Barrel cutting and permanent attachment for non SBS

[vinnivanhood 17]

OK here's what I think I know-

Over 18" total barrel length min. I plan on 18.25-18.5 to be safe with permanently attached muzzle device

(Chaos Warthog and barrel nut), and the barrel must be removed to cut legally(so it wont be SBS intermittently).

I hopefully wont need to mess with gas ports since I'm not significantly reducing barrel length(about 3").

 

So, my questions are-

Can I cut the barrel with a cutting disc and file it smooth since the end wont be visible anyway?

Will the Warthog and nut fit over the unthreaded end, will it be sloppy loose or will I need to slim the barrel down?

Or should I rent a thread cutting tool(&where?) and cut new threads prior to permanently attaching?

What are my options for a solid permanently attachment?

 

I'd really rather do it myself, but I want a rock solid finished product, and if I just cant accomplish that myself

then I wont try. I want to know I could drive my Warthog into a brick skull without worrying if it'll budge!

[vitamink 90]

i was actually wondering the same thing... i'm subscribing for the answer

[dannyfantasy2000 68]

i was actually wondering the same thing... i'm subscribing for the answer

 

+1, took the words out of my mouth. I've been giving this a lot of thought myself. If you didn't already know, there are 3 methods that the ATF considers legal as far as what is permanently attached. Welding halfway around the device, silver soldering, and blind pinning then welding. An alternative to Vinnivanhood's idea to slim down the barrel instead of threading it I was thinking of was to file the threads off the inside of the muzzle brake. Anybody ever tried this?

[VanKiller 322]

Your methods can be made to work, but , it usually does not give good results.

 

I've cut quite a few barrels down to 18 inch overall and a lot of muzzle devices will need the ports opened. Some guns at stock length will quit ejecting properly with a Warthog or Sharkbrake threaded on. I would suggest buying the muzzle device first and trying it at stock length.

 

In the long run you are much better off to have the barrel work done properly on a lathe, by someone who will make sure the weapon functions properly when finished. It's hard to beat threaded and pinned. Over heating/welding can cause the chrome inside the bore to peel or the barrel itself to warp.

 

I've replaced more than one barrel screwed up this way. Of course they never post pics of these self inflicted "Wounds" on the forum.......................

 

.........................Good luck, whichever way you decide to go,......Tom (VK)

 

 

[selph arms llc 14]

[vinnivanhood 17]

Well I have a 3 gas port gun and it cycles heavy or light loads well with my Warthog or

Wave brake or nothing at all with the factory gas adjuster. I only have trouble with the

in between stuff like #4 high brass on 1 its over-gassed on 2 under so I just stick with

the super cheap federals or 3"00 federal premiums and never miss a beat with those. I'm

still waiting for someone to come out with a self regulating gas adjuster it doesn't seem

as though it would be that difficult, but if shortening caused problems I assume opening

the ports slightly would be the fix. But it does sound like threaded and pinned is definitely

what I want to do, I would however still like to figure out how to do it myself, I'm still

not sure, but thanks guys! I sure wish one of ya was closer to the Fort!

[Dirt Diver 0]

Hold on, are you all saying that the barrel has to be removed for a cut/re-thread. Isn't the barrel rivited to the reciever. Sounds like a lot of work and expense. I thought that re-threading only required a tool on the end that you would rotate to cut the threads. Or is the lathe method just preferred.

 

I am in the process of putting together everything to fully mod my S12 and GunKote it.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Dirt Diver

[vinnivanhood 17]

Hold on, are you all saying that the barrel has to be removed for a cut/re-thread.

If your cutting it shorter then 18" you have to remove it or else its an SBS until you permanently attach a muzzle device that brings it back into legal range which would require a SBS tax stamp which I cant even get here in Indiana no SBS hell. If the BATF came in while you were in the middle of your project youd be screwed!

[jekbrown 14]

If your cutting it shorter then 18" you have to remove it or else its an SBS until you permanently attach a muzzle device that brings it back into legal range which would require a SBS tax stamp which I cant even get here in Indiana no SBS hell. If the BATF came in while you were in the middle of your project youd be screwed!

 

That was my question. I live in a state with a total SBS ban (WA)...so I really don't want to risk big brother drylubing me. That said, can a 'smith legally cut a bbl down / perma install a muzzle attachment without removing the bbl?

[selph arms llc 14]

PM sent

[vinnivanhood 17]

The barrel threads are metric 22 x .75 one of the vendors were going to loan out a cutter

but I dont know what happened with that?

[VanKiller 322]

If your cutting it shorter then 18" you have to remove it or else its an SBS until you permanently attach a muzzle device that brings it back into legal range which would require a SBS tax stamp which I cant even get here in Indiana no SBS hell. If the BATF came in while you were in the middle of your project youd be screwed!

 

That was my question. I live in a state with a total SBS ban (WA)...so I really don't want to risk big brother drylubing me. That said, can a 'smith legally cut a bbl down / perma install a muzzle attachment without removing the bbl?

 

 

The gunsmith needs to have the proper lisc to mfg class 3 / NFA items.

[Gunfixr 76]

Yes, to be legal, you must remove the barrel, do the work, and then reinstall. If something should happen in between cutting the barrel off and getting the muzzle attachemnt permanently on, then you can be screwed. It's up to your ability to convince the feds you were in the process of making something that would be legal in the end. The facts would be that you were illegal when they walked in, so it's entirely up to them. They'd have an open and shut case.

For a gunsmith to do it legally, they'd have to do the same thing, unless they're a properly licensed SOT Manufacturer.

It is preferable to do the work in a lathe, so that the threads are square to the bore, and concentric. Often, on the S12s, the bore is not centered in the stock, and in a lathe, this can be accounted for. I usually prefer the blind pins also, either with or without barrel threading. If I don't thread the barrel, I'll bore the device to be a tight fit, and blind pin, with multiple pins. If the barrel OD is not concentric to the bore, I skim it true first. I use threaded pins, bottomed out tightly, and then welded flush, either 2, 3, or 4 pins.

Even if you remove only 2 or 3 inches from the barrel bore length from a 19" barrel, it will require gas port mods to work with the lighter shells.

 

I'm working on a self-regulating plug, I have a prototype.

[kresk 10,063]

The barrel threads are metric 22 x .75 one of the vendors were going to loan out a cutter

but I don't know what happened with that?

Dinzag was renting them out, I think. Yeah--found it: http://ww10.aitsafe.com/cf/add.cfm?userid=C3255014&product=TK227512++22x0.75RH+Kit+Rental&price=100.00&return=www.dinzagarms.com/tools/tools.html

[selph arms llc 14]

I have a class 3 licenses and offer gunsmithing services if you need some help, and have all the proper tools to accomplish pretty much everything you could dream up.

[vinnivanhood 17]

I'm working on a self-regulating plug, I have a prototype.

Music to my ears! I definitely gotta get one of those!

 

It is preferable to do the work in a lathe, so that the threads are square to the bore, and concentric. Often, on the S12s, the bore is not centered in the stock, and in a lathe, this can be accounted for. I usually prefer the blind pins also, either with or without barrel threading. If I don't thread the barrel, I'll bore the device to be a tight fit, and blind pin, with multiple pins. If the barrel OD is not concentric to the bore, I skim it true first. I use threaded pins, bottomed out tightly, and then welded flush, either 2, 3, or 4 pins.

Even if you remove only 2 or 3 inches from the barrel bore length from a 19" barrel, it will require gas port mods to work with the lighter shells.

Sounds like I'm gonna have to have someone else do the work for me, so I guess It'll have to wait.

[vinnivanhood 17]

Well I sent her out to Vankiller today, I prefer to do all I can myself

but I trust she'll be in able hands.

Gonna be rough being without my 12 but It'll give my SGL21 a chance to get some attention.

I'll post some before and afters when I get er back.

[GaryA 0]

My gunsmith is making a custom choked compensator for my Saiga and will be cutting down the barrel and will be permanently attaching it.

 

One thing to keep in mind that it's a chrome lined barrel so it's best to cut it from the inside out so as not to chip it. He will then TIG weld it on.

 

I'm hoping that by adding an integral modified choke that it provide enough back pressure to not have to open the gas ports.

 

I'll post results when I get it to the range.

[vitamink 90]

i wish i had an sgl 21

[vinnivanhood 17]

Update : still waiting on my S12 but got the invoice and sent payment so hopefully very soon, been a long summer with no shotgun! Cant wait to see how it turned out, Im pretty nervous about it really Vankiller, I didnt hear if you had to open the gas ports any but I was really sure you were gonna have to at least a hair. Fire one off for me while shes still there.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

3 months so far? It could take 6 months and still be considered more than acceptable as far as most reputable builders go.

 

I shortened and rethreaded mine to 18 3/16" from the breach. It took me about 6 hours and it looks cleaner than factory.

I don't have a press or a lathe.

[billyjoebob 10]

3 months so far? It could take 6 months and still be considered more than acceptable as far as most reputable builders go.

 

I shortened and rethreaded mine to 18 3/16" from the breach. It took me about 6 hours and it looks cleaner than factory.

I don't have a press or a lathe.

 

Can you give us a step-by-step? Tools used, problems encountered, etc?

 

Also, did you have to open your ports?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I know this thread is not about SBS, excuse me, but what if a person already has their Form 4 for an SBS? Can't they then cut the barrel shorter than 18 if they want, without having to have a licensed class 3 gunsmith do the work for them? I'm aware that it must be engraved or stamped, but what about the actual work?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

3 months so far? It could take 6 months and still be considered more than acceptable as far as most reputable builders go.

 

I shortened and rethreaded mine to 18 3/16" from the breach. It took me about 6 hours and it looks cleaner than factory.

I don't have a press or a lathe.

 

Can you give us a step-by-step? Tools used, problems encountered, etc?

 

Also, did you have to open your ports?

 

Well.... I kinda just jumped in with both feet after staring at the muzzle and taking measurements to see how badly out of alignment the original threads were. Mine were only slightly wacked and I knew that I could run the die loose and manipulate it so the new threads would be right. Then, I could 'tighten' the die to finish the threads. I am going to do another and will take some pics as I go. If you do not have a really good 'eye' for round, straight, and level. Don't try it without the thread alignment tool. I have a really good eye and it makes up for my lack of tools and schooling on certain things. I am very talented with a file as well.

 

I had already ported my S12 and the 1" of barrel didn't affect reliability with Winchester Universal, so I would assume it will work fine with nearly any other ammo. It makes a notably bigger difference that one might think it would, as far as how long the barrel looks now. It was worth it to me, others, maybe not so much.

 

In hindsight, I would have bought the thread alignment tool had I known one existed for this application, lol. You might pull it off with a little patience and average hand skills. I'll post a few pics of the finished product later. I am getting one of my Cadillacs ready for paint today, so it may be later tonight.

 

I used:

micrometer

pencil

paper

tape

die from CSS

CLP

hacksaw

bench grinder

Dremel

hobby files

400 grit sandpaper

.... and lots of measuring and staring, lol!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I know this thread is not about SBS, excuse me, but what if a person already has their Form 4 for an SBS? Can't they then cut the barrel shorter than 18 if they want, without having to have a licensed class 3 gunsmith do the work for them? I'm aware that it must be engraved or stamped, but what about the actual work?

 

Hi Cobra,

Did you mean you have a Form 1? Form 4 is for transfer of a currently 'NFA' weapon or device, not permission to manufacture an NFA weapon. A weapon on a Form 4 should already have the engraving on it from the original SBS manufacturer. I will be doing a SBS in the future. As long as you already have the weapon engraved with Form 1 approved and in hand, it is already a SBS in the eyes of the ATF, so you could do it yourself. That is my understanding of it, at least.

 

I have seen individuals get a Form 1 for the SLR-107UR and cut/crown the barrel themselves. I would assume it would be the same for an SBS as long as the proper steps/procedures have been taken to comply with ATF specs.

 

evl....

Edited July 18, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[Azrial 1,091]

I have never talked to an ATF Agent that thought that this was a problem, just people from Gun boards.

[RGVBadBoy 9]

Selph Arms,

 

PM'd you... I want this done aswell.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[vinnivanhood 17]

Still waiting, wish I had the money to have Vankiller put in one of his new LRBHO especially while its already there but Im always broke at the worst time!

[RGVBadBoy 9]

I spoke to a gentleman at Selph Arms LLC, looks like they're my guys, I'll be sending them my Saiga once I get all my parts in, they'll be doing my recoil spring, barrel cutting, porting and brake mounting amongst testing everything out for me.... I'll post pics of their finished product once I get it back.

 

Mike

Edited July 23, 2010 by RGVBadBoy

[vinnivanhood 17]

Just got the email that its shipping out tomorrow - pics to follow!

 

then got a PM it got delayed a day , then got an email it missed the truck, but hopefully it did ship today , I got the tracking so Ill be watching it intently!!!

Edited July 29, 2010 by vinnivanhood