tree penetration tests

[jimdigriz 580]

Has anyone else tried this? I blasted a roughly 18 inch thick tree from 25 yards right in the middle tree, using Wolf FMJ for both calibers. I was not surprised to see that the 5.45 didn't exit, but I was surprised to find no exit for the 7.62x39. What kind of results have you guys gotten for penetration tests with these two calibers? (I realize that different kinds of tree will have different densities).

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

[Arik 565]

I dont know what kind of a tree it was but...One time at the range we found a tree trunk about 16in in circumference. using Russian milsurp x54 ammo @ a 100yrds it went straight trough, each shot.

[jimdigriz 580]

I dont know what kind of a tree it was but...One time at the range we found a tree trunk about 16in in circumference. using Russian milsurp x54 ammo @ a 100yrds it went straight trough, each shot.

 

Yea, I was tempted to try the Mosin M44 on it too, but I figured that might be too much even for my neighborhood. (It is not uncommon for people to shoot a bit in their backyards here, and I am firing into a sloping bank). Someone might call the police and say "Somebody's firing off a canon!!!" ;-)

 

Seriously, though, the main reason for me to have the 7.62x39 is the extra penetration. Honestly, I'm tempted to simplify my logistics by selling off the .223 and 7.62x39, picking up another 5.45 and a PSL, and stocking the 5.45 and the x54r to the roof. (Yes, I realize that both are subject to importation risks; that's the point of building a lifetime supply now).

 

Any other penetration tests that anyone has done? Any examples where x39 would get the job done but not 5.45?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

[imarangemaster 315]

I shot a 15"-16" Locus tree with 7.62x39 and 223, both FMJ. 7.63x39 went through, the 223 did not. 308 from a CETME went right through, too.

[akastormi 617]

Hell Dude. I got 16" Beech trees out back with scars where 7.62x39 when through them. A friend and I inadvertently cut a 12" Cherry down when we set a target up at it's base from 75 Yards with SKS's.

[my762buzz 141]

This is the most eye opening penetration test I have seen yet.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I dont know what kind of a tree it was but...One time at the range we found a tree trunk about 16in in circumference. using Russian milsurp x54 ammo @ a 100yrds it went straight trough, each shot.

 

Yea, I was tempted to try the Mosin M44 on it too, but I figured that might be too much even for my neighborhood. (It is not uncommon for people to shoot a bit in their backyards here, and I am firing into a sloping bank). Someone might call the police and say "Somebody's firing off a canon!!!" ;-)

 

Seriously, though, the main reason for me to have the 7.62x39 is the extra penetration. Honestly, I'm tempted to simplify my logistics by selling off the .223 and 7.62x39, picking up another 5.45 and a PSL, and stocking the 5.45 and the x54r to the roof. (Yes, I realize that both are subject to importation risks; that's the point of building a lifetime supply now).

 

Any other penetration tests that anyone has done? Any examples where x39 would get the job done but not 5.45?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

 

If you mean scientifically controlled tests no but Ive seen plenty where a simple cinder block wall stops the 22 cal rounds while the x39 penetrates much better and 308, 30-06, and 54R just blow right though that stuff. You can infer that car bodies and other such medium to light cover will have similar results. Trees vary so much from type to type but are great fun to chop down so to speak, glad Im not the only one that does bubba stuff like that.

 

The Box of Truth site has some good tests take a look there.

[patriot 7,197]

TREE penetration?? You need to get out more....but not in the forest.

[jimdigriz 580]

This is the most eye opening penetration test I have seen yet.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm

 

Very surprising to see the 12 gauge slug outperform the .308. It could be that the glass was already compromised from the other hits though.

[Frankyoz 15]

I went through a MOUT Instructor course while I was on Active Duty with the Corps. We watched a kick ass video of a comparison of the 5.56 and the 7.62x39 and the x51 being shot into cinder walls, mud walls, a small house and a wood reinforced sand bag bunker. I can tell you that I was SHOCKED at how far the 5.556 will get or I should say NOT get. That was my first real eye opener to the limited capabilities of the round. Meanwhile the fucking 7.62 was tearing through 3-4 rooms of a house after hitting dummies that were set up in the room, and the x51 was rolling through the house. Do not think that your tree test will give you any indeication on real world penetration. The 5.56 will penetrate a complete cinder block after a couple shots, the 7.62x39 only takes 1. Trust me if your ever firing at targets behind cover do not grab a 5.56 or smaller caliber. A 7.62 turns there cover into nothing more than concealment. I could go on about my experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan but nothing convinced me more than that video. Seeing them tested side by side against a variety of materials and real world scenarios was awesome. If you got targets out in the open sure grab your 5.56 or 39 whatever but behind stuff or in dense foilage the 7.62 is punishing to your target and leaves little to find cover behind.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Blazed30

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Seriously, though, the main reason for me to have the 7.62x39 is the extra penetration. Honestly, I'm tempted to simplify my logistics by selling off the .223 and 7.62x39, picking up another 5.45 and a PSL, and stocking the 5.45 and the x54r to the roof. (Yes, I realize that both are subject to importation risks; that's the point of building a lifetime supply now).

 

Any other penetration tests that anyone has done? Any examples where x39 would get the job done but not 5.45?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

 

I wouldn't sell the 7.62x39 just yet.

 

You need to watch

video.

 

It annoys me that they edited out all but the very end of the AK test, but the results are still listed. 7.62x39 blasts through all the types of walls in the test building, from both angles. They don't test 5.45x39, but they do test 5.56x45... it fails to get the job done against brick at 45 degrees, and doesn't penetrate the cinderblock wall from any angle.

Edited January 27, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[jimdigriz 580]

 

I wouldn't sell the 7.62x39 just yet.

 

You need to watch

video.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

I figured you would chime in, being the foremost advocate of the 7.62x39 caliber on the forum. ;-)

 

Tell me this, though: Why couldn't a PSL serve as my heavy hitter? .308 and x54r are nearly equivalent, yet people seem to view the PSL only as a long range gun, whereas they treat .308 as a nearly all purpose combat round.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[my762buzz 141]

This is the most eye opening penetration test I have seen yet.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm

 

Very surprising to see the 12 gauge slug outperform the .308. It could be that the glass was already compromised from the other hits though.

 

 

 

 

 

There is an LEO on another board that once posted about how some badguy was running from the him and hid behind a dumpster refusing to give up.

One of his fellow LEO's went to his truck and pulled out a .45-70 rifle and fired at the dumpster. The bullet went all the way through and hit the wall behind the dumpster.

The badguy immmediately came out and surrendered. I want to see someone pull that off with a .308,.30-06, 7.62x54, or .300 win mag.

[imarangemaster 315]

IN June of 1874, at the second battle of Adobe Walls, TX a buffalo runner (hunter) named Billy Dixon shot an Indian off of a horse at almost one mile (measured) with a Sharps "Big 50" .50-450-90. That is a .510 inch bullet, 450 grains, and 90 grains of coarse FG black powder. Mass carries. That's why I like the 7.62x39 vs.5.45x39. it will do more damage at 300.

[jimdigriz 580]

IN June of 1874, at the second battle of Adobe Walls, TX a buffalo runner (hunter) named Billy Dixon shot an Indian off of a horse at almost one mile (measured) with a Sharps "Big 50" .50-450-90. That is a .510 inch bullet, 450 grains, and 90 grains of coarse FG black powder. Mass carries. That's why I like the 7.62x39 vs.5.45x39. it will do more damage at 300.

 

Hmm...maybe, maybe not. To quote from a summary of East German studies on the two rounds (posted recently in another thread):

 

"The basic specs were that they shot convicts at 300 meters who were on death row with a two round auto burst from an AKM and an AK-74 using randomly selected consripts. The results at 300 meters were;

AKM;

29% of both rounds hitting

50% chance of death if both rounds hit

7.49 joules of recoil energy

AK-74;

40% chance of both rounds hitting

64% chance of death if both rounds hit

3.39 joules of recoil energy"

 

Obviously, this study could be improved, but it is suggestive. I'd expect the results to be a bit different at 100 yards, and if the AKM was using JHP.

 

The AK 74 round is established in my house, since my wife loves her Saiga 5.45 rifle, and the ammo is very cheap. The only question is whether to retain the 7.62x39. I've pretty much decided already to cut loose the .223 Saiga in favor of another 5.45 rifle. No point in stocking up deep on 5.45 if I've only got one rifle that can fire it.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[paprotective 362]

I agree on the 2 many varibles thing.. Types of trees. Maple, Oak, Pine, Birch... etc.. Age of the tree = number of rings,, etc....

 

I was plowing thru a 10" dia tree (maple I think) with my 7.62x39 Saiga at like 45 yards no problems..

 

Tree PORN...>>>

 

 

 

 

... was slated to be cut down my brother-in-law said anyway...

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

The thing is in all these discussions is how effective six inches of sand can be, good old dirt still reigns supreme after all this time. Even just the width of a 2x4 of sand will give surprising cover if you get my meaning. Ive seen this mentioned in a lot of discussions on building "safe" rooms though I can't imagine why that would ever useful

[imarangemaster 315]

IN June of 1874, at the second battle of Adobe Walls, TX a buffalo runner (hunter) named Billy Dixon shot an Indian off of a horse at almost one mile (measured) with a Sharps "Big 50" .50-450-90. That is a .510 inch bullet, 450 grains, and 90 grains of coarse FG black powder. Mass carries. That's why I like the 7.62x39 vs.5.45x39. it will do more damage at 300.

 

Hmm...maybe, maybe not. To quote from a summary of East German studies on the two rounds (posted recently in another thread):

 

"The basic specs were that they shot convicts at 300 meters who were on death row with a two round auto burst from an AKM and an AK-74 using randomly selected consripts. The results at 300 meters were;

AKM;

29% of both rounds hitting

50% chance of death if both rounds hit

7.49 joules of recoil energy

AK-74;

40% chance of both rounds hitting

64% chance of death if both rounds hit

3.39 joules of recoil energy"

 

Obviously, this study could be improved, but it is suggestive. I'd expect the results to be a bit different at 100 yards, and if the AKM was using JHP.

 

The AK 74 round is established in my house, since my wife loves her Saiga 5.45 rifle, and the ammo is very cheap. The only question is whether to retain the 7.62x39. I've pretty much decided already to cut loose the .223 Saiga in favor of another 5.45 rifle. No point in stocking up deep on 5.45 if I've only got one rifle that can fire it.

 

 

Interesting study. Like the Japanese "Unit 731" bureau using Chinese prisoners to test bullets, bombs, and biological agents. Unless I am mistaken, I believe the East Germans used Russian style 7.62x39 Boat tail, that does not yaw for about 8 to 12 inches. It may have been different results with M67 Yugo style flat base (like Barnaul now uses) as it yaws and drifts like 5.45 within 4 inches.

[leadslinger 37]

The thing is in all these discussions is how effective six inches of sand can be, good old dirt still reigns supreme after all this time. Even just the width of a 2x4 of sand will give surprising cover if you get my meaning. Ive seen this mentioned in a lot of discussions on building "safe" rooms though I can't imagine why that would ever useful

 

 

I have used the manure pit to test fire the Saiga 7.62 and S12 (00 buck and slug). The pit is a mix of poop and saw dust. I usually wait for about two to three feet of thickness. No exits of any kind at 10 foot distance. It is amazing at how the saw dust dissipates and or absorbs the velocity of this rounds.

 

Don't sell that 7.62 best bang for your SHTF buck. If you are going to sell that .223 let me know as i would like to complete the set provided you hold it untill my tax return comes in.

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm definitely going to sell the .223. Still not sure about the other yet. My brother has first dibs on either - he's been wanting an AK - but I will try the forum after that. Not sure if it can wait until after tax returns, we'll see. (I haven't even gotten my W2 yet, have you?). I'll PM you before I post the .223.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[GregM1 241]

the W-2's. mine had came in the mail this last saturday. filed that night. less than 20 hours later, the IRS approved it. Now I am waiting on the . And if all is still going according to plan, I will be getting a 7.62x39 saiga soon.

 

This is a good thread. Here is a photo of a yellow pine that I hit with a Mosin. Made a nice expansion.

 

Edited January 27, 2010 by GregM1

[scoutjoe 276]

Entirely too many variables...species, time of year, way tree is shot, distance, etc etc

 

 

What do I know about wood though I only hold two Forestry degrees

 

BTW My Yugo RPK felled a tree by a relatively new shooter, hard maple, late spring 50yds, 12" DBH....

[jimdigriz 580]

This is a good thread. Here is a photo of a yellow pine that I hit with a Mosin. Made a nice expansion.

 

Very nice indeed. What kind of ammo was used?

[GregM1 241]

This is a good thread. Here is a photo of a yellow pine that I hit with a Mosin. Made a nice expansion.

 

Very nice indeed. What kind of ammo was used?

 

 

sorry forgot the important part.

 

yellow pine is a soft wood but that was 203gr brown bear soft point 7.62x54r freestanding at 50 yards. was a cavity that was about 3 inches deep. to bad it didnt hit center of the tree though.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Now this what should be on that lumberjack show Ax-Men, now that would be a hoot to watch.

[leadslinger 37]

I'm definitely going to sell the .223. Still not sure about the other yet. My brother has first dibs on either - he's been wanting an AK - but I will try the forum after that. Not sure if it can wait until after tax returns, we'll see. (I haven't even gotten my W2 yet, have you?). I'll PM you before I post the .223.

 

 

Jim Pm sent.

[jimdigriz 580]

Some more tree penetration tests last weekend with the Mosin M44, using 60 year old Polish light ball surplus, from about 25 yards. This has been a useful exercise, because it dispelled some erroneous beliefs I had about what my guns were capable of. The 7.62x54r ammo failed to exit a tree 2 feet in diameter, and another about 21 inches in diameter. It did manage to puncture all the way through a tree that was about 18 inches in diameter and leave some nice "exit wounds".

Edited February 3, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[paprotective 362]

Jim the FIREBALL from 25 yards must have been huge to punch thru an 18" tree.

 

That x54r is nothing to laugh at though.. Wish the 308 Saiga was x54r though.. I'd pay $6-700 for that..

 

Chrome lined and AK action.. and soooo sexy BLACK....

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim the FIREBALL from 25 yards must have been huge to punch thru an 18" tree.

I once heard that Mosins should be used for home defense, because not only will the intruder be shot, they'll be deaf, blind, on fire, and all the way back down the hall! ;-)

 

 

That x54r is nothing to laugh at though.. Wish the 308 Saiga was x54r though.. I'd pay $6-700 for that..

 

There is an x54r Saiga, it's just not imported.

[Frankyoz 15]

I did some cinder block penetrating this week with my PSL good times lol