Taliban pay more for AK 74s than AK 47s

[jimdigriz 580]

The Taliban reportedly prefer the AK 74, supposedly for better penetration of body armor:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/18/drugs-arms-trade-afghanistan

[chevyman097 2,579]

Psh who really knows.

[volkov 318]

interesting.. maybe it's a status symbol being rarer in the region and areis complimented by these rumors the same way they were complimented by the "poison bullet".

 

Ak-74s seem to generate a lot of rumors.. I like them, and my normal shooter IS one (for cheap ammo purposes) but the idea of them penetrating body armor better than a 7.62 just sounds like BS.

 

Again it might be a pecking order thing, the higher ups carryng ak-74s as "better weapons" as status symbols and largely avoiding combat while the rank and file use ak-47s and spread rumors of the legendary weapons their superiors use..

 

edit: another thought.. Maybe they are tryng to encourage people to use them since their ammo is considerably cheaper? If people are unwilling to give up their arms to save you money on ammo the best way to trick them is to say "this is better!". But then again I have no clue if ammo costs are as different or as applicable to terrorists as to the average american range shooter, although we are getting our surplus ammo from the same place..

Edited January 11, 2010 by volkov

[Reverendfranz 160]

Uh, didnt the Soviets prefer them as well? Just going out on a limb here, but mightnt they be following that train of thought?

[Bucky G 4]

I bet they do penetrate body armor better

higher velocity, thin long pointy projectile

 

bet it goes right through it like nothing

[schultze13 354]

The ak74(5.45) does penetrate body armor better higher vel. and steel core and the way the bullet is designed it will tumble when it enters the body doing more damage. Now the ak47(7.62) hits harder but does not penetrate armor as well. Also the 7.62x39 will do more damage on soft targets(no armor) than the 5.45x39.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

The Taliban also believe if they strap themselves with bombs and martyr themselves they've got 72 virgins waiting for them.

[KrisFox 69]

The ak74(5.45) does penetrate body armor better higher vel. and steel core and the way the bullet is designed it will tumble when it enters the body doing more damage. Now the ak47(7.62) hits harder but does not penetrate armor as well. Also the 7.62x39 will do more damage on soft targets(no armor) than the 5.45x39.

 

[KrisFox 69]

The ak74(5.45) does penetrate body armor better higher vel. and steel core and the way the bullet is designed it will tumble when it enters the body doing more damage. Now the ak47(7.62) hits harder but does not penetrate armor as well. Also the 7.62x39 will do more damage on soft targets(no armor) than the 5.45x39.

 

 

Depends, the 5.45 yaws sooner, even an extremity wound could be very bad. (And what is exposed when you ware body armor?)

 

The 7.62 will just punch a hole through an arm or a leg... Or throat.

Edited January 11, 2010 by KrisFox

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

As long as the target is accommodating enough not to be behind a brick or concrete wall, vehicle, or other such sure the 74 is preferred. Since the cowards specialize in assaulting soft targets, ie unarmed unsuspecting unprepared civilians, its perfect.

 

As for body armor I haven't seen the 5.45 tested but I have seen the x39 and 223 against two type III and a type II stacked. The 223 did ok while the x39 left this huge hole in the clay behind the vests, seems it began tumbling faster due to the vests. Pistol and shotgun slugs did not penetrate. Rifles are rifles no vest made is going to stop them. Anyone depending on a pistol or a shoty alone is just fooling themselves.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

As long as the target is accommodating enough not to be behind a brick or concrete wall, vehicle, or other such sure the 74 is preferred. Since the cowards specialize in assaulting soft targets, ie unarmed unsuspecting unprepared civilians, its perfect.

 

As for body armor I haven't seen the 5.45 tested but I have seen the x39 and 223 against two type III and a type II stacked. The 223 did ok while the x39 left this huge hole in the clay behind the vests, seems it began tumbling faster due to the vests. Pistol and shotgun slugs did not penetrate. Rifles are rifles no vest made is going to stop them. Anyone depending on a pistol or a shoty alone is just fooling themselves.

This is reason #1 why i wanna get a set of plates to go with my level III armor...

[jamesavery22 54]

Way too much simplification going on here.

 

What distances are we talking about? 7.62 starts having less energy than 5.45 at some point. I don't even know what it is but no one is even mentioning that.

 

Then what bullets are we talking about? 7.62 Russian steel core and 7N22?

 

No matter which bullets, neither will beat out the other in all aspects.

 

<= 100 yards 7.62 with comparable bullets(don't compare 7N22 to yugo lead core) will penetrate intermediate barriers and retain more energy on the other side than 5.45

 

> 100 yards & < 300? I dunno.

 

> 300 yards, 5.45 will have a significantly flatter trajectory as well as more energy. Never seen any test but you'd think 5.45 will penetrate more at those distances. But who knows.

 

I've never seen any extensive tests around either rounds.

 

I've been looking for the thread for a while but someone posted on how the Ruskies took a bunch of death row inmates and tested 5.45 and 7.62 ammo on them out at 300M. The 5.45 was consistently killing them with one shot more than the 7.62. No clue who did it or with what ammo though.

 

 

Who cares what the taliban wear as bling.

[volkov 318]

I've been looking for the thread for a while but someone posted on how the Ruskies took a bunch of death row inmates and tested 5.45 and 7.62 ammo on them out at 300M. The 5.45 was consistently killing them with one shot more than the 7.62. No clue who did it or with what ammo though.

 

 

WOW.. now that's a deterrent for violent crime.. you get to be target practice.. I wonder if they do the same with artillery?

[jimdigriz 580]

I've been looking for the thread for a while but someone posted on how the Ruskies took a bunch of death row inmates and tested 5.45 and 7.62 ammo on them out at 300M. The 5.45 was consistently killing them with one shot more than the 7.62. No clue who did it or with what ammo though.

 

I saw a post on the Warrior Talk forum about this:

5.45 test

 

Sorry, registration required to view the forum, but here's an excerpt:

"the 5,45 round does more damage in soft tissue than the 7,62 round [for referance on this, see the East German studies - they are pretty eye opening]. I'm going to pause here and explain this a bit; I have a copy of the papers here in the house, I'd have to see if they are posted somewhere online. They are also referanced in "The AK-47" by Chris McNab book. The basic specs were that they shot convicts at 300 meters who were on death row with a two round auto burst from an AKM and an AK-74 using randomly selected consripts. The results at 300 meters were;

AKM;

29% of both rounds hitting

50% chance of death if both rounds hit

7.49 joules of recoil energy

AK-74;

40% chance of both rounds hitting

64% chance of death if both rounds hit

3.39 joules of recoil energy

 

Now, the study makes no mention of placment, so a hit in the foot or hand could count. I would wager that if we only counted Center of mass hits, the percentages on both would go up significantly. closer ranges would also make all the numbers go up. At any rate, what this study very adequately illustrates is that the lower recoil of 5,45 makes the gun both more controlable and the round itself is more accurate and deadly becasue of that."

[jamesavery22 54]

Bingo. Nice find.

 

Again, they don't mention bullets used but still an obvious point.

 

All rounds have their advantages.

[jimdigriz 580]

Bingo. Nice find.

 

Again, they don't mention bullets used but still an obvious point.

 

All rounds have their advantages.

 

That's the first time I've seen an actual quantification of the difference in recoil between the 2 calibers. 5.45 apparently has less than half of that of 7.62x39. That's why my wife likes it so much...

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

The whole thing seems moot to me as far as penetrating body armor. Neither 7.62 or 5.45 will come close to penetrating what our men in Afghanistan wear. The SAPIs are rated to take 3 hits of AP 30-06, compared to that 5.45 is nothing. I have personally seen a SAPI shot with a .223, hardly left a ding.

[101_feind 1]

HEY LOOK AT THE SPECS OF AN AK-101, SAYS IT DOES ALOT MORE DAMAGE THAN A KALAKOV, IT IS A SUPER KALAKOV, IF IT DOES MARE THAN A KALAKOV THAN IT DOES MORE THAN AN M16 AND M4.

[veprk 12]

The whole thing seems moot to me as far as penetrating body armor. Neither 7.62 or 5.45 will come close to penetrating what our men in Afghanistan wear. The SAPIs are rated to take 3 hits of AP 30-06, compared to that 5.45 is nothing. I have personally seen a SAPI shot with a .223, hardly left a ding.

 

I do agree to a point,but ive shot armor thats meant for vehicle's and the 5.45 left a dent,viewable from the other side! the Pistol cal's I used only removed the paint.No pics,those are government property.

Im not saying the 5.45 is the best,but it doesnt get the credit it deserves here in the states.

 

As far as paying more for a 74 then for a 47,who wouldnt?? Its a better rifle

 

 

Oh,and not all our men get the good sapi.Some were sent over with flak vests

Edited January 16, 2010 by veprk

[Azrial 1,091]

Why is it that you believe that a bunch of 3rd World primitives are the ultimate authority in combat rifle selection?

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

Oh,and not all our men get the good sapi.Some were sent over with flak vests

Nobody gets sent over there with flak vests dude. Even non-combat POGs like mechanics and admin clerks get SAPIs. It is military SOP nowadays that 4 plates are to be worn by anyone leaving the wire, no exceptions. I remember wishing it wasn't the case, because they are horribly uncomfortable and kill your mobility.

[paprotective 362]

Why can't our government hire a few 'others' (aka locals ) to sell our captured AK's, and sell them to the 'terrorist' and just anniahlate (sp) them when the deal goes down.. Ohhhh. too simple a plan...

 

Works here in the US all the time... I forgot 'we' (aka cia) makes money from wars...

[jbrubaker 13]

Way too much simplification going on here.

 

What distances are we talking about? 7.62 starts having less energy than 5.45 at some point. I don't even know what it is but no one is even mentioning that.

 

That doesn't appear to be true. Just ran numbers for 7.62x39 123gr FMJ and 5.45x38 55.9gr FMJ (7N10) and at no point does the 5.45 deliver more energy than the 7.62. At 1000 yards, the 7.62 is still delivering 100 ft/lbs more than the 5.45 (208 versus 100, respectively). Of course this ignores the massive amount of drop a 7.62 will experience and all other accuracy related disadvantages to the 7.62, but the 7.62 is still hitting harder.

[BrutalGardener 205]

After the initial experience of horrific urban combat in Chechnya, some Spetsnaz and OMON units started to get re-equipped with AKMs, because 7.62x39 mm appeared to be more effective against the types of cover that often deflected the light and unstable 5.45 mm bullets and also appeared to "stop" the targets faster. Just some anecdotal evidence from the Russians...