect of the 5.56 and how soldiers can carry more ammunition on their person. So the 5.45 came along, and people claim the Russians took the 5.56 and made it better (better in the tumbling in your body aspect). Now accuracy wise, I'm not sure, I'm still studying this round as it is because I'm torn between the 5.56 and 5.45.

 

And I know what you mean by wanting at least two of the same rifle. I already have a 7.62x39 Saiga, having another one would be nice; but I like variety . The mags where I'm at for 74's aren't bad either. I see Promags going for $18 at my local gun shop and I see some other foreign mags (not sure the origin of them) going for about the same price. Not every mag has to be a $40 bakelite.

 

Another reason I'm getting the 5.45 is because I rarely see ANYONE with a 5.45 caliber rifle in my area. Everyone's on the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 wagon (That includes me lol), so that's a plus in the fact that I'll be probably one of the few buying 5.45 at my local gun store.

 

Recap:

 

- Ammo is CHEAP

- Decent round within the typical AK range

- It's lighter

- Did I mention CHEAP?

- Mags aren't too expensive

 

But in the end, do what YOU feel is right. If you want a back up, then get your self another 7.62. If you want to try something different and want to plink a lot more, then go 5.45.

 

And like always, post pics of you're new rifle when you make up you're mind

 

Some very good points. I will most likely be doing a lot of plinking with this rifle if it is a 5.45. If it ends up being another 7.62, It will probably get converted then become a safe queen while I shoot my current rifle.

 

I plan on taking a professional training course this year. Most of the classes I have looked at require quite a bit of ammo. This is a driving force for the 5.45.

 

I will definitely post pics of whatever creation I come up with! I'll probably bore you guys to death talking about it every step of the way, LOL!

 

*ETA:

 

Promags should be steered clear of at all costs! I don't care if some one paid me to take them! I'd be happy running any surplus mag. They don't have to be Bakalite.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Moe Zambeak

[bigsal 757]

 

I've seen those before, and drooled every time! That's the first time I saw any part of the conversion for sale. I'd be interested in seeing a more complete kit on the market, but at $210 just for the bolt, it might not be as cost effective as I had hoped.

 

Apparently the trick is buying a cheap PPSH kit and use the barrel and weld the magazine adaptor. The hard part (the bolt and carrier) is all set for ya! If I do an SBR Ill do one in 7.62x39... Ive been drooling over the Vityaz for years!

Edited January 8, 2010 by bigsal

[Moe Zambeak 53]

 

 

Apparently the trick is buying a cheap PPSH kit and use the barrel and weld the magazine adaptor. The hard part (the bolt and carrier) is all set for ya! If I do an SBR Ill do one in 7.62x39... Ive been drooling over the Vityaz for years!

 

:wub:

 

Oh man!!!!

 

That is sweet! Any chance of you starting a thread in the "Other AK Rifles" subforum with some more info on that bad boy?

[bigsal 757]

 

 

Apparently the trick is buying a cheap PPSH kit and use the barrel and weld the magazine adaptor. The hard part (the bolt and carrier) is all set for ya! If I do an SBR Ill do one in 7.62x39... Ive been drooling over the Vityaz for years!

 

:wub:

 

Oh man!!!!

 

That is sweet! Any chance of you starting a thread in the "Other AK Rifles" subforum with some more info on that bad boy?

 

Here is a link, I don't know enough about it to start a thread:

 

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg97-e.htm

 

Its baddass though. They make them in 9mm and 9.18 makarov from what I gather. I think we could see kits of these without the barrel if importation of russian stuff is ever eased. If that happens those PPSH barrels would make for an awesome weapon!

Edited January 8, 2010 by bigsal

[SaigaScott 6]

And I know what you mean by wanting at least two of the same rifle. I already have a 7.62x39 Saiga, having another one would be nice; but I like variety . The mags where I'm at for 74's aren't bad either. I see Promags going for $18 at my local gun shop and I see some other foreign mags (not sure the origin of them) going for about the same price. Not every mag has to be a $40 bakelite.

 

Promags suck. They don't deserve your business. You can get reliable, Bulgarian polymer mags for less, too.

 

 

 

*ETA:

 

Promags should be steered clear of at all costs! I don't care if some one paid me to take them! I'd be happy running any surplus mag. They don't have to be Bakalite.

 

I knew I shouldn't of mentioned those, if there is ONE rule in the Saiga community, it's don't buy Promags. I'm assuming you all have had bad experiences with them? I see bulgarian 5.45 mags all the time, my gun dealer keeps them in the "Magazine bargain bin". I think they go for like 15 - 17 dollars, not sure, gonna go take a look again tomorrow if possible.

 

And no problem Moe, just helping another FLA brother out

[Moe Zambeak 53]

I have had bad experiences with the S-12 Promags, and some for my handguns and a friend had problems with some for one of his rifles. I have never seen a product fail on a more consistent basis than Promags.

 

I guess I was trying to save you some disappointment too, LOL! What part of Florida are you from?

[SaigaScott 6]

I have had bad experiences with the S-12 Promags, and some for my handguns and a friend had problems with some for one of his rifles. I have never seen a product fail on a more consistent basis than Promags.

 

I guess I was trying to save you some disappointment too, LOL! What part of Florida are you from?

Let's just say where shuttle goes up, I can see it launch and hear it's sonic boom when it enters the atmosphere.

 

I have a 7.62x39 Promag, was given to me when I bought the rifle. I've had some issues with it, and I don't trust the lip on it, I can see it wearing down in the near future.

Edited January 8, 2010 by SaigaScott

[jimdigriz 580]

I knew I shouldn't of mentioned those, if there is ONE rule in the Saiga community, it's don't buy Promags. I'm assuming you all have had bad experiences with them?

 

Yep.

 

I'd be ashamed to go in to work everyday if I worked for Promag. Their business model relies on people saying, "Well, the Promag is cheaper [or, has a larger capacity], and maybe it will work for me, since I heard that it did work for some other people."