what is the difference between a Vepr and the Saiga?

[SomethingEZ 5]

Whats the difference?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Whats the difference?

 

They are both AK platforms but are produced by different Russian companies in different factories. Think Ford and GM.

 

WS

[saigafreake 27]

veprs have thicker receivers and barrels.

[sudaevpps43 31]

In a nutshell Saiga rifles and shotguns are based on the regular Kalashnikov assault rifle (i.e. AK pattern) design, while Vepr rifles and shotguns are based on the light-machinegun version (i.e. RPK pattern) of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. The main differences between the AK and RPK being that the RPK has a longer and thicker barrel, a wider front trunnion with a larger barrel opening to accomodate the thicker barrel, and a thicker receiver with a pocket at the front to accomodate the wider front trunnion. Incidentally, because of differences to the receiver and barrel, the AK and RPK use different forearms and buttstocks which are not interchangeable with one another (though the pistol grips of the AK and RPK are interchangeable).

 

In case you were wondering why the Saiga and Vepr are based on different versions of the Kalashnikov, as WaffenSchmied mentioned it is because they are made at different factories. Saigas are made at Izhmash, and Veprs are made at Molot.

 

During Soviet times all Soviet military small arms production, including of course production of the Kalashnikov series, was done at three state run factories, Izhmash, Tula, and Molot. Under the Soviet system of specialization and centralization of production, each of the three factories was assigned to produce a particular variant of the Kalashnikov. Izhmash made all the assault rifle (AK) variants of the Kalashnikov, Tula made the specialized short-barreled (AKS-74U) variant, and Molot made all the light-machinegun (RPK) variants of the Kalashnikov. So each factory was tooled up to only make its own specific variant of the AK.

 

Fast-forward to the end of the cold war and the collapse of the Soviet Union, and Izhmash, Tula, and Molot became (for a while at least) independent companies no longer under state control, and they were each now free to design, put into production, and sell their own designs. Naturally any new firearms designs they came up with, were usually ones that could be made using the machinery and tooling each of the factories had already been set up with from the Soviet era. So when Izhmash started making self-loading rifles and shotguns based on the Kalashnikov design, they were based on the regular AK pattern. While when Molot started making their Kalashnikov type self-loading rifles and shotguns, they were of course instead based on the RPK pattern (by the way, Tula so far hasn't put any shotguns into production, or built any Kalashnikov pattern firearms other than the AKS-74U they have always made). Incidentally Izhmash now also owns Molot. A year or two ago Izhmash filed suit in a Russian court claiming they had exclusive patent rights on the Kalashnikov design. The Russian court agreed and ordered Molot to pay a settlement to Izhmash which was of an amount that Molot couldn't afford, so Molot was forced to transfer its assets (i.e. the Molot factory) to Izhmash to cover the settlement. In the end all it really amounted to was Molot now being owned and run by the same people who own and run Izhmash (I have no idea what the situation between Izhmash and Tula is, just that Tula is still definitely in business).

Edited January 30, 2010 by Frogfoot

[memphisjim 0]

does that mean the vepr is tougher?

[sudaevpps43 31]

does that mean the vepr is tougher?

 

Well since an RPK receiver is thicker than an AK receiver, an RPK receiver is stronger than an AK receiver in the same way that say a 6x6" wooden beam is stronger than a 4x4" wooden beam, but then an RPK receiver is also heavier than an AK receiver, adding weight to the firearm (for the same cartridge chamberings and equal barrel lengths, a Vepr rifle typically weighs around at least a pound and a half more than a Saiga rifle). Molot makes Veprs using RPK style receivers because that is what the Molot factory is tooled up to make, not because there is really any inherent advantage to using an RPK receiver over an AK receiver in the role of a shoulder fired self-loading rifle or shotgun.

 

The RPK light machinegun was designed the way it was (as a squad support weapon not as an assault rifle) because it needed to have a greater range than an AK (longer barrel to increase bullet velocity which increases range), would on average fire more rounds during combat than an AK (thicker heavier barrel enables more rounds to be fired before overheating), and unlike an AK which would usually be fired from the shoulder, the RPK would almost always be fired on the ground from the bipod mounted at the end of it's barrel (wider front trunnion and thicker receiver with a pocket for the front trunnion was to better support the longer and heavier barrel and the weight forces acting on the RPK, which in the firing position was like a beam being supported at just its two ends, one end by the bipod and the other end by the shooter).

 

So in strictly technical terms the Vepr has a stronger receiver than an AK, but as proven by decades of use the AK receiver is definitely more than strong enough to be used in a long arm that will be fired from the shoulder, while also weighing less than a firearm made with an RPK type receiver. Of course the weight difference between a Vepr and a Saiga, while noticeable, is not drastic and so some don't mind the extra weight of a Vepr when compared to a Saiga. Interestingly, from those I have heard of who prefer Veprs over Saigas they say their main reason for preferring the Vepr is just that it has a better fit and finish from the factory than the Saiga does. Of course if you are in the U.S. it's all a moot point since all we can currently get here are Saigas (though there were some Vepr rifles imported back in the early 2000s).

Edited January 30, 2010 by Frogfoot

[mollysman420 19]

Vepr

[mollysman420 19]

Saiga 308

[Sir5 1]

Saiga 308

 

I believe I've read somewhere that a saiga .308 also has an RPK receiver to support the stronger caliber... so it's very similar to the vepr.

[mollysman420 19]

They both have bulged trunnions, the Saiga only on the Rt. side of the gun, Vepr on both.

 

The Vepr barrel is slightly larger in diameter. Mag availability sucks for the Vepr notice the Saiga mag!!!

[konoplya 0]

Vepr is Ukrainian and Saiga is Russian.

[guncats 4]

The Vepr has a real RPK type receiver, it has both bulges AND the 1.5mm wall thickness.

The Saiga has only one bulge and is 1.0mm thick.

Edited March 19, 2011 by guncats

[dvdcrr 0]

the above is correct, however the Vepr 308 barrel is smaller in diameter slightly than the Saiga 308 barrel. The Vepr I built was admired by the range members here and one told me it was definitely lighter than his FAL. FWIW I have done conversions on both Vepr and Saiga 21 inch rifles and the Saiga did not balance as well and was not quite as accurate. YMMV. Also the Vepr receiver has a cross support pin sitting low and in front of the hammer which will require heavy mods to an AK hammer or a special Vepr hammer. My Vepr (stupidly sold) had the best finish and smoothest function of an AK I ever saw.

[InTTruder 11]

Are there other dimensional differences?  For instance, the difference between the front of the trunnion and the gas block/cylinder, lengths of the associated handguard sections, etc?  

Do all VEPRs use the AK-102 (sic) combination FSB/gas cylinder?  And do all Saiga shotguns use the cylinder with a smaller tamp foresight?