Promag 12 Round Drum

[stiletto raggio 20]

I really don't want it to get back on "Mike is so mean for "overcharging" us for so long" bit. ProMag does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, Mike does. ProMag has a track record of D-grade products; everything Mike makes is a solid A. Call me prejudiced, but any reasonable and educated person is going to be extremely skeptical of anything with a ProMag name on it. Of course Mike has a vested interest here; so does every business member. That doesn't mean he is being irrational to make what are most likely accurate predictions about the quality of a competitor's product.

 

I have a great deal of respect for both Mike and Cobra. Both of you guys have been real innovators and value-added members of this TEAM. I hope we can all get past this soon.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

I really don't want it to get back on "Mike is so mean for "overcharging" us for so long" bit. ProMag does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, Mike does. ProMag has a track record of D-grade products; everything Mike makes is a solid A. Call me prejudiced, but any reasonable and educated person is going to be extremely skeptical of anything with a ProMag name on it. Of course Mike has a vested interest here; so does every business member. That doesn't mean he is being irrational to make what are most likely accurate predictions about the quality of a competitor's product.

 

I have a great deal of respect for both Mike and Cobra. Both of you guys have been real innovators and value-added members of this TEAM. I hope we can all get past this soon.

 

Sorry if my comments come off as an overcharging complaint. They most certainly are not.

 

What I'm just trying to do is a reality check is all.

 

Mike made an awesome product, no doubt. What's cooler than a big ass magazine for a semi auto twelve gauge? Not a whole lot. So he came up with a good design in CAD. Took it to some manufacturer who makes sturdy plastic products and had them tool up for him. The MD 20 is great and lots of people here have them and love them. Torture tests are impressive. Very impressive.

 

But once again, let's just be honest. The MD20's main selling point was not its quality - it was its exclusivity. It was the only drum around. There was no other manufacturer in sight. That's the main reason it was $260. Not the fact that you can run it over with a car.

 

Say ProMag was around first with a $100 drum. Say it was spotty on quality. One guy's works great. One guy's doesn't. Do you really think someone would have tried to make a similar mag and try selling it at triple the price, even if it was vastly superior quality? I doubt it. Maybe at $50 more, sure. But nowhere close to triple.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Klassy Kalashnikov

[voonman 133]

No offence to mike..He has done an outstanding job bringing a quality product into the saiga market...But Klassy Kalashnikov makes a valid point

 

 

 

I really don't want it to get back on "Mike is so mean for "overcharging" us for so long" bit. ProMag does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, Mike does. ProMag has a track record of D-grade products; everything Mike makes is a solid A. Call me prejudiced, but any reasonable and educated person is going to be extremely skeptical of anything with a ProMag name on it. Of course Mike has a vested interest here; so does every business member. That doesn't mean he is being irrational to make what are most likely accurate predictions about the quality of a competitor's product.

 

I have a great deal of respect for both Mike and Cobra. Both of you guys have been real innovators and value-added members of this TEAM. I hope we can all get past this soon.

 

Sorry if my comments come off as an overcharging complaint. They most certainly are not.

 

What I'm just trying to do is a reality check is all.

 

Mike made an awesome product, no doubt. What's cooler than a big ass magazine for a semi auto twelve gauge? Not a whole lot. So he came up with a good design in CAD. Took it to some manufacturer who makes sturdy plastic products and had them tool up for him. The MD 20 is great and lots of people here have them and love them. Torture tests are impressive. Very impressive.

 

But once again, let's just be honest. The MD20's main selling point was not its quality - it was its exclusivity. It was the only drum around. There was no other manufacturer in sight. That's the main reason it was $260. Not the fact that you can run it over with a car.

 

Say ProMag was around first with a $100 drum. Say it was spotty on quality. One guy's works great. One guy's doesn't. Do you really think someone would have tried to make a similar mag and try selling it at triple the price, even if it was vastly superior quality? I doubt it. Maybe at $50 more, sure. But nowhere close to triple.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Not really. this is the tragic flaw. There is another manufacturer that managed to both cost more, and have lower quality.

 

Its sad, and flies in the face of rationality, and yet there they are...

No offence to mike..He has done an outstanding job bringing a quality product into the saiga market...But Klassy Kalashnikov makes a valid point

But once again, let's just be honest. The MD20's main selling point was not its quality - it was its exclusivity. It was the only drum around. There was no other manufacturer in sight. That's the main reason it was $260. Not the fact that you can run it over with a car.

[454496 71]

I don't own any ProMags and don't own a MD-20 drum yet (on pre-order).

 

But I know MD-20 drums are the KING of drums at any price just by reading about the degree of excellence on this forum!

 

Come on humans smell the coffee

[billyjoebob 10]

Well.... I KNOW I DO NOT need to sleep with a Thai lady boy to make sure I'm STILL not Gay.......

Even if the Thai Lady boy is smokin' hot!!! Thai lady boys are pretty much known to be gay..

(*Disclaimer... No offense to any straight Thai lady boys out there!!!)

 

If I did... Odds are I'd get packed up my backside and my throat cut...

 

I feel the same way about Pro Mag.... Even if the drum is sexy....

Every Time I Try one of their products.. I get screwed in the butt & my throat cut!!!

I know I pretty much don't want to try it again on my dime....

 

If its the real thing... I'm sure we will hear about it....

 

^^Ladyboy^^

Looks sexy... but what's it got under the hood????

 

I'm not willing to pay to check it out...

 

I have to say...that was a troubling analogy

[Juggernaut 11,054]

 

I have to say...that was a troubling analogy

 

 

YES!!!! but didn't convey/communicate my point clearly and vividly???? LOL!!!

 

I'd much rather have someone ELSE TELL me than find out the ugly truth on my dime!!!

 

Not everything is cracked up on what it APPEARS to be!!

[cb8180 2]

I know this topic is about drums, but I really believe that the true reason for the price drop is that the double-stack mags will pretty much make obsolete (other than a fun range toy) the drums as we know them. I know I'm a noob but, dammit, this is my gut feeling. Ergonomically I think we can all agree that a stick mag is better. Please don't take my post in the wrong light--I have and love my MD-20, but if a double-stack mag of equal quality becomes available it's a no-brainer for me! Maybe MD arms has recouped all of their start-up costs on the drum and is either using the price drop to expand customer base or, shit, I don't know! Excuse my ramblings.

[Apache 4]

I have an opinion on this matter ...

 

Where I'm from (Texas, LOL) we had a saying: "Dance with the one that brung ya" and it seems to me this Mike Davidson fella is the "One that brung ya". He was the guy who invested his money and figured out how to make drums that work well in the Saiga 12 and brought them to market. Now along comes Promag with a less than stellar reputation for having quality products and decides that they want a piece of the pie that Mike spent a lot of time and effort to develop and they stand to undercut his profit margin substantially. I think Mike deserves every dime he's made and it seems to me it was a great decision to drop his price to compete with Promag, which is going to cut into his profit margin even more. I also understand the original higher price on his drum because he had to recoup a huge investment and who's to say he wouldn't have dropped the price in the future anyway?

With Promag's reputation I think it won't be long before we see their used drums popping up left and right in the Classifieds ...

[cb8180 2]

I do expect some very interesting times ahead. It will be fun to watch (and participate in) these developments. America is awesome in it's ability to weed out trash.

[HOWARD COSELL 155]

I've yet to have a good experience with Promag.

Maybe this will be a decent product. We'll find out soon.

I use my S 12 for home defense and I just can't see myself trusting "Promag" for the security of my family.

 

 

 

 

I think this post touches on something very important. All new products for the Saiga, whether they are put out by our own group of talented business members, or not....they will eventually be discussed (and judged by) the members of this forum. Maybe people should try and keep in mind while doing this "judging"....not everyone buys new things for their Saigas to protect their families or property with. Not every new thing I buy for my guns has to pass the ultimate test in a life or death situation....therefore I'm not so anally critical about every new mag or product. If it works at all, and can be tweaked a little to work better.....if it's able to be bought at a good price....then I can add it to my collection and not feel bad about it. If it's a total piece of shit, but will still hold a door open while storing nice festively colored shotgun shells, visible through the sides of it's poorly designed body....then it's just another addition to my collection.

 

I have Izhmash factory 8 rd mags if I want to go into battle and risk my life with them.

 

 

Cobra, I respect your opinion and have since I've been a member of this forum.

I just want to add a couple of things to my previous post. I'll make this short as possible.

It looks like there has been a mixed bag here on peoples' experiences with Promag. Some good, some bad. I for one am one of the ones that have had a bad experience everytime, not only with their S 12 mags but with their customer service. It has happened multiple times. I have a bad taste in my mouth with this company and they have lost a customer.

 

Maybe people should try and keep in mind while doing this "judging"....not everyone buys new things for their Saigas to protect their families or property with.

 

I understand your point but there are people that do and Promag should have kept that it in mind. Now that they are coming out with a new product, scrutiny and skepticism should be expected.

 

I suppose I'm one of those overly anal people when it comes to my firearms. Every firearm, mag and accessory has been tested multiple times and will continue to be. I use them for home defense and hunting where IMO nothing is more important.

 

I hope that the new drum turns out to be a good product. Like I said in my previous post, "Maybe this will be a decent product. We'll find out soon." If it is, great! I still won't get one because of this company's past, they have lost a customer. I'm going to stick with the products that have been reliable to me and I will give my business to the companies that have earned it.

[csspecs 1,987]

You have to also remember that Mikes drum price went up during the gun ban hype. One law and all your tooling is worthless, so most makers wanted to get their equipment paid off before that. Now that seems to be out of mind and people are more willing to throw their life savings behind a project to make gun parts, we are seeing more and more products. Some will likely be great, others will go to the wall of shame.

[MikeD 541]

MIKE IS ONE OF US. Let me be clear what I mean. I don't mean that he is a foum member. I mean he is a gun guy, a hobbyist turned entrepreneur that cares about the shooting community.

 

I hope this doesn't sound of line. But don't you think it's a little, shall we say, naive, to think Mike is some saint that ought to be revered. These drums went from $260 to $100 in a matter of what, two weeks? Do you honestly think the drums would have ever gone anywhere near $100, even $200, if MD Arms remained the monopoly of drum magazines? I'm not giving the guy shit for making money. He's a guy trying to pay the bills like everyone else. But c'mon now, let's do some math. He can cut the price to almost a third and still make a good enough profit to be in business and have food on the table and gas in the truck. If it wasn't, I'm sure he'd have shut the lights off when ProMag made the announcement. He doesn't make drum mags for his health. What we witnessed was, without malice, price gouging, plain and simple. Due to monopoly. Supply and demand. Basic rules and results of free market capitalism.

 

Maybe ProMags drum will suck. Maybe it will be awesome. But in the end, one thing we all should realize is that this whole situation has benefitted all of us "little guys" - now we get to try all the drums at a realistic price, and see for ourselves which is the best product.

 

Ok, I have read your posts and I need to bring a few things to your and others attention that thinks this way. I was hoping to aviod this long ass story but it needs to be told. And it will show you where you are very wrong in thinking I've milked this for all it's worth. I will say that I am no saint, not by a long shot... And as soon as a man tells you he is you had damn well better save an eye for him... Anyone that want to know sit back for a good read. Anyone with the gouging and iI've been ripping people off remarks and such, this is for you. If you don't read it you will no doubt remain ignorant and sounding dumb when you say such.

 

I just wanted a drum. I tried to talk a few companies to build one just so I could buy it! I offered to give help in the design asking nothing in return other than the chance to purchase. At one time AGP said they was going to do it. And then said they had to step down. Too worried about politics... I bet they wish they had took me up on that offer now! I still wanted a drum. Times was looking bleak. We needed someone with balls! That someone was me!

 

I started this project in very politically scary time(Not that they are much better, but the fear of immediate bans have passed, for now). I staked everything I had on it. I let my tree service go. I have been building it for almost 8 years at that time. I was doing good with it because I believed in quality and hard work, with ethics, then the same as I do now.

 

I had to make the choice between this drum and a small 7 unit rental building I was had bought a few years earlier and was paying on. The apartment manager started keeping the rent for himself. I was 4 hour away from the place. Went good up until then. By the time I realized... there was a very large whole dug by the degenerate. I could have saved the building or presued this drum... After paying off the forclosure settlement and adding in what I had already paided on the place that was around a $50000 loss, cya, buy. A few months after the drum started shipping I paid off the mortgage settlement. I didn't file bankruptcy, but could of long before the drums started shipping. That isn't me, I pay my debts... Before someone says that was a seperate business dealing and should be included... Bullshit, I could have avoided losing the building and equity if I hadn't presued the drum instead!

 

So we are at around $50 grand just to keep it alive. At this point I am already around $30 grand into the drum project and only scratching the surface. That was spent on Cad drawings, and prototypes...

 

Now lets build some tools, right here in America! Not going to China, like I easily could of, for a fraction of the cost. I kept OUR money right here! (I can't say for sure but I am guessing Promag builds their molds overseas... Not sure but I would bet you $100 to a dounut...) My molds was WELL over $200,000. I'm not giving exact numbers, but they will all be under actual...

 

So what does that make the cost per unit for the first 1250 drums I sold (at $165 the original preorder price).

So $280,000 (big plus) divided by 1250 = $224 per drum. Well, thats a little more than I sold them for, but hey, we have our drums. Wait. No we don't. Well lets build them.

 

OK, We need support tooling like fixtures to hold parts, sonic welding horns, pneumatic screw drivers, packaging tools, packaging supplies, high dollar duplex printers to make manuals so we ONLY have to spend a dollar each for them (not including time to fold and staple). Forgot to mention a website earlier. Over another $15 grand here. That brings the first 1250 up another $12 per unit to $236 each. But finally... our drums. No? Oh yeah, we still have to manufacture our parts.

 

Well, let's see, I found the best material I could ( which easily cost twice as much as glass filled nylon used in other QUALITY parts). We need 2 different steel inserts to over mold. We need feedlips. We need springs. We need cover clips. We need screws, oh, those only come in shiny zinc plating, well lets have the zinc acid stripped off and refinished in black oxide because who the hell wants shiny ass screws in there mag? Not me. We already have to do all of our other metal parts in Black Oxide so why not. But we have to get them heat treated first after being laser cut and formed by hand in a finger brake. Because we can't afford to build any progressive dies right now, those are 10's of thousands to build... We need to pay an injection shop to run the molds and make the parts... Damn, I wish I could tell you what all of that cost.

 

But many, many, many more dollars added to the peice price and now we do finally have the drums! After a 1 1/2 years of a constant battle. EDIT TO ADD Forgot to mention that this is the end os September 2008. Yeah, about 5 weeks before Obama was elected, not that MCCain was going to be much better... And still very much in the hole on the project. All of my figures are missing alot of numbers! And I never added in not having an income for 1 1/2 years and living with my parents! Hell I still haven't made it out of my parents house to this day! Edit end...

 

So what does one do here. I just made something that people are selling on gunbroker for $300 at the lowest and up to $500 a unit. Keep in mind that the only other option right now is the Wraithmaker drum that is selling for $380 (not including the cost to get it to work). So I don't quite have a monopoly but about as close as it gets... Do I jack my price up to $400 or $500? Maybe just $300? No I take it to $230. Not exactly guoging if you ask me! Do I cut out dealers? No, I only had a few, but really all I could handle with my pressed schedle. And most the dealers I had was primarily selling on the internet, just like me... In my opinion that was sharing, because I really didn't have to do it.

 

What I am saying is ANYONE that wants to say I a was ripping people off... doesn't have a damn clue. And I do hope they get one before further embarrassing themselves infront of people that do. There is nothing at all wrong with being ignorant, it only becomes a problem when you stay that way. Belive me, I was just as ignorant as most before I started working for myself. It shines a whole new light on things.

 

Now I want you guys to read what some ass hat dealer had the nerve to send me by email. Followed by my reply back to him. I was really bitting my tounge but still put him in his place. Wait to you read this shit. This is no doubt someone that was selling very high on gunbroker! I even bent over backwards to get this guy a cancelled order for a few drums reactivated from the pre order $165 drums.

Him: I must have bought over 25 md drums between you, CSS and gunbroker. Its not right every time i get some drums you drop the price again. I am only a little guy who goes to small gun shows and sells mags. You make it hard for me to get rid of these drums when you keep droping the price. I paid probly a average of $180 x 25= $4,500 Now it would only cost me $2,500 Do you see the delema you put people like me in. If you could charge $100 now you must have been robing us all along. I would love to buy more @ $100 but i am still stuck with 4 drums @ $180. It just is not right.

thanks, Name removed

And my reply to him: name removed, I don't see your figures for how much you made off selling the 21 drums. What was your mark up on those. Back when they was easily going for $300 and more, you know, the ones I sold for $165... I don't want to hear about robbing anyone. You have no idea the money wrapped up in this project... and at a time when things was very politically scary. And if you was getting them on average for $180 then someone was breaking an agreement between me and them on the minimum sale price... And I have only dropped the price 1 time. The prices went like this... $165, 215, 230, 260, 120... The 100 point now is only temporary. Are you offering your past customers a refund because the price dropped. Hell, did you offer a refund when the gouging price (over my list price) leveled off down to my list price once supply and demand equaled out? I could have sold them for $300 plus myself, from the start... But you see my prices above. I sold them for the least when they was selling for the most.... Would YOU have done the same? With all due respect, I don't want to hear biased opinions, accusations, and judgement. Thanks again for your past business. If you want to be a part of our future sales and dealer program we would really like that and you can buy direct from us at a very sweet price point now. Also I am not judging you on your past sales, this is a capitalist market. I wanted investors to make as much money possible off our drums and I hope you did. Thanks again, MikeD

 

 

All I am getting at is some people don't have a clue. I'm trying to help you get one.

 

We can lower the price now. The project as went from the red to the blue. We have more streamlined things that reduced cost for future parts... We have got better prices on materials from buying in bigger bulk... I was also able to find a stronger material for the drum and it cost 20% less than the original. And it drops the weight of the drum by 2 ozes. The new material also molds easier and faster and with less tool wear (less repairs to molds). It was a win, win, win, win! All benifits with no sacrafice, you don't find that much. The first drums released in the new material will be the preorder drums being sold now... And many other price reducing things in the mix. And not a damn one of these price savings is sacraficing quality in anyway either. We had a progressive die built for the feedlips. The feedlips on the next drums are improved. They have a much lower coeffecience of friction (less drag)... We are about quality and continuous improvment first, not saving a dollar.

 

I made this drum as good as I could with what I had. What I had is a fraction of what promag had to throw at it. I built it FIRST because I wanted it, so it kick total ass. You have many promag examples of what happens when all you want is to make a quick buck...

 

Do you guys know I could be sitting on a beach right now? Without a damn care if I ever sold another drum. But I'm not. I dumped it all back into the company. There is a lot of other items that I want for myself, and I will sale those too. I will be selling them for great prices from the start. Because the drum has paid for them... I am going to build an empire! And with the quality I will demand... All I can say is watch out!

 

And last, it was said I would have never have lowered the price if ProMag had not made a drum... Not true. I have been wanting to lower it for awhile now. My sales was becoming very slow. I figured my next surge would be from the double stacks. The only reason I didn't lower them was out of customer loyalty. I didn't want to go quite as low as I did though, but so be it. I am glad ProMag is releasing a drum. It has already been the biggest help I have had since the Wraithmaker guys rooted me along. Ironic isn't it? That your competiton is your biggest supporter without even knowing it! This new price point is a rebirth and is going to move things along at a much faster speed. We are getting ready to get our own injection machines. That is going to reduce manufacturing cost considerably once the machines are paid off. We are hoping to run all of our double stack mags ourselves. But if the machines aren't inplace we those are ready to roll we will be having them run in an outside shop. I was planning this all along but didn't think I would be able to until after a run or two of double stacks. But again, I have to thank ProMag for giving me the excuse I needed to drop the price. And I am sorry the drums was devalued. But if you trust me, then believe that my move is going to help the entire saiga-12 community in the long run.

 

I am not spell checking this, I am going to bed. I hope this helps explain to people.

[MikeD 541]

I know this topic is about drums, but I really believe that the true reason for the price drop is that the double-stack mags will pretty much make obsolete (other than a fun range toy) the drums as we know them. I know I'm a noob but, dammit, this is my gut feeling. Ergonomically I think we can all agree that a stick mag is better. Please don't take my post in the wrong light--I have and love my MD-20, but if a double-stack mag of equal quality becomes available it's a no-brainer for me! Maybe MD arms has recouped all of their start-up costs on the drum and is either using the price drop to expand customer base or, shit, I don't know! Excuse my ramblings.

The ProMag drum was the final decider in dropping the price. But the double stacks do have something to do with me wanting to drop the price before I did. For a few different reasons. I will explain those better once I can release more info on the double stacks. Sorry for withholding information on them but I am sure you understand.... And always trust your gut, lol!

[Snoofer 138]

mike d is what America is all about dude.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2010 by Snoofer

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I was reading this thread earlier, and 1st thing that came to mind was, I wonder if any of these people who are trashing this product/company, have ever tried a promag stick, or drum mag.

 

Count me in on the "Does indeed have first-hand experience with Pro Mag mags" bandwagon.

 

For me, it really comes down to this: Why in the hell would a company, who can't (or for some reason, won't) concentrate on getting their current products running better (or at all), suddenly jump into a different mag system for the same platform? It makes zero sense.

 

If I were a company, making products.....I would probably make sure the products I already had on the market were up to par. Or an even crazier idea.........how about even making sure said products perform like they should, before even putting them out on the market for sale. Crazy, I know . (...and I'm not even talking about post-release "bugs" that many products will have)

 

Apparently to them, having numerous sub-par products on the market, is better than having fewer dependable products on the market. You ever read the main page on their site? It literally is the complete opposite of reality, as far as their mags go.

 

Pro Mag is on the small list of companies who I will never deal with again.

 

Will they work? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care, as it's not something I will ever own. Pro Mag can FOAD, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe a little over the top, but that's how I really feel on this subject. Take it for what it's worth.

Edited February 13, 2010 by -Shooter-

[DogMan 2,343]

The way I see it, the guy who gets his product to market first has earned the right to have the monopoly that HE created by being the first to market. And as such he can sell his product for whatever he damn well pleases because when it come right down to it the product is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Nobody twisted my arm to buy one MD drum, let alone three. As far as the price drop goes, thats not bad for me, its just good for others.

[Apache 4]

After having read Mike's in depth explanation I stand by my previous statement: "Dance with the one the brung ya" ...

[Bvamp 604]

I know its comparing apples and oranges, but if we look back at the first aftermarket mags made for the saiga12, the keepshooting.com mags, they were extremely affordably priced (a bit too affordably priced at first), but they were meticulously made with some seriously involved methods to duplicating the feed design, mag lips, springs, etc. Despite them being very affordable, the manufacturing method that was used produced a magazine that nearly duplicated the feed reliability of the factory mag...at a really good price. There were almost zero complaints from the public, so far as I am aware. These mags are made on the same initial tooling as that first run that was released, and so far as I am aware zero changes were made.

 

What happened with the promag sticks? Well, apparantly the R+D/testing department at promag were not aware of just how picky the saiga-12 can be when it comes to how the mag fits, and that the firearm itself has some crazy variances in it's specs. It simply was not realized by them that they needed to test the magazine down more than a couple of shotguns, to ensure their mag pattern was correct in "looseness to tolerances". In the regular AK pattern, this isnt an issue, and would not have been an issue. In the case of saiga shotguns, it is a large factor in magazine production. If this had been realized at the time prior to production, I am SURE that their stick mag would have gone the same route as the keepshooting.com mags, and been a resounding success in the affordable mag market for this gun.

 

Promag, I am told, has learned from the last mistake they made, and I am hazarding a guess that they are going to release something that works right out of the box in most all shotguns, without adjustment. I will note, that even the Russian factory mags sometimes need fitting to the end-user's gun.

 

...we will see....my offer from the last SHOT still stands to offer to test these to failure, but its a mute point at this point, because they already are tooled up and ready to run on the line.

 

I am expecting these mags to work, if I had to put a yes or no to this issue.

[Tsm002 5]

Am I on barfcom or something?

 

Pull the tampons out guys. Christ. It's like watching a lifetime movie.

 

We haven't tried the product yet. See if it works. If it doesn't oh well, we know better and can definitively show that it doesn't work. If it does work, neato, another option for us.

 

Kind of win-win.

[MikeD 541]

Edit to add in post #103. Edit starts in BOLD.

[BrutalGardener 205]

Well.... I KNOW I DO NOT need to sleep with a Thai lady boy to make sure I'm STILL not Gay.......

Even if the Thai Lady boy is smokin' hot!!! Thai lady boys are pretty much known to be gay..

(*Disclaimer... No offense to any straight Thai lady boys out there!!!)

 

If I did... Odds are I'd get packed up my backside and my throat cut...

 

I feel the same way about Pro Mag.... Even if the drum is sexy....

Every Time I Try one of their products.. I get screwed in the butt & my throat cut!!!

I know I pretty much don't want to try it again on my dime....

 

If its the real thing... I'm sure we will hear about it....

 

^^Ladyboy^^

Looks sexy... but what's it got under the hood????

 

I'm not willing to pay to check it out...

 

That's some funny and poignant shit. Is that really a picture of a Thai "lady boy" though? Why would (s)he be carrying around Russian books?!? Weird...

[GimmeLiberty 0]

Damn right on start up costs ! Somehow you have to recoup your investment and being the only "real" drum on the market, we are lucky he was able to do this fairly quickly to pursue other neato projects...i.e double stack mags. Look at the LCD and Plasma TVs. Sheesh, do you all remember how much those damn things were when they first came out ? I remember seeing a 42" plasma for over $10,000 at bestbuy when they first hit the stores. Now you can get one for $500-$600 bucks. I am glad someone had the balls to see the market, knew what/where/how to get started, and was willing to gamble and put up the cash to see if his instincts were right and complete the project. Mike is what ingenuity and determination in America is all about. I praise the man for having the balls and instinct to do what he did and succeed.

[uzitiger 193]

I've been happy with my Pro Mag products. The Ruger Mini-14 30 rounder works flawlessly and drops when released. The Mini-14 20 rounder did need a little fitting due to less material shrinkage. The AK mags also work flawlessly (it's hard to fuck up an AK mag). Their 25 round 10/22 stick mags work flawlessly but sometimes they stovepipe on the first two shots.

 

I am not advertising for Pro Mag and if any product did not function for me I would post it on the forum. I did not like their 30 round magazine for the SKS and returned it. I never fired the SKS with it but it had to be fitted to the rifle. It's hard to design an aftermarket SKS magazine since the rifles have dimensional differences because they're made in different countries who modified them for their uses.

 

I haven't heard much good about their 10/22 drum magazine but I wouldn't want one anyway.

 

I saw the S-12 drum mags on Pro Mag's website and they don't interest me. I'm not into drums because stick mags are less expensive and are less bulky.

 

I would prefer a double stack magazine that will work. The ten round stick mag is too tall and acts as a monopod but I haven't experienced any jams with my Pro Mag ten rounder so I can't complain. It required the least fitting to the S-12 than AGP's second generation mag which I am happy with.

 

Making plastic magazines costs a lot of money in R&D and molds are expensive. Material shrinkage has to be taken into consideration when designing the mold and sometimes it is a black art. The mold also has to have the correct material flow in the mold to avoid knit lines where product integrity is compromised. The magazine designer also has to select the best polymer. I don't care too much for clear plastic magazines since usually they are more likely to develop cracks (like the Eagle Mini-14 mags I used to have).

[gunboy69 50]

First off..Mike D is a great American ,and i love my MD-20.

 

My experience with promag has been hit and miss. I had the first gen .22 drum Cobra mentioned,and it was horrible,but the new ones look like a big improvement. I have a ton of promag gsg mags that run perfect,so I would give the drum a shot for the right price. I held it at the shot show ,and it seemed pretty solid,but Im no plastic expert.

I should have asked them if I could bang it on the table. My guess is they would have declined....they weren't all that friendly when I told them what I thought of the 10/22 drum. Although they did tell me to send it back at no charge for a new replacement. I laughed and said,"no thanks, I already pawned it off on someone else". I am really happy with GSG mags though.

[jekbrown 14]

blah blah blah. I'll be interested to see what the results of tests with the PM drum show...but my money is going to MD. Forget about the 'driving over the mag with a truck' test. I have a simpler test. I'll email MD...and I'll email PM and see who responds more quickly. MD is part of the S12 community, and he not only responds to customers specific inquirys but also to the demands of the market better/faster than a company like PM ever will. I hope the PM drum works great, the more the merrier, but I'm still goin' with MD. Especially with reliable doube stacks coming soon.

[Crusader 64]

I had bad experiances with promags.

[ErikTaylor 41]

I wonder how the ProMag R&D meeting for the drum went..................

 

 

 

R&D 1: Well, we managed to royally fuck up these stick mags.

R&D 2: Yup. Sure did. What's the plan for our next venture into bullshittery?

R&D 1: I say we get into the drum market.

R&D 2: Brilliant! Let's forget about making our current products better, and just put another piece of shit out on the market to dupe unknowing souls.

R&D 1: Ah yes. I mean, really, if they don't know better.....they're going to assume our products work, because our name is Pro Mag.

R&D 2: <greedily rubs hands together>

 

Hahahaha this just made me laugh. Might be true, but who knows...

 

Mike, I do appreciate the long response you made. It's nice to see that someone with a dream made it come true, despite what has happening politically. Not only did you make the dream come true for yourself, but also for hundreds of thousands of people. Unforutunately with the being the orginator there are immataters/competitors which in turn creates the debacle that's going on right now. Also, it's fun to see ball park figures of what things actually did cost and to show that you were just making a few bucks on it instead of the millions that everyone thinks you were. To think someone to startup a business like Mike did and to expect millions from the get go are foolish. There are start up costs, prototypes, etc. Basically everything that Mike just explained. Not to mention something like this you probably aren't working a full time job so your daily living expenses are needing to be taken care of as well. So in other words Mike lived a less than comfortable life for the last 1.5 years to bring us the drums we love. Now of course "comfortable" is relative, but give the guy a break! I applaud your efforts.

 

Is the Promag going to work? Who knows. We'll all see shortly. However, for a few extra bucks there is a tried and trued design. Let's face it. Promag isn't known for improving products. They are a company for people that can't afford some of the overpriced gun components that are out there.

 

It all boils down to business. Promag is trying to layer the market with the cheaper alternative to the MD and AA drums. Simple as that. As stated before a lot of people couldn't afford an MD or AA drum, so Promag is wanting to offer something within the price range that they are offering their product in hoping to attract buyers. With us Americans being able to choose whatever the hell we want, really leaves it up to each of us. It's up to you whatever you buy. We aren't forced to buy anything we don't want to. Are you a POS because you choose a Promag drum over MD? Grow up! We all are adults who cares what other people think about you. It's your money spend it where you want. Are you going to get the same performance out of the drum? Who knows because there isn't a product out yet. However with Mike dropping the price I am willing to bet that sales of Promag will be greatly impacted. Is Mike making more for each drum? Sure because I'm sure he doesn't have those same start up costs that he had originally. Does he deserve it? MOST CERTAINLY! If he didn't start this drum craze for the S-12's I'm sure we'd all still be sitting her wishing someone would make a damn drum, and probably think how awesome the 10 round mags are for these.

 

I stand behind Mike (no homo) and his products and always have. Shit at a $100 bucks it makes it even easier to.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

You guys should really hold out for my double stacks. You will be able to get 2 of the double stacks for that price! They will work without the wondering. They will hold 3 inch as well as 2 3/4. They will still be a tight package. They will be more manageable, grabbing a stick is easier than grabbing a circle.... And more...

 

Good call on the promag cover. If you look it doesn't appear that the cover braces the body diameter like our drums. And don't expect them to use the same material as our drums. Let me point something out here. The material in your typical promag magazine is inferior to material used by other people. The material used by other people, that blows away your typical promag material, is inferior to our material... I don't see these promag drums taking much abuse, such as an occasional dropping by accident. I definitely don't see them standing up to being run over. We will see... I am almost betting it will pancake.

I agree with Mike, these look cheaply made, but in this market as I have found out, most people don't give two shit's about great product, they're just looking for cheap crap!

[Juggernaut 11,054]

 

I agree with Mike, these look cheaply made, but in this market as I have found out, most people don't give two shit's about great product, they're just looking for cheap crap!

 

 

 

I'll take my MD/Chaos over Promag/UTG any day of the week....