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fastlanedude

Retaining plate...e clips...hitch pins...spring?

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I received my G2 Tapco FCG and did my pistol grip conversion. I installed the pins and placed the hitch pins (provided by dingzag)to retain the FCG pins in place. I am wondering how secure this is. What is the most reliable and practical way to retain the FCG pins from never coming out inadvertly?

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Might want to note that on the 308, the top lip of the forward attachment point of the Tapco retaining plate has to be trimmed to clear part of the receiver.

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A easy slight mod to the original spring works GREAT! No reason to buy a thing! I guarantee!

 

Piece of cake. One of the most easy things to do during a standard conversion.

 

:super:

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i like the e clips on some of my other past ak builds i have found the spring will come off of the front axis pin maybe i had too large of a spring i dont know. i have yet to have any problems with the e clips they just work better for me.

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I have never seen an e-Clip installation that did not fail, sooner or later. Go with thew retainer plate or the original retainer.

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I've read that converting is a lot easier or more secure using a retaining plate. Is there a difference in it's use/helpfulness in an S12 conversion as opposed to a non-shotgun Saiga?

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I have never seen an e-Clip installation that did not fail, sooner or later. Go with thew retainer plate or the original retainer.

 

How did the e-clips fail? Just curious, as I've got clips on one AK and would rather not suffer malfunctions as a result of them.

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I have used E-clips... multiple THOUSANDS of rounds... never a problem... is there a possibility they will come off SOMEDAY? Sure... theres a possibility of anything... at SOME Point...

 

 

:smoke:

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Shepard's crook, just the way Michael intended.

 

Yeah, I don't get why people want to "upgrade" to the plate. Every Tromix is shipped with the shepard's crook.

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if an e style clip is good enought for my streetbike sprocket going more than 150 mph im sure its fine on the saiga. i too have shot many many rounds with out failure maybe the wrong size e clips were used in the guns that failed.

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Shepard's crook, just the way Michael intended.

 

Yeah, I don't get why people want to "upgrade" to the plate. Every Tromix is shipped with the shepard's crook.

And they work, I find it a matter of preference as I believe its easier to strip/reassemble the FCG with a plate.

 

Do you really need to on a kalashnikov based platform? No. Could i do it with a more difficult FCG? Yes I would occasionaly pull the pins from my lower reciever on my M-16A2 while in Iraq to get everything that much cleaner.

 

I guess the same part of me that learned to meticulously clean my firearms then makes me want to now, and enjoys the convinience even if its not much harder with a sheperds crook. Cleaning to that level isn't needed for the weapon to function, But i do love a clean gun.

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If going the e-clip route just keep a few things in mind....

 

1- use 2 on each pin. 2 will fit in there & it's tight, so there is no wiggle room to stress the steel, or allow them to work off.

 

2- If you have e-clips, you need needle nose pliers & small screwdrivers to work on your gun. this is BAD if you are in the field.

 

3- if you drop them in the grass, you will NEVER find them.

 

I really do feel the only tools one should NEED to fix their gun should be in the cleaning kit in the stock, or bullets / casing rims in the mag.

 

 

For these reasons, I do like the idea of a crook or plate.

That being said, I'm still rocking the e-clips.

I keep doing other stuff to the gun. When I place my next order from CSS, I'll be getting a couple of plates. One for the gun I'm being paid to build, 1 for me.

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If going the e-clip route just keep a few things in mind....

 

1- use 2 on each pin. 2 will fit in there & it's tight, so there is no wiggle room to stress the steel, or allow them to work off.

 

2- If you have e-clips, you need needle nose pliers & small screwdrivers to work on your gun. this is BAD if you are in the field.

 

3- if you drop them in the grass, you will NEVER find them.

 

I really do feel the only tools one should NEED to fix their gun should be in the cleaning kit in the stock, or bullets / casing rims in the mag.

 

 

For these reasons, I do like the idea of a crook or plate.

That being said, I'm still rocking the e-clips.

I keep doing other stuff to the gun. When I place my next order from CSS, I'll be getting a couple of plates. One for the gun I'm being paid to build, 1 for me.

 

 

Good points all round. I only used e-clips because they were available and the rifle I was working on had a really jacked up sheperd's crook. If I ever replace them I'll probably get a plate.

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i would think you would be able to push the e clips off and on with a knife in a pinch. i havent tried so i dont know but y not right. it would suck to loose one in the grass though

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If you use e-clips they can be had for $1.60 for a bag of 100, plus postage, from hardware outfits on the internet. They are for a 3/16" shaft, are .025" thick, carbon steel.

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I've used: the original spring, a shepard's crock, and the Tapco plate. The shepard's crook is easy, I like to trim the short leg off a bit. The Tapco plate I used needed to be trimmed a bit. The one time I used the original spring, I attached it around the safety; I probably won't use one again, since it is kind of a kludgy hack.

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This is a drawing I created that shows how I've modified all my original pin retainer springs that are in daily use in all my Saiga conversions. I first tried the "E" clips and felt it was not tight enough. So I came up this. All I can say this works GREAT!

 

good luck

post-11604-12690039830173_thumb.jpg

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And they work, I find it a matter of preference as I believe its easier to strip/reassemble the FCG with a plate.

 

 

There's a bit of a knack to it, but once you get it it's just as fast as anything else.

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with the plate's functionality though. The e-clips on the other hand I cannot recommend.

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I personally don't like fiddling with the E clips because they are so small, making them a PITA to install and to remove, compared to the much easier shepherd's crook, and even easier plate. I prefer the plate over the crook because it's big, easy to manipulate and R&R. It also does not have the same tendency to bend and get all messed up like the crook can. The Tapco shepherd's crook (the one with the curved shape, that comes with the Tromix/Tapco FCG) works great with the AK and Saiga rifles, but with the S-12 it doesn't really want to fit under the rail and also the side scope rail rivet gets in the way, making it easy to bend and ruin during installation. It also is too easy to scratch the inside of the receiver installing it. For that reason I prefer to use the simple flat plate on the S-12 especially, it installs easily from above and is held secure by the selector lever. Hitch pins and E clips I've got no use for in an AK. If I don't have a plate then I'd rather go with the same thing used for years in AKs, the standard shepherd's crook. There are also a number of ways to cut and rebend the factory Saiga retaining spring to work just great. I've even used a very simple straight piece cut from this spring and it worked fine for a long time, til I finally took it out and replaced it with a plate. A straight spring wire wedged under the trigger pin from the front, then sprung into place over the top of the hammer pin, and trapped under the rail there, makes a simple effective retainer for the converted S-12. The L shaped Tapco wire with the loop on each end, and at the bend, or a factory spring bent like this will also work great with a little tuning.

 

Bottom line, there are lots of ways to do it using only a simple spring wire, just like Kalashnikov designed the system to work. The plate costs just a little more, but is worth it in my opinion because it won't ever bend under normal use, and is very easy to use again and again.

 

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I use e clips on my s-12's w/o any problems. Cheap easy to replace, use a hemostat and pen knife to install pretty easy. I've also cut a few coils off the original crook and installed on trigger pin forward to hammer. works slick on my .223 and s-12's.

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Plate. It's just too easy. The crook isn't bad, but the plate just drops in place and that's it.

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I've tried everything listed except the E clips. I personally prefr the plate. It's easier for me to put into place without any tools. All my AKs use them.

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Posters on other AK forums have said the pins rotate in the plates, whereas they don't rotate with the standard shepard's crook. Can anyone verify this?

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I can't verify it, but I don't see how a rotating pin would cause a problem. The pins are round at every point, even inside the shoulders, they are perfectly round, so no matter where it rotates, it doesn't actually move laterally anywhere.

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The e-clips will fail, sooner or later, go with the plate!

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I agree on springs to stop rotation. You want the hammer and sear to rotate on the pins, as there is a much larger bearing area there. You do not want the axis pins rotating in the receiver, as there is little bearing area there, and wear will show it's ugly head much sooner. Also, the pins have different diameters on either side, so any pin wear at the receiver will be asymmetric, not a good thing!

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I agree on springs to stop rotation. You want the hammer and sear to rotate on the pins, as there is a much larger bearing area there. You do not want the axis pins rotating in the receiver, as there is little bearing area there, and wear will show it's ugly head much sooner. Also, the pins have different diameters on either side, so any pin wear at the receiver will be asymmetric, not a good thing!

 

 

On a semi-auto steel receiver gun I can't see how pin rotation could really be a problem, if we were talking about a full auto M16 with an aluminum receiver, maybe. IMHO

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