Will486 7 Posted January 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 oh my god. i leave thread for a few hours. this is what happens. complete and total derailment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 I like it, but cost will be a factor for me. And I love AR's I have been able to enjoy AR-15's due to me being able to build them piece by piece. S-12 was pretty affordable, then I slowly built it up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga. I, and I am sure many others here are well over the $550 price tag of a stock S12. Including the 10 mags I have I would guess I am $1300 or so into my main S12. Some of that includes a red dot and flash light but it is easy to get $1K dollars, particularly when adding things like rails, mag wells, AR stocks etc. The fact is that AR is a total unknown so it is pretty imposible to pass judgment on it. For me the determinative factors would be as follows: Reliability:If it is not reliable I have no interest in it. One of the things I like about my S12 is it has proven its self very reliable. Durability: I am not interested in guns unless they can hold up to hard use. Price: The price point on this thing will probably go a long ways to determining how successful it is. Given the price of a piston AR, CMMG ARs, and what the proprietary parts you cannot imagine these will be cheap. Aftermarket support: what mags are available? How much will they cost? etc. How it shoots and handles: If it was well executed it could certainly steal a lot of the S12's thunder. It will be interesting to see if it ever comes to production and if so what it is like. The AK vs AR debate would have a whole new dimension. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) Ahhh, semantics! Lets start something here, For simplicity, we can call what has been coined as "high capacity" mags "tactical" mags. I think it would catch on. Would that work? Now if we could just change the term "Homophobic" to something that's a little more accurate for one who believes that that lifestyle is detrimental to societies in general. Edited January 28, 2010 by Paulyski Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 I, and I am sure many others here are well over the $550 price tag of a stock S12. Including the 10 mags I have I would guess I am $1300 or so into my main S12. Some of that includes a red dot and flash light but it is easy to get $1K dollars, particularly when adding things like rails, mag wells, AR stocks etc. Exactly. The gun is $550. Then a NICS, sales tax, you're almost at $600 out the door. Basic conversion is like $100-150 in parts, not to mention many people use $100 handguards and $90 sights and such. Some go for other pieces and the total goes waaaaay more. Saying an S-12 costs $550 is somewhat misleading. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 How much I spent on my S12... About $500 on the main gun $30 on the G2 double hook trigger kit $40 on tromix trigger gaurd... $20 on tapco pistol grip $15 on tapco stock $120 on MAA stock, internal adapter, and ace folder $120 on chaos rail = 845 I'm not even going to think about how much I spent on AGP mags and the MD20 drum.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) Exactly. The gun is $550. Then a NICS, sales tax, you're almost at $600 out the door. Basic conversion is like $100-150 in parts, not to mention many people use $100 handguards... Not me. I keep things simple and use the factory handguard: ...Some go for other pieces and the total goes waaaaay more. Saying an S-12 costs $550 is somewhat misleading. That's a good point, we'll have to see what these CCMG 12's sell for if/when they come to market. I don't particularly like AR's, so these guns would have to have some significant advantages over the S-12, (which I doubt), to even get my attention. We'll see. Edited January 28, 2010 by post-apocalyptic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Star Arms 2,047 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Well, perhaps showing my age here, but when I see a shotgun (or any firearm) designed for military/defense, I assume it'll have a nice large capacity magazine. One that "holds lots of bullets", ya know? At which point, that's the "intended" or "designed" capacity for the gun. At which point, I'd just call it a "CMMG shotgun magazine" and expect folks to know that it holds "a lot of bullets". Same as saying "AR mag" - you know AR mags hold 20 or 30 rounds, usually, with occasional appearances of 200+ round snail drums . . I just don't like vindicating the anti's by using their own bullsh** phrases . . . fair enough.. I guess he could have said "I bet they havn't made any drums or mags for it yet".. That probably would have worked.. so I see your point I have to say though that I feel like being afraid to use a term just because they consider it offensive is in some ways conceding to them.. I'll call a semi automatic an assault rifle with no qualms if it's a military black gun (designed for.. uhh assault!) regardless of what people say about it terminology wise.. I have a right to own one for my protection, and yes I own it for assaulting someone who invades my home attacks my family, it is my rifle for assaulting purposes! Maybe hd rifle would be more accurate.. but I don't care. I'll also call a high cap mag a high cap, and if it stings them, they can go fuck themselves. It's not like appealing to their wording slows the bastards intent. Well, im glad you got the difference between a Neutered Mag and a Mag, but im sorry i have to question what you said after. How is you defending your family the same as assaulting someone? how does the colour of the rifle make it more assaultworthy? An assault rifle is defined as a selective fire rifle designed for combat that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. Assault rifles are the standard infantry weapons in most modern armies. I dont know what you are packing, but i dont have any select fire weapons designed for combat. I have practical all purpose semi automatic rifles designed for civilians to use however they want. I guess you could call it a Semi Automatic Clone of an Assault Rifle, but that seems pretty wordy. A rifle is a rifle, no matter how you dress it up. If you had to differentiate between friendly and angry looking semi auto rifles, you can always call them Evil Black Rifles, and poke fun at the antis, or I call them Sport Utility Rifles, as they look alot like they could go offroad, but really, its just about looks, to sell en mass to americans. I like "Evil Black Rifles" or "EBR". Sounds sort of official and cool... "SUR".... well I'm not to sure about that. Anyway, give me an EBR, with plenty of HCM's, and I'm a happy man! WS 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergunner 12 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 I'll stick with my S12's thank you very much. WS +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
red_cedar 28 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 If they can get the bugs out I'll get one. Looks like one mean looking shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldandslow 3 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 I must be stupid. I thought this was 1952. Each part has to be had made one at a time.... Oh wait! It's 2010. They got stuff like CAD CAM. Draw it, run it through the various interference algorithms, build a prototype. If it shoots a box of ammo successfully, send the build data to the various machine shops for a quote. Build it. Give a copy to Taran Butler to win a World 3-Gun Championship. Sell it. Too easy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarPD 6 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 It is said that imitiation is the sincerest form of flattery. While the overall design of the AR-12, or whatever they call it may be different than the S-12, it supposedly performs the same function, that is, a semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun in a "tactical" configuration, hopefully with high capacity magazines (compared to ordinary shotguns). IF it turns out to be reliable, I think it's a good thing, if only because it will increase popularity for the idea. Yes, it will be more expensive, but based on my own S-12, and what I read here about others, it may not be that much more expensive than a converted, or rather, restored S-12. Most folks here do either buy converted S-12s or do it themselves, and the cost ends up being close to what the expected price range for the new AR-12 will be. It won't be long before accessories are available just like the S-12, and I suspect at least some of our vendors will jump on the bandwagon and start making good accessories for the new gun. In truth, this new shotgun is long overdue. I can't believe that American makers have waited so long to copy the idea of making a shotgun from a rifle base as Izhmash did. Right now the big question is whether or not adequate capacity mags will be available, but for sure, they will eventually enter the market, possibly by folks like AGP and Surefire, who have experience making mags over 5 round capacity for the S-12. Think of this as an alternative for the S-12, and maybe with better quality control than Saiga puts into their S-12s, a good thing to be sure. If the maker does bring the AR-12 to market, look for an expansion of use of this kind of shotgun, which would give us more choices. Not to say that S-12 owners would dump their S-12s, but that more shooters would enter the high capacity fast shooting semi-auto shotgun field. I think this would even increase the market for S-12s, if only for the increased popularity of semi-auto shotguns in the tactical configuration. If the new AR-12 has piston driven operation, and an adjustable gas system, it promises to be a winner, and will provide another choice of this type of shotgun, which can only be a good thing. Personally, I'm glad to see American gun makers wise up and jump on the bandwagon to build state of the art semi-auto shotguns. My opinion that those who resent an American maker building fast shooting mag fed, piston operated shotguns are being parochial in their outlook. They need to rethink their positions, and welcome a new alternative to the excellent S-12s we all love and enjoy. IF the maker DOES produce and sell this semi-auto tactical shotgun, I predict that this forum will add another section addressing AR-12s, and provide user input and answers just like they have done so well with the S-12. Do note the built-in standard full length rail on top that allows for the use of ANY kind of sighting system, a real plus in my book. Also, it will include the same manual of arms as the AR15, and hopefully a USEABLE BHO and LRBHO that is not a Mickey mouse add-on that can cause trouble. Wait and watch to see how this pans out, and if the new shotgun proves out, welcome it with open arms. It can only help our love of semi-auto shotguns, and add to the number of folks who appreciate the very existence of this type of shotgun. Who knows, it could even lead Saiga to improve their product and quality, eliminating the complaints some of us have with their S-12s, and the frustration chasing down failures caused by Saiga's iffy quality control. I say give it a chance to prove itself, if it actually come to market that is. If not, we have our beloved S-12s to fall back on, not too hard to bear. If it does prove out, I will certainly buy one, although like many, will keep my beloved S-12. Too many is like horsepower, money and sex; "Too much is almost enough". 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) I must be stupid. I thought this was 1952. Each part has to be had made one at a time.... Oh wait! It's 2010. They got stuff like CAD CAM. Draw it, run it through the various interference algorithms, build a prototype. If it shoots a box of ammo successfully, send the build data to the various machine shops for a quote. Build it. Give a copy to Taran Butler to win a World 3-Gun Championship. Sell it. Too easy. lol That's the mentality that creates Chinese junk knockoffs of quality products. The AR 12 gauge pictured by the OP is a prototype. We don't even know if it functions at all let alone if the parts in it would survive long term use. Yes it could be made, but until CMMG announces a TARGET release date it is nothing more than a prototype that gets attention at the show. Edited January 28, 2010 by hobbyshooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 As posted before several times, a stock or converted Saiga under a grand has nothing in common with what this "looks" to be. More in the area of a Tromix or R and R Racing gun. Until they actually release this the entire post is just speculation, but the OP had good intent. I own CMMG AR's and I will say if they produce this it will be world class in fit and finish, made here in the good ol USA (my state to boot), and customer service will bet top notch. I'll always love my Saiga's, but that doesn't mean something just as good or better can't be developed. As for price, we were all given free will to do what we want in life. We had a member recently post a completed project that he spent a lot of time and money on to make his look as authentic as possible to the versions sold oversea's. It's easily one of the top 5 best looking conversions I've ever seen posted on the board. Not ONE person pissed and moaned about what it cost, he did it simply because he wanted to. This thread was about a gun, not politics or money Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 I just called and talked to them, will have more info tomorrow (maybe), but as of now the project has been dropped and will not go into production. For the competition guys, you gotta remember, it is a prototype and must sell 500 units before it is accepted as a production shotgun (USPSA). Not sure about outlaw rules, probably the same. I am guessing the magazine production might be an issue. It is easier to design/build the gun than it is to go into production with the magazines. Especially not knowing what the sales/market/political situation might be. Will post more as I find out. Jack JT Engineering/Millennium Custom II Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Three points for you all to consider, and they all revovle around magazines. First, the magazine well of an AR and the magazien retention system require mags to be straight (at least at the top) and inserted straight in. While the latter is a benefit, the former makes "magazines with a capacity over five rounds" difficult, if not imposible, to adapt to the system. If you own an AR, you know the pain of dual geometry (as in, not constant curve) magazine designs. Second, the mag well also make the whole "drum" question a lot more complex. This is why reliable AK drums have been around for years but reliable AR drums are rare and comparatively expensive. Third, this thing is not going to take a double stack magazine. When Mike comes out with his in, say, six months, he will blow the top off the market. Ultimately, the AR magwell is great for rifles but poor for shotguns. If this were slanted and redesigned to function a bit more like R&R's mag well, CMMG would have a better chance. Also, if this is anything like the gas-piston AR market in general, everyone involved will be pushing their own fundamentally similar but proprietary design. The beauty of the Saiga is that the Russians did the basics and gave us a platofrm that is simple, reliable and ready for modification. Now WE, the CONSUMER, have come together in a forum like this and bounced ideas around. Some guys have done a lot of technical innovation, and they support and inspire one another. CMMG, no matter how good their team is, works in a vacuum, and their product will reflect it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 I'll stick with my S12's thank you very much. WS +1 +2! The only Stoner I own is an AR-7, and that is only because there is no similar pack away .22 to be had. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucas_061287 0 Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Oh man, I was expecting a can-o-worms when I clicked this thread. OP- Be careful man! Talking about AR platforms on an AK site? Are you insane? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JOCELLO15 2 Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga. Not a great comparison, because the CCMG one comes with a pistol grip, top rail, magwell, etc. Take a stock Saiga12, add on all the typical mods people want (done by a real smith) and you're easily at the 1k mark. I FULLY COVERTED MY S12 FOR 700 INCLUDING THE PRICE OF THE GUN AND IT WONT JAM LIKE A AR..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga. I FULLY CONVERTED MY S12 FOR 700 INCLUDING THE PRICE OF THE GUN AND IT WONT JAM LIKE AN AR..... No, if it jams, it'll jam like an AK. An AR, used and maintained properly, is very reliable. It doesn't jam like a Toyota either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucas_061287 0 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Oh man, like I said- CAN-O-WORMS!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IronRonin 19 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 I refer to them as "full capacity" mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nycGUNguy 61 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Reminds me of a Ruger 1022 on steroids made up to look like an AR. Why can't someone mock up a shotgun on the action of a Garand or M14, aka Mini-12 or Mini 20 style? Anything as long as it's engineered and made in USA. Just my 2 cents, what do I know, I'm just an Electrician in this world of gun gurus and wizards... nyclu3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philg80 1 Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 As and FYI, WAKAL posted on the Brian Enos Forum that the G3 AR lower will allow a smoothed Surefire magazine to fit its magwell...That is not saying it would be compatible with the system but there is a good chance it might with the right coaxing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GuyFoX 24 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think a 12g based on the AR system could certainly have potential(though I think for a number of reasons our beloved 12g AK has much greater potential, much of which is just now beginning to be realized). However I have to wonder if this 12g AR ever did make it to market and become popular, if it might get a little too much attention? It seems likely that if/when another BS firearms ban(ie the inaccurately name "assault weapons ban") occurs, the S12 would definitely be on the list, and if the 12g AR got popular and brought more attention to the S12, it could get blacklisted even sooner. I'm already a little worried about how much attention the S12 is getting, and I think that something like this would probably just make it worse? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JOCELLO15 2 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) Saiga 12 $550.00. I bet the CCMG 12 will be at least $950.00. $400.00 extra for what? I'll stick with the Saiga. I FULLY CONVERTED MY S12 FOR 700 INCLUDING THE PRICE OF THE GUN AND IT WONT JAM LIKE AN AR..... No, if it jams, it'll jam like an AK. An AR, used and maintained properly, is very reliable. It doesn't jam like a Toyota either. oh is that why they put that little shell extractor on the side of the gun you know that little knob that smacks the jammed shell out comes standard on all ar15,s gee guess they knew they jammed when they built them!!! oh and toyotas suck!!lol Edited March 8, 2010 by PUNISHER15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucas_061287 0 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think a 12g based on the AR system could certainly have potential(though I think for a number of reasons our beloved 12g AK has much greater potential, much of which is just now beginning to be realized). However I have to wonder if this 12g AR ever did make it to market and become popular, if it might get a little too much attention? It seems likely that if/when another BS firearms ban(ie the inaccurately name "assault weapons ban") occurs, the S12 would definitely be on the list, and if the 12g AR got popular and brought more attention to the S12, it could get blacklisted even sooner. I'm already a little worried about how much attention the S12 is getting, and I think that something like this would probably just make it worse? Very good point... very disturbing point, but a good one nonetheless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm all for it. I hear it all the time that Saiga-12 is too expensive and the mags are too expensive blah blah blah.... This from guys with $4000+ Open PISTOLS and $2500+ AR Rifles. But Damnit, a $750 basic conversion is WAAAY too much money when you have to buy $50 mags I Really want this to come out and cost like $1500 base and each mag cost $50 and watch the AR fanbois flock to it and then I'll ask "How much was that? Oh, i thought Saiga-12 was too expensive, but your $1500 gun, 200 worth of mags, $500 optics, etc etc are cheap?" Plus it'll get all the other guys into the 21st century. Like I say to them, I don't show up to compete with a tube-fed lever-action rifle and then complain that it's not fair you have an AR, so don't come and compete with a tube fed then complain about my Saiga. They say it's not reliable and yet they don't say that about their benellis or berettas or winchesters or whatever, when they jam up. And they DO jam up. I've had ONE jam in all of my competitions, with a Surefire mag. I switched back to my AGPs because of this. 12 capacity isn't worth the issue. I say "Bring it on" but i also say "It'll never happen because they don't have the Cajones to go through with it!" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think a 12g based on the AR system could certainly have potential(though I think for a number of reasons our beloved 12g AK has much greater potential, much of which is just now beginning to be realized). However I have to wonder if this 12g AR ever did make it to market and become popular, if it might get a little too much attention? It seems likely that if/when another BS firearms ban(ie the inaccurately name "assault weapons ban") occurs, the S12 would definitely be on the list, and if the 12g AR got popular and brought more attention to the S12, it could get blacklisted even sooner. I'm already a little worried about how much attention the S12 is getting, and I think that something like this would probably just make it worse? Very good point... very disturbing point, but a good one nonetheless. That's just living in fear. Don't volunteer to restrict your own rights out of fear of hurting the liberal pussy's feelings. When you see that happening, it means it's already too late. Everything in the Bill of Rights needs to be exercised to be maintained. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 I think a 12g based on the AR system could certainly have potential(though I think for a number of reasons our beloved 12g AK has much greater potential, much of which is just now beginning to be realized). However I have to wonder if this 12g AR ever did make it to market and become popular, if it might get a little too much attention? It seems likely that if/when another BS firearms ban(ie the inaccurately name "assault weapons ban") occurs, the S12 would definitely be on the list, and if the 12g AR got popular and brought more attention to the S12, it could get blacklisted even sooner. I'm already a little worried about how much attention the S12 is getting, and I think that something like this would probably just make it worse? Very good point... very disturbing point, but a good one nonetheless. That's just living in fear. Don't volunteer to restrict your own rights out of fear of hurting the liberal pussy's feelings. When you see that happening, it means it's already too late. Everything in the Bill of Rights needs to be exercised to be maintained. +1 Some people refuse to exercise the right to open carry because it might scare someone. Fuck'em. I find people look at your face first. Smile, be polite, open doors for ladies, shake hands, break the ice with the grocery clerk who has had a long day, wish the customer service people a good day before they tell you and tell them thank you. I make it my goal to leave people feeling a little better than they did before I showed up. On the other hand you have to be able to read the people that are beyond help. In the end I want people thinking "Wow, that was a nice guy... Hmm.. did he have a gun???" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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