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.223 vs the 5.45


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I've been reading up on the 223 Saigas and the 5.45 versions. I own a 16" 7.62x39 Saiga currently.

 

The plus for the .223/5.56 (US made ammo supplies) and the ability to use AR mags with an adaptor.

 

The plus for the 5.45x39 (AK74) is the SURPLUS ammo and the ability to use AK74 mags and they have bbl threads already on the barrel under the 'sleeve'.

 

Now the ammo is cheaper with 5.45, BUT I can find some 223/5.56 ammo in bulk for only $50-60 more per 1000 case and it seems to be dropping..

 

I am leaning to 223 because of the ammo supply being US.

IF I go with either I'm dressing it either BLONDE IronWood wood or the setup I have on the LEFT <<<< (with Tapco FDE handguard, PG, stock) and then put the BLONDE on the x39 I have...

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Also remember you're dealing with an AK here, the steel-cased Brown Bear and Wolf ammo works just fine in these things. A 1,000 rnd case of brown bear is like $250.

All of the 16" inch chrony results I have seen for the M193 from a 16"are about 3100 to 3150. 20" inch runs 3250-3300 for the same loads. Ammo oracle has lots of great information. When you drop to

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If you already have a gun in 223 that uses ar mags, I would say the 223 for sure. The price for the AK 223 mags is kinda high. Cheapest I have seen lately is about 22$ each. You have a lot of good choices of a many varieties of ammo too. You could use cheap wolf or bear, or you could go for hornady or black hills; yet there is a large variety inbetween including various grains. There should be a nice steady supply of ammo for a long time too.

 

I think all the 5.45 surplus ammo is a corrosive type. Requires a more thorough cleaning after each use. The cheap surplus is bound to dry up sooner or later too. Some American companies have released info about producing some 5.45 rounds in the future. Mags are pretty cheap and easy to find. Cheapest I saw a few moments ago was 9.95 each for mil surp.

 

I think either will make you happy though.

 

Has anyone found a 5.45 with a threaded barrel? I have only read about the 7.62x39s having them so far.

Edited by GregM1
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I must have read some 5.45 posts wrong maybe..

 

In that case the ammo/mags are the only things in question on this...

 

I could also buy the CTD 11 pro-mags for $90 deal and just trim off the feed tabs a hair (as covered by another forum member) and use them for range..

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More and more armies are going to the NATO 5.56x45. Most Warsaw pact countries have changed and that's why we have so much surplus AK74 items right now. 20 years ago it was first line military and tightly controlled. Just think, Bulgaria, Poland, Georgia, Romania, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, all used some mix of 5.45x39, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54r. Most of them officially now use all NATO stuff. I know Germany destroyed a lot of their ammo (there was a flood of EG mil surp ammo in the 90's its gone now) Most the other surplus coming in is from these countries that made the change. So yes, surplus on these will go away at some point.

 

I can go buy at the store, off the shelf much more new, non-surplus 5.45x39 today than I can mil surp. I can buy non corr new Wolf 1000 case for $229 in town. I don't normally have to shoot corrosive ammo in my 5.45x39. OK, we know most the bargain priced ammo in all calibers are from old Warsaw pact countries and EVERY ONE could be shut down by the government. At that point with low cost competition gone, I think ALL ammo will sky rocket. (my 5.45x39 will be gone for sure at that point!)

 

Buy the .223 it works well and is available. Buy your mags from one of our supporting vendors (they will give us discounts) and surefire mags work great and are not that much to buy! All the old Warsaw pact countries who joined NATO changed to .223 (5.56x45)!

 

Lube that Avtomat Comrade!

 

Frosty

 

PS, I wonder if we will ever see Polish 5.45x39 surplus?

Edited by Fluid Power
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I could also buy the CTD 11 pro-mags for $90 deal and just trim off the feed tabs a hair (as covered by another forum member) and use them for range..

 

Vendors who put out crappy products should be punished, not rewarded. Especially when you can get milsurp for equal or lesser price.

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I can go buy at the store, off the shelf much more new, non-surplus 5.45x39 today than I can mil surp. I can buy non corr new Wolf 1000 case for $229 in town. I don't normally shoot corrosive ammo in my 5.45x39. OK, we know all bargain priced ammo in all calibers are from old Warsaw pact countries and EVERY ONE could be shut down by the government. At that point I think ALL ammo will sky rocket. (my 5.45x39 will be gone at that point!)

 

Not mine. I'm on a crash procurement program for 7N6, which, as I've mentioned elsewhere, has the additional advantage of being more lethal than the commercial stuff.

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Jim / Greg can you PM me where to find 223 milsurp mags for the 223 Saiga..

 

I'd be interested if the cost less than $12-15/pop and a forum sponsor has them.. (alot of our sponsors don't carry combloc mags or ammo) so if you PM me it wouldn't matter either way.

 

Jim D.

I was referring to the CTD deal thing only because of the post made by another member btw.

[And my Promag AK47 mag (20 rounder) works great in my x39 Saiga.]

 

Thanks Fluid.. I didn't know that about the other countries going to 5.56/223.

 

 

 

 

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I was referring to the CTD deal thing only because of the post made by another member btw.

[And my Promag AK47 mag (20 rounder) works great in my x39 Saiga.]

 

I don't doubt that some of their mags work OK. But their general quality is so poor that I think they deserve their poor reputation - and none of our dollars.

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My first choice is: 7.62x39. Aside from the fact the Russian ammo prices are coming down, it is made and readily available from several domestic ammo manufacturers. Also it is very reloadable, with brass, bullets, and even suitable cast bullet molds available. You can even use standard .308 bullets in reloads, and they will work.

 

Second choice (which is what I am now limited to by my trashed shoulder) is .223 (5.56x45mm). The M193 ball works very well, still from a 16" barrel, loosing only about 100-125 FPS from the 3250-3300 fps from a 20 inch. It is everywhere, even if only in expensive hunting rounds. Reloadable brass ammo can be had for 300/1000, and I have seen Wolf for 225/1000 locally. .223 is also very reloadable, and actually (unless you use cast bullets in the 7.62) is cheaper to reload than 7.62x39. The 62 grainers really need a 20 inch barrel to perform. I have heard good things, however, about the 75 HPs in .223, both Russian and domestic. For now, though, I'll stick with 55 grain.

 

5.45 is an excellent round, and its long, very base heavy bullet, earned its nick name poison bullet, because it wanders inside. It is not reloadable, and is not produced by US ammo makers. I think 223 has a performance edge over the 5.45x39, though, even from a 16" barrel.

 

If you can not have a 7.62x39 or don't want one, I think the 223 Saiga is the best of both worlds: Domestically produced and reloadable, AND the more reliable and robust Kalashnikov system.

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First objective is to order 1000-1500 rounds of ammo for my x39 Saiga.

 

Then go to Dicks and get my NEF Pardner Protector 12ga pump. Then call up 'Peach' and order... 022.gif

 

Then CSS for the coversion parts.. And within a week have my new setup... Then mags/ammo time..027.gif

 

I was 'maybe' going the AR route, but for the cost 012.gif I could get the Saiga, Converted, & ammo..

 

Hopefully 223 ammo (and other) prices will come down in the next month or two and we'll all benefit.

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When the doctor told me to consider playing with a "lesser" caliber for my shoulder, I though of reverting to ARs again. I just could not shake the Saiga/AK reliability. I traded the 7.62x39 yugo for a Saiga and 1000 rounds M193 brass cased ammo. Sold off the rest of the stuff to fund the conversion stuff.

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One thing, I would like to see if someone could chronograph a 5.45x39 and a .223, both out of a 16" barrel. I believe that if you did 53-55 grain and 60-62 grain you would see that they are not that different. I see Walmart has Crony's for $69 and have half a hair to do it. The AK74 is 2950 fps with a 53 gr. But what is the .223 in 55 gr with the same barrel length? I bet it's lower that the published 3200 fps.

 

You know when I used to slick Prairie Dogs with my super contender and 50 gr SP, they would smoke em. What was the Super Contender barrel? 14" or 16"?

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All of the 16" inch chrony results I have seen for the M193 from a 16"are about 3100 to 3150. 20" inch runs 3250-3300 for the same loads. Ammo oracle has lots of great information. When you drop to 14.5 inch barrels, though, the decrease is exponential, especially with M855 62 grain- it will not reliably yaw and fragment past 60-75 yards! That is not just from ammo oracle, but also from a long conversation I had three years ago at Ft. Benning AMTU armory. They like the MK 262 Mod1 77 grain OTBT from Black Hills. Performs closer to 6.8 SPC ballistic coefficient, and breaks up down to 2000 FPS

 

The 5.45 53 grain bullet is long and very base heavy and will yaw quickly at slower speeds and do massive tumble damage. The military M193 55s mainly yaw one time and fragment, as long as it it above 2600 fps. Each projectile probably wounds equally well because they use different mechanisms to cause damage. M193 causes a larger temporary cavity, the 5.45 wanders more. If it were not for dommestic made ammo and reloadability, I would take either equally.

Edited by imarangemaster
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Russian made (Wolf, Barnaul) made .55 grain 223 has a much thicker jacket and does not break up like US made M193. You can duplicate the US M193, though, by using the 55 HPs from Wolf and Barnaul. They perform much like US GI ammo.

 

Source? Can you elaborate on the performance of 55gr russian HPs? I have a thread in the ammo/reloading section talking about this also (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=49015). Basically I'm looking for the best value (terminal effect/cost) for stocking up on .223 ammo.

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When I can get .223/5.56 russian for $4.50 a box of 20; and reloadable brass PMC and other brands for $6.85 a box of 20; why in the world would I choose a 5.45 caliber that is predominantly a non-usa caliber that costs the same for the wolf/bear rounds, and the only thing cheaper (Barely) is corrosive???? Don't make no sense!!!!! I can stock up on .223, 7.62x39, and 5.45x39 for all about the same price. I think I'd rather pick a caliber that if the SHTF, or there were major importation embargoes, that I can get locally if needed. That means 1st choice is .223/5.56; 2nd choice is 7.62x39. 5.45 isn't an option for me.

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why in the world would I choose a 5.45 caliber that is predominantly a non-usa caliber that costs the same for the wolf/bear rounds, and the only thing cheaper (Barely) is corrosive????

 

Not trying to change your mind, but in my experience, corrosive = no big deal.

 

It actually helps me in that it causes me to clean the gun more often than I would normally be inclined to (which would probably be once every six months or so, as with my Ruger 10 22 and Saiga 7.62x39).

 

 

I think I'd rather pick a caliber that if the SHTF, or there were major importation embargoes, that I can get locally if needed.

 

If the SHTF, you will probably be thrown back on your own stores of ammo, with basically nowhere else to procure it. The cheapness of 5.45 means that I will have a large amount stocked up.

 

You're right about importation embargoes, which I consider to be unlikely though. A bigger concern may be dollar collapse. That's why I'm storing up just as fast as I can.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Digriz
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Jim, I understand what you're saying. And there is a bit of logic there. But consider a couple of thing.

 

1. Corrosive is not a problem. I agree. But I emphasized the word "BARELY" cheaper. Compared to non-corrosive wolf or bear, it's only about $1 a box cheaper. $1 isn't really worth the difference for mean when #2 and #3 below are considered.

 

2. In a true SHTF scenario, you might/will be required to relocate. Even minor situations like Katrina had people getting in their cars, busses, etc... and relocating. Assuming you had your own mode of transportation, how much Ammo are you going to take with you? The theory that you can stock up on ammo is a good concept, but it doesn't do you any good to have hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammo if you can't carry it with you. If I do have to relocate, chances are that I can't bring all my guns; ammo; etc... I'll hand my wife and each kid a gun. 3 each full magazines. And each one will carry 2 boxes of ammo on top of that. That is along with whatever personal possessions we each are leaving with. I'll have a pistol, and if I have a car, I will include my .223 and 12 gauge 870. I will have my 8 each 30 round magazines for the .223 and probably 1 box of valuepak 15 rounds of 00 buck.

 

3. The rest of my guns and ammo I will use prior to leaving as trading material. I will definitely exploit those who aren't prepared. Whether it's friends or neighbors. I will find what they have that I need; probably very little; and I will trade them guns and ammo for it. I can't take it all with me anyway.

 

So, when I get to wherever I'm going, I think it will be easier to find 38spl/357mag; 45acp; 9mm; .223; and 12 gauge than it will be to find 5.45 or 7.62x39; tokarev, makarov, and a host of other ammo. You are totally correct that if you can stock it up then all is good. But that's only true if you don't have to relocate.

 

Of course, a lot depends on the person's situation. If it's just you and you have to bug out, then you really only need 1 pistol and 1 rifle/shotgun. You can obviously carry quite a bit of ammo if you've driving. My standard stock is for 500 rounds of ammo for each gun I have. When I plink, I reorder when the supply gets to 400 rounds of any particular caliber. I try to keep it 500 rounds. That's enough to bug out with and sell/trade the rest to get other things I might need but can't stockpile. e.g. gasoline, perishables, food, water, etc... Now if I have any free space leftover after taking only the essentials with us, then that space will be used by more guns/ammo. It is the best trading material available.

 

Now fortunately, I don't believe in the red-dawn type scenarios. However; something similar to katrina could happen again. Staying put is one thing; having to leave is another thing. Can't really take all that ammo with you. You might need to restock and resupply at wherever you are headed. .223 is a lot easier to get than 5.45

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Russian made (Wolf, Barnaul) made .55 grain 223 has a much thicker jacket and does not break up like US made M193. You can duplicate the US M193, though, by using the 55 HPs from Wolf and Barnaul. They perform much like US GI ammo.

 

Source? Can you elaborate on the performance of 55gr russian HPs? I have a thread in the ammo/reloading section talking about this also (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=49015). Basically I'm looking for the best value (terminal effect/cost) for stocking up on .223 ammo.

 

 

It was on one of the AR15 boards a couple nyears ago. They had flattened FMJ 55s, and pieces of HPs. They also had ballistic gelatin pictures. It showed the Russian HPs (Wolf Military Classic) basically blowing up like USGI M193.

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Christcorp,

 

I agree with you. It is an extension of what I was saying about domestic ammo vs. import. Reloadability is important to me, that one reason I like 7.62x39 because you can hardcast your own 160 grainers and have serviceable loads. Unfortunately with my damagaed shoulder, I am limited to lesser, so I went with 223 and 30 carbine. (Don't underrate the USGI M1 carbine as a 100 yard and less PDW. I've killed deer at almost 100 yards with 110 grain SP.)

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1. Corrosive is not a problem. I agree. But I emphasized the word "BARELY" cheaper. Compared to non-corrosive wolf or bear, it's only about $1 a box cheaper. $1 isn't really worth the difference for mean when #2 and #3 below are considered.

I've calculated it as saving me $10 for every 100 rounds fired. That's a notable savings.

 

 

2. In a true SHTF scenario, you might/will be required to relocate. Even minor situations like Katrina had people getting in their cars, busses, etc... and relocating. Assuming you had your own mode of transportation, how much Ammo are you going to take with you? The theory that you can stock up on ammo is a good concept, but it doesn't do you any good to have hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammo if you can't carry it with you. If I do have to relocate, chances are that I can't bring all my guns; ammo; etc... I'll hand my wife and each kid a gun. 3 each full magazines. And each one will carry 2 boxes of ammo on top of that. That is along with whatever personal possessions we each are leaving with. I'll have a pistol, and if I have a car, I will include my .223 and 12 gauge 870. I will have my 8 each 30 round magazines for the .223 and probably 1 box of valuepak 15 rounds of 00 buck.

 

3. The rest of my guns and ammo I will use prior to leaving as trading material. I will definitely exploit those who aren't prepared. Whether it's friends or neighbors. I will find what they have that I need; probably very little; and I will trade them guns and ammo for it. I can't take it all with me anyway.

 

So, when I get to wherever I'm going, I think it will be easier to find 38spl/357mag; 45acp; 9mm; .223; and 12 gauge than it will be to find 5.45 or 7.62x39; tokarev, makarov, and a host of other ammo. You are totally correct that if you can stock it up then all is good. But that's only true if you don't have to relocate.

 

Of course, a lot depends on the person's situation. If it's just you and you have to bug out, then you really only need 1 pistol and 1 rifle/shotgun. You can obviously carry quite a bit of ammo if you've driving. My standard stock is for 500 rounds of ammo for each gun I have. When I plink, I reorder when the supply gets to 400 rounds of any particular caliber. I try to keep it 500 rounds. That's enough to bug out with and sell/trade the rest to get other things I might need but can't stockpile. e.g. gasoline, perishables, food, water, etc... Now if I have any free space leftover after taking only the essentials with us, then that space will be used by more guns/ammo. It is the best trading material available.

 

Now fortunately, I don't believe in the red-dawn type scenarios. However; something similar to katrina could happen again. Staying put is one thing; having to leave is another thing. Can't really take all that ammo with you. You might need to restock and resupply at wherever you are headed. .223 is a lot easier to get than 5.45

 

Some good points overall. Although, if something like Katrina happens - say, if the Wolf Creek Dam gives way before they finish reinforcing it - my ammo will still be good after the flood is over, sealed as it is in spam cans. ;-)

 

Jim

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Thank god for now we have choices.

 

I choose to own all of these fine calibers. I wish I could afford the .308 as well but for my needs I felt it was to expensive. (If I help close some big orders at work and I get good bonus money, it could change.) I can't plan on any jackpots for now (could get worst with the great One). I shoot the 5.45x39 because I love firearms and I've been a student of military weapons for years, It's one of my hobbies. I have a real interest in Russian military things and it fill's that role as does the Saiga.

 

If your only concern is stopping power go .308. If availability is the main concern go .223. If cheap shooting is the main goal go 5.45x39. ALL will Kill and ALL would serve you well in a survival scenario. Put this way, if some SOB is really trying to kill you or someone else who the hell cares if you shot him once with a .308 or twice with a .223, torn and rendered flesh is all the same pile of dung. Yes, you can save $10 per 100 with the 5.45x39 for now. What the future brings no one really knows.

 

Watch your top knot! Lefty is still on the loose!

 

Frosty

Edited by Fluid Power
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Yes, you can save $10 per 100 with the 5.45x39 for now. What the future brings no one really knows.

 

It will be moot in another year, for me at least.

 

I'd like to own one each in the other intermediate calibers as well. In fact, I do, at the moment. But I feel if I'm going to stock up heavy on one caliber, as I've decided to do, I should have more than one rifle in that caliber. Hence, one of the others will have to go. Maybe I'll pick up another one in a couple of years.

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Fluid I have a 7.62x39 I was considering the choices of 223 vs 5.45, and as you stated the 5.45 (at the moment) is cheaper.. My local wallyworld has 223 back in stock now (prices coming down a teeny bit).

 

I just don't want to have to HUNT DOWN 5.45 in 2 years and go shit.. I'm out.. wtf.. and 009.gif

 

Most shows in the Philly PA area are AR driven 010.gif and mags are plentiful and all the camo-BOYS... 021.gif

 

Just did a guys taxes for $200 so when he gets his check in 5 weeks I'll be buying something (Saiga).

 

I'm leaning toward .223 at the moment.. I too would go 308 but the rifle and ammo are 012.gif015.gif still.

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YWHC-

The Surefire mags are nice and our member vendors give us good deals. Plus 922r compliance. I like the .223's I have a lot!

 

JD,

Your worrying me now, what's that talk of it's a moot point saving $10. Something happening in a year from now that I'm missing?

 

Stick with me now!

 

Say it over and over 5.45x39, 5.45x39 good.

 

:rolleyes:

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Surplus city has 5.45 commercial ammo. Every gun show has them too. I have a 5.45 Ak (not Saiga) if you want to try it and see how you like it. (hasnt been sighted in, shoots low) But you'll get an idea of how it shoots / handles ... etc...etc...

 

Sat-Sun there is a gun show up in Monroeville Pa (close to 3hrs from our area) up to 1200 tables If thats too far there are always some show somewhere within a 2hr drive

 

As far as mags go you can find deals online. I picked up a 4 pack with pouch for $40. Bulgarian black mags. They wernt brand new obviously but they function 100%

Edited by Arik
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