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The legalities of conversions


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I've read through most of this board and I've yet to find the actual printing of the law that states:

 

1. What classifies an assault rifle - thus making it illegal.

 

2. Does a Saiga(specifically 7.62x39) fit this description?

 

3. If every gun is allowed '2 mistakes' is the stock Saiga using any?

 

4. If any gun modifications are made(hi-cap mag/pistol grip), they need a minimum of 5 US made parts to be used in the conversion.

 

(I'd really like to see the law for this, on this board I've seen both 5 and 6 mentioned and it REALLY just sounds like a ploy to get people to buy more parts. Heresay travels a LONG way.)

 

 

5. Also, on a side note, I'd like to know how peoples AK-30 round mag conversions(to convert the mag not the rifle) are going? Obviously filing the rear lock is easy but how are people achieving a good stable buildup of the front 1/8inch of the AK mag.

 

6. I'd also like to know if anyone is selling Saiga specific pistol grips, pistol/buttstock combination grips or dragonuv style grips and if a dragonuv style grip counts as a 'mistake' towards the gun being an assault rifle. I'd like to modify my gun but without making any modifications to the original hardware

 

Thank you,

docfu

 

 

P.S. Hard drives make excellent targets.

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AWB text

 

Answers:

 

1. Assault rifle--semi-auto with more than 2 "evil" features.

 

2. No, not in its "sporter" form.

 

3. The Siaga has one strike, the detachable mag.

 

4. This is based on importation restrictions on "non-sporting" firearms; the Saiga suddenly becomes "American-made" when you have 10 or fewer imported parts.

 

5. Yes, you need the US-made parts to do the conversion. A stock Saiga has 14 parts, so you would have to replace 4; a Saiga with a PG has 15 (since you added the PG) so you would need 5 parts. Buttstock, pistol grip, and 3 FCG parts are the easiest way to do it. You will need 6 US parts if you use some sort of muzzle attachment.

 

5. Converting the mag is very likely illegal; if it won't function in the weapon it was intended for (i.e. normal AK) then you have technically manufactured a post-ban hi-cap mag, which is a big no-no.

 

6. Look around, I saw a post about this a while ago on this board. You still may run into parts count problems since you will be using the original trigger and disconnector (the hammer is not Saiga specific). You would likely have to use US mag followers and floorplates to make it work.

 

Look around a little, most of these answers are relatively easy to find--like the AWB text... Good luck, and stay legal.

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The AWB says specifically this,

 

"`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

 

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

 

`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

 

`(iii) a bayonet mount;

 

`(iv) a flash suppressor or barrel having a threaded muzzle, and

 

`(v) a grenade launcher;

 

"

 

Ok... so let's see here. The Saiga has a detachable mag. That's check number one.

 

Next, telescoping stock? Not in it's retail format.

Pistol grip? Not in it's retail format.

Bayonet mount? Not in it's retail format.

Flash suppressor or a threaded muzzle? Not in it's retail format

Grenade launcher? Not in it's retail format.

 

Therefore, we can say that in its original format, it is legal. Now... what if we were to add a feed ramp and file down the mag catch so it would accept AK-47 mags? Would just adding that make it illegal? In such a case, one would not be manufacturing hi-cap mags (illegal) and the rifle would still be usable with the original mags (albeit a they're a bit loose). No pistol grip, nothing else. Just the mods to make it accept hi cap mags.

 

I've always heard and even said myself that it was illegal to do so. Now though, I'm beginning to wonder.

 

Anybody got any ideas?

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Check out section 922 R and 925 D (3) of The Gun Control Act (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44). Then look at the test for "sporting purposes" from the ATF's website HERE.

 

The end result is that modifying a Saiga to take hi-caps is illegal because the gun then qualifies as a non-sporting, imported weapon; you have to play the parts count game to stay legal.

 

Saigas are legal in thier original format because they are "sporting" weapons and can thus be imported; the ability to take hi-cap mags (AK mags are mentioned specifically) takes the gun out of the "sporting" category.

 

Answers to almost all the common questions are out there, but they're not all on message boards.

Edited by adam7373
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`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

 

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

 

`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

 

`(iii) a bayonet mount;

 

`(iv) a flash suppressor or barrel having a threaded muzzle, and

 

`(v) a grenade launcher;

 

 

Since 1-5 are all negative where do high-cap mags fit in? if I change the pistol grip(by default) on an already imported gun then that would count as ONE strike(not two).

 

That leaves the high-capacity mag, which isn't mentioned, mine is a pre-ban by the way.

 

I'd like to see the actual law that governs imported rifles/american parts.

 

Another question:

 

If you put a pistol grip and a high capacity mag onto a Saiga, is it not still illegal because it then becomes a Semi-automatic Assault Weapon? That's two strikes. Parts counts wouldn't matter because those apply to ALL guns.

 

docfu

Edited by docfu
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In the end, a legal post-ban weapon can have a detachable mag (which is what puts the gun under the restrictions of the AWB) and ONE other "evil" feature"; on a converted Saiga, that would be the pistol grip. Add another evil feature and you're in illegal territory. A high-capacity magazine is not one of the features in the AWB.

 

If you want to see the actual law, go find it on the ATF's website and downlaod the .pdf of the Gun Control Act. Saigas are importable under sec. 925 D (3) in that they are "sporting" guns. The hi-cap mag makes them "non-sporting" and therefore illegal to import or manufacture from imported parts; by converting the gun to take a hi-cap magazine, you are making an illegal weapon. Look up the laws for yourself if you are unconvinced; it ain't that hard.

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No kidding, now we got it settled and the only question left open is modifying high capacity AK mags to fit into a Saiga. If the mag is pre-ban it could be considered a 'reconditioning' of sorts.

 

I've seen the AK mags and if I were to do it what I would do is the following steps:

 

A. Remove the spring mechanism from the mag.

 

B. Use a wire brush(on a drill) to clean up and scrub the area to the front of the mag where you need the 1/8th inch buildup.

 

C. Build up a layer of solder on the front of the mag.

 

D. Use a piece of brass tubing(solid) about 1/2" long(measure it to be exact of course.)

 

E. Wirebrush the brass tubing(so as to get a good gripable surface)

 

F. Place the tubing on the gap and then heat the solder so it fills in.

 

G. File down the excess solder and clean up the mag.

 

H. File *UP* the mag catch on the back of the mag.

 

Now, I'm not saying this is legal and I take no responsibility for any mags converted in this process. But with brass held on by solder(which is way stronger than epoxy or JB weld, screw that stuff and don't worry about it melting either) you've got an extremely strong but smooth rounded surface for your cartridges to ride into the chamber.

 

The nice thing about this is that you don't modify the gun(thus it stays legal) and if one is modifying a pre-ban magazine it *might* be legal. Someone wanna email the BATF on this one?

 

I take it that then if you put this mag into the Saiga, it may be illegal since the law says 'manufacture a gun', but is putting an oversize mag into a gun really considered part of manufacturing?

 

docfu

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Some with a normal AK sitting next to them should check this, but I think the added material on the front of the mag would keep it from being inserted in a standard AK. I also think that fact would make it illegal, but I can't find any references to back that up; a letter to the ATF would be good if someone wants to take the time. If a modded mag will function in an AK, then it seems like a serious gray area; the Saiga would technically not be legal to import if it takes hi-cap mags (IIRC), but the mag thing seems legal if the mag would still work in the original gun...interesting.

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I've heard through local vines that people have gotten the AK mags to work only by filing down the rear so it fits. Maybe some slight problems with feeding..but since the mag would still work in an AK as well as a Saiga...(given you'd have to hold it up).

 

It's definately a gray area.

 

-docfu

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Well then.........If the BATF says an AW is defined as having a detachable mag, plus at least two or more evil features, then my custom stocks would only be a count of two, therefore legal.........at least with a stock Saiga.....or am I missing something in the gobbledee goop?

 

Regards, Jerry :rolleyes:

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Understand that the "sporting purposes" rule merely refers to the importation of a firearm. Once the firearm has been imported, the rule no longer applies. The 922R law applies to the manufacture of the defined "assault weapons", not possession, although there are documented cases of confiscation of such post-ban weapons as "contraband". I have been unaqble to document any cases where there were arrests for manufacture, although rumors abound.

 

The magazine modification rule that the mag has to fit into the gun it was originally manufactured for, is actually a tech branch ruling in a letter from BATF. It constitutes their interpretation of the law, but does not carry any force of law until it is tested in court. A copy of the letter is in the tech branch letters section over on recguns.com.

 

There is a common misconception that the BATF rules are infallable. They are not. Sometimes they get their assess handed to them on a silver platter. One notable case in which the court's treatment of the federal representative was downright hilarious is U.S. vs. One FAL Rifle, which put to rest the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" myth.

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