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.223 vs the 5.45


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Also remember you're dealing with an AK here, the steel-cased Brown Bear and Wolf ammo works just fine in these things. A 1,000 rnd case of brown bear is like $250.

All of the 16" inch chrony results I have seen for the M193 from a 16"are about 3100 to 3150. 20" inch runs 3250-3300 for the same loads. Ammo oracle has lots of great information. When you drop to

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Hell, I thought I was doing good with 1,500 of reloadable 5.56 M193!

 

I'm going for lifetime supply. I need to figure out places to put a lot of it offsite though. Probably 5.45 is the last good cheap rifle surplus round for a long time.

Edited by Jim Digriz
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If I tried 20 'spam cans' whilst over in NJ, I'd have a bunch of boot's knockin' 005.gif005.gif005.gif005.gif005.gif

 

NJ and Cali should be on the same coast IMHO... (or in the drink)

 

Waiting on Tax check NLT the 16th of Feb (hoping the 12th).

Still going with .223 I think. I'll dig up some 223 circle 10's, and Orlites for it, and use the Promags for range.015.gif

 

Any other places too get GOOD combloc reliable type mags feel free to PM me. :)

 

2 Russian rounds in the house is enough.. x54r and x39.. Unless I get a WASR

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Jim..

No but alot of stories of guys getting jammed up for old warrant and having over 6000+ rounds of deadly assault weapon ammo laying around there house whilst being arrested.

 

I can easily see me going in NJ with my Saiga and 10 round mags getting stopped and getting HASSLED for ABIT for having an evil AK. 009.gif Can't wait to put WOOD on it just to raise more eyebrows at the NJ ranges..027.gif

 

NJ has alot of ANTI's.. They have like 4000 or so carry permits in the entire state with a population of over 2 million people. (this is fact btw..) Most are armed guards and politions. Each permit is approved by your countys head judge... 015.gif and you must qualify every 6 months I think to maintain it. And the training must be paid for by you at an approved range with (usually) a State Police person signing off on it at the range.

 

So yeah NJ SUCKS.. Glad I don't live there anymore.

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When I can get .223/5.56 russian for $4.50 a box of 20; and reloadable brass PMC and other brands for $6.85 a box of 20; why in the world would I choose a 5.45 caliber that is predominantly a non-usa caliber that costs the same for the wolf/bear rounds, and the only thing cheaper (Barely) is corrosive???? Don't make no sense!!!!! I can stock up on .223, 7.62x39, and 5.45x39 for all about the same price. I think I'd rather pick a caliber that if the SHTF, or there were major importation embargoes, that I can get locally if needed. That means 1st choice is .223/5.56; 2nd choice is 7.62x39. 5.45 isn't an option for me.

 

I disagree my oppinion is that the 5.45 is a superior choice for compared to .223 (unless you already have a bunch of .223 or wanna share ammo with another weapon system).

 

Sure you can reload .223 but that is a bunch of work especially since my .223 practically sends the casings into orbit. And if you used a weapon in armed conflict you are not going to have the luxury of collecting your casings, and lets not forget that AKs are hard on brass.

 

That FACT of the matter is you get much more effective ballistics for the cost. I can afford x3 more 5.45 than comparable .223/5.56.

 

The cheap .223 (russian) is lacking in performance to the 5.45, so to get decent .223 you need to go with m193 or better, which is MUCH MUCH more expensive. The only exception may be russian HP ammo as imarangemaster mentioned. But I would like to see alittle more information on russian HP .223 ballistics.

Edited by Krom
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BrownBear 62gr HP is at $240/1000 M193 is like $380/1000. x39 is $220/1000 and 5.45 is $150/1000

 

So at this MOMENT IN TIME.. the .223 is like my x39 as far as Russian made ammo goes price wise.

 

IF in 2 years I need 223 ammo I probably will be able to get it. And not 5.45 as 'YOU ALL' are buying all the SURPLUS up and there may be NONE LEFT in 2 years... 021.gif (jk)

 

I think another month or so and ammo prices will drop sub-$200 for all calibers again (not all).

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Jim..

No but alot of stories of guys getting jammed up for old warrant and having over 6000+ rounds of deadly assault weapon ammo laying around there house whilst being arrested.

 

I can easily see me going in NJ with my Saiga and 10 round mags getting stopped and getting HASSLED for ABIT for having an evil AK. 009.gif Can't wait to put WOOD on it just to raise more eyebrows at the NJ ranges..027.gif

 

NJ has alot of ANTI's.. They have like 4000 or so carry permits in the entire state with a population of over 2 million people. (this is fact btw..) Most are armed guards and politions. Each permit is approved by your countys head judge... 015.gif and you must qualify every 6 months I think to maintain it. And the training must be paid for by you at an approved range with (usually) a State Police person signing off on it at the range.

 

So yeah NJ SUCKS.. Glad I don't live there anymore.

 

+1

 

I'm probably unrealistic in thinking I'll actually be able to afford that much ammo in the next year. But it makes sense to me to take advantage of a good deal while it lasts, especially with a rifle in a caliber which lacks domestically produced ammo. How much was Mosin ammo going for 3 or 4 years ago? How much do you want to bet that it will never be that low again?

 

People think you are a wacko if you have a large stockpile. Of course, most people who have guns also think that when the bad guy comes, they will be effective with their guns despite not having practiced with them in years or ever.

 

Jim

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Jim .... I'm saving the 5.45 ammo for you...

 

I hear you on that.. I was sleeping with my .40 for abit (literally) and then my NEW Saiga (makes a bad companion and the steel digs into my side).021.gif

 

If someone produced 5.45 here (in volume & cheap) I'd go 5.45 for sure..

 

 

 

 

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Jim and Krom. You've both pointed out that you can get 5.45 cheaper. Jim; you said you calculated saving $10 per 100. That's $2 per box of 20 savings. Are you saying the 5.45 costs you $2.50 a box of 20??? 5.56/,223 is $4.50.

 

Krom, you said you can get 3X the 5.45 as .223. So you can get 5.45 at $1.50 a box??? I'll even use your word of "Comparable". Other than the wolf and bear, the only other 5.45 is the corrosive surplus, which is fine. But what is comparable? Can we say possibly PMC Bronze .223? That's $6.85 a box of 20. So, your 5.45 is only $2.28 a box of 20?

 

I'm not arguing that 5.45 is inexpensive. But reality is; we're talking about $1 a box between the cheapest 5.45 I can find, and russian .223 which quite good. Especially in the Saiga. The very cheapest I can find 5.45x39; even using ammoengine, is right at about $3.00 a box of 20. 1080 rounds for $159.97. So that is about $1.50 less per box than any of the wolf/bear. Ok, that's a savings I guess. And it's a good caliber. But the question was started basically by someone wanted to choose which way to go. I wouldn't say that because ammo is $1.50 a box cheaper, and it's corrosive which means you have to clean your gun more thoroughly. (Let's not rationalize if that's good or bad. It's just a statement of fact). Then, throw in the fact that while 5.45x39 might becoming more popular and easier to find; it definitely isn't as available locally as 7.62x39, and definitely no where near the availability of .223/5.56.

 

So, whether or not it's a good cartridge for a person, I think depends. If you've already got a .223 and a 7.62x39, then sure; get a 5.45x39. If it's you 1st black rifle, or similar defense/survival rifle caliber, then I would start off with a .223. If later you want another round, I would go for the 7.62x39. Then if you wanted a 3rd, get the 5.45x39. But that's just my opinion. There are some people that want to hunt with such a rifle. In that case, the 7.62x39 is by far the better rifle. It's a 30 caliber with basically the same ballistics as a 30-30 winchester. The .223 and 5.45x39 is illegal to hunt large game in many states. Most limit to .23" and up. Against people, all 3 rounds work fine. To try and debate ballistics and such when it's going to be used defensively, is moot. All 3 are effective. And this isn't die-hard, lethal weapon, rambo, red-dawn, etc... You're not going to be sniper shooting at 400 yards. I doubt you'd be 100 yards. More than likely under 50 yards.

 

Anyway, the cheapest I found for the 5.45 is right at $3 for 20. Krom, if you can tell me where you're getting it at $1.50 - $2.25 a box, I'd be really interested.

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Since I was the OP on this thread.

 

I was looking for 223 vs 5.45 accessorries (mags) and ammo arguments (not realated to ballistics and shit)

 

Can I get .223 Orlites for under $15?? Can I get cheap 5.45 mags (ex. circle 10's for $12-15)??

 

Any deals.. Any hidden things under the bbl SLEEVE?? Do I need a bullet guide on the 5.45 or not??

 

They all KILL (when needed) so thats a non-issue. Am I shooting at WALLs and TREES and CARS... um NO..

 

I have an x39 that will do the TREE/WALL/CAR/PEOPLE damage..

 

I just got bitten by the BUG and want another Saiga RIFLE...

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Jim and Krom. You've both pointed out that you can get 5.45 cheaper. Jim; you said you calculated saving $10 per 100. That's $2 per box of 20 savings. Are you saying the 5.45 costs you $2.50 a box of 20??? 5.56/,223 is $4.50.

 

The inexpensive corrosive stuff comes in cans of 1080. Commercial, non-corrosive 5.45 runs about 24 cents a round minimum; the corrosive stuff slightly less than 14 cents per round at AIMSurplus. 100 rounds at 24 cents per round = $24; 100 rounds at 14 cents per round = $14. Thus, a $10 saving per 100 rounds.

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Hell, I thought I was doing good with 1,500 of reloadable 5.56 M193!

 

I'm going for lifetime supply. I need to figure out places to put a lot of it offsite though. Probably 5.45 is the last good cheap rifle surplus round for a long time.

 

 

you can keep a few cans at my house. :smoke::lolol:

 

if i get some extra cash, i might just buy some cans of 5.45 just to store for when supplies get low elsewheres and prices go up to match other calibers.

 

 

to YWHIC, I havent heard of any threads under the FSB on either caliber. Not all 5.45 Saigas require a bullet guide. From what I have heard, most do not. I see poly mags in 5.45 as cheap as 9.95 each and Imarangemaster listed the best deals on 223 mags.

 

I went with 223 for my first Saiga. I picked it because the 5.45 wasn't available at the time. I would have probably went with the .223 anyways since long term ammo availability is more probable. I am now working on the second which I am choosing the 7.62x39. I have bought most of my conversion parts already. Just waiting on the tax return to get the rifle. I think if I ever get a third Saiga, I will go for a 12guage.

Edited by GregM1
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Jim and Krom. You've both pointed out that you can get 5.45 cheaper. Jim; you said you calculated saving $10 per 100. That's $2 per box of 20 savings. Are you saying the 5.45 costs you $2.50 a box of 20??? 5.56/,223 is $4.50.

 

Krom, you said you can get 3X the 5.45 as .223. So you can get 5.45 at $1.50 a box??? I'll even use your word of "Comparable". Other than the wolf and bear, the only other 5.45 is the corrosive surplus, which is fine. But what is comparable? Can we say possibly PMC Bronze .223? That's $6.85 a box of 20. So, your 5.45 is only $2.28 a box of 20?

 

More like 2.5x more 5.45 than .223 ($380/$150) and that is not including the extra 80rnds a case. I'm just saying, sure it does not seem like alot of money per box (surplus 5.45 comes in packs of 30 btw) but if you want to have a decent ammount of ammo saved just in case; the 5.45 isn't just 'allitle' cheaper, it's WAY cheaper 2.5+times to be exact.

 

I agree that having a .223/5.56 AK is a great choice because it uses the same caliber as MIL/LEO and other American/Nato weapon systems. But it is just not as cost effective as a 5.45.

 

5.45's magazines and such are cheaper and easier to find, and conversion is also easier. In the end it is a personal chioce and both are good chioces and I just felt like Chistcorp was not giving the 5.45 enough credit.

Edited by Krom
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223 2.5x 5.45? Yes, Brass cased reloadable 223 runs $350+/1000 but that is comparing apples to oranges. I am seeing Wolf and brown bear steel cased for $225-250/1000. Still more expensive, but not as bad as brass...

 

 

Sure, but I'd want to see some more conclusive evidence or some personal testing before I'll rely on any russian .223 for defensive purposes. I hear what your saying about .223 russian HPs, however no offense I need more than one person's account online before I'd stake my life on it, and I know that surplus 5.45 will get the job done. So until the case can be made that .223 russian HPs are in fact an effect defensive round I will stick to my opinion that the 5.45 offers a much better value. And if some one can reasonably prove that russian .223 HPs are gtg balistically then it is a toss up between the two each having it's own pros and cons.

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If I'm going to use my .223 for self defense (Or 7.62x39 or 5.45x39); then I'm definitely using Soft Points. These aren't pistol rounds doing 900-1300 fps. These are rifle rounds doing 3000+ fps. I want the penetration of FMJ without over penetration. And I want the expansion of the HP without it shredding to pieces. If soft points can take down deer in 1 shot, and humans are deer size, the Soft Point is what I want.

 

In the ultimate red-dawn type of scenario, I'll use the FMJ I have on hand. But if I'm going to use my rifle in the mode where I'm not spitting out 100+ rounds at people; then the soft point is what I'll use. I have 2 saiga 10 round magazines with PSP Fiocchi rounds in them. Pick them up at sports authority in the mall on sale for $8 a box of 20. I keep 3-4 boxes.

 

For plinking, the $4.50 silver or brown bear works just fine for me.

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Actually, I agree about the soft points. I have one magazine left of Silver Bear .223 62 grain soft points left that I plan on putting in the Saiga for the home defense role. A few years ago with my M4gery I had, I shot wet pack paper and it mushroomed and broke up, and blew the shit out of the wet pack! I would expect they perform much like the Winchester 223 Soft points.

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Snow update..

 

I may go with 5.45 after all said and done, as to spend $150 for the IW AKM woodset and hardware on a $320 rifle.. It better damn-well be a an AK47/74 variety and NOT 223. Lol021.gif

 

Came across somewhere 1080 rounds of 5.45 for less than $150.. Can't remember where...

 

Also found a 7.62x39 for $299 NIB from a non-board dealer. Just an FYI note. Great to see prices dropping..

 

 

 

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After this winter I'm planning to do a bunch of ballistics testing of both calibers at the gun club. We have huge piles of tractor type printer paper and I'm saving up a bunch of large coffee cans, one gallon water bottles and so forth all to use for bullet stops to test bullet performance. I love shooting stuff and I'll take photos. I see Walmart has a Crony Chronograph for $69! I want to check the performance of the shorter barrels also. As usual I'll post here the results. Going to 7 below zero tonight so this isn't happening anytime soon.

 

The other thing, might try to shoot some marmots this summer with the 5.45x39 to see how they do. I should be out shooting coyotes in this cold weather but I can't get my self to do it, I've shoot many yotes in the past but at my age I care more for my dog than just about anything else and he looks to much like a black coyote!

 

:cryss:

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After this winter I'm planning to do a bunch of ballistics testing of both calibers at the gun club. We have huge piles of tractor type printer paper and I'm saving up a bunch of large coffee cans, one gallon water bottles and so forth all to use for bullet stops to test bullet performance. I love shooting stuff and I'll take photos. I see Walmart has a Crony Chronograph for $69! I want to check the performance of the shorter barrels also. As usual I'll post here the results. Going to 7 below zero tonight so this isn't happening anytime soon.

 

The other thing, might try to shoot some marmots this summer with the 5.45x39 to see how they do. I should be out shooting coyotes in this cold weather but I can't get my self to do it, I've shoot many yotes in the past but at my age I care more for my dog than just about anything else and he looks to much like a black coyote!

 

:cryss:

 

I look forward to seeing your results.

 

There's a guy over at theakforum.net who has posted numerous threads and pics of his results of hunting deer with 7N6. The results are pretty impressive. (Unfortunately, that forum has been down for a week...hopefully it is not now defunct).

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if you are buying the steel cased commercial it is the same price more or less. When the surplus is gone, the 5.45 commerical will be the only game in towna nd will be more expensive than .223 which has a huge established following. .223 is also the better performer.

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if you are buying the steel cased commercial it is the same price more or less. When the surplus is gone, the 5.45 commerical will be the only game in towna nd will be more expensive than .223 which has a huge established following.

 

At that point, you can switch to .223. By then, you will have saved hundreds or even thousands of dollars...enough to buy multiple Saiga .223s.

 

(I actually have both, but have been tempted lately to sell the .223 for a PSL).

Edited by Jim Digriz
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I have an Arsenal SLR-105 in 5.45 that I use in 3-gun matches where the range is limited to less than 300 yds and the rifle/ caliber combination is superb. I purchased the SLR-105 right after the Assault Rifle Ban was lifted and have used a few thousand Wolf, Brown Bear, Golden Tiger and various surplus rounds through it with virtually no problems. The 5.45 can do most of what the .223/ 5.56 can do ballistically speaking and depending how you crunch the numbers, perhaps better. I do believe the 5.45 round has it's accuracy limits to about 350+ yards though as the groups will open up quite a bit. Russia is firmly entrenched with the 5.45 round and will continue to produce it and the AK-74 series rifles for some time. If you want to argue about 5.45 vs 5.56 terminal ballistics here you go.

 

5.45X39

 

AK-74%20545x39.jpg

 

5.56X45 M193

 

M193.jpg

 

5.56X45 M855

 

M855.jpg

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Russia is firmly entrenched with the 5.45 round and will continue to produce it and the AK-74 series rifles for some time.

 

If Russia continues to use the round - which they do, obviously - why are they surplussing huge amounts of ammo? Is it because they've upgraded to a superior version of the round? But even then you'd think they would hold their stocks of 7N6 for inexpensive training purposes.

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