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SpetsnazGRU

Dissapointed with my particular S308

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So, earlier this year, I picked a used, 22" barrel, standard polymer furniture Saiga 308 made in 08. It had a number of finish scuffs, but was rather clean. It came with a factory 8 rd mag and two pristine 25 rd Surefire mags. I paid $445 for it.

 

Later, I noticed that it has a nasty FSB cant. In fact, in order to get it sighted at 100 yards, the front side post had to pushed pretty much all the way to the right. Also, I couldn't shoot any kind of consistent groups worth talking about. I attributed it to the stock trigger and ergonomics, as well as the increased recoil. I figured that the grouping would get better after the conversion and more practice.

 

My intention was always to restore it to a "Saiganov" configuration and use it for hunting and intermediate range target shooting. I did restore the rifle using a Dinzag FCG and a Choate drag stock. I also put a 4x24 POSP scope I had lying around on it.

 

Any way, the gist of this story is: even after the restoration and hundreds of rounds of practice, this Saiga 308 still doesn't come any where close to shooting as well as my Mosin Nagant M39 or (more importantly) my Arsenal SGL21 7.62x39 mm, at either 100, 200 or 300 yards.

 

I mean, my MN shoots 1 inch 100 yard groups with Silver Bear SPs and my SGL21 shoots 1.75" groups with Brown Bear HPs. The groups I get with the S308 using Brown Bear FMJs are not worth a precise measurement; the best of them seem to be about 3.5", with most being 4+ inches. Switching to Remington brass rounds doesn't result in any noticeable change.

 

At 200 yards, with the MN (2-7x scout scope) and SGL21 (PK-AS scope), I consistently score clean "head shots", while S308 only produces occasional clean hits. Shooting at a human chest-sized metal plate at 300 yards, the MN scores consistent hits, SGL21 does it every other time and the S308 mostly misses.

 

So, with most people here claiming that their S308s are far more accurate than their 7.62x39 mm's, what's the deal with my rifle? Did I end up with a particularly inaccurate, "vodka special" type of gun or what? I suppose that that would explain why the original owner got rid of her so fast, dumping her on unsuspecting 'ole me.

 

Is it wrong to expect this gun to shoot better than my SGL21? Should I get rid of her and get another S308, with reasonable expectations of it being more accurate? If I do put it up for sale, being an ethical guy, I guess I'm going to have to tell the potential buyers that the rifle is less accurate than usual, which will bring down the sale price. :( What do you guys think?

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I bet if you recrowned the end of the barrel, that would help. It should cost more than $50 or so from a gunsmith. You can also buy the tools and try it yourself, but the tools are probably more than $75 alone. My guess is that the end of the barrel isn't finished real well. You might also check to see what it cost to correct the front sight while you are at it. It probably wouldn't be much more.

 

Remember that these are military grade weapons and a 3.5-4" group is acceptable by many Gov't. I do agree that it is a tad poor for a Saiga. Mine shoots closer to 2-3" with cheap ammo, not to mention I am behind the gun (a better, practiced shooter could do better). I haven't run it with quality or match ammo for accuracy.

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Second the recrown. Brownells sells a kit for not too much that cuts a 45 degree chamfer in your muzzle - the terminus of the rifling is what you need uniform and affects accuracy. You get the little cutter kit and then a .308" pilot that goes into it - you can get all kinds of sizes of pilots and use this for many rifles.

 

You should be getting 2" and less at 100 yards with a Saiga .308 - that's what both of mine have done - 22 and 16" models.

 

As to the fsb cant, I would just knock the retention pin out, place the fsb in a padded vice and rotate it to straighten and then drill a new hole through the retention pin hole in the base and re-insert the pin. This is what I've done with several AK's and it works.

Edited by O.S.O.K.

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If I do put it up for sale, being an ethical guy, I guess I'm going to have to tell the potential buyers that the rifle is less accurate than usual, which will bring down the sale price. :( What do you guys think?

 

How do you know what is "usual" for a Saiga .308? Is someone more likely to talk about his groups on a forum if they are good or just average? I say sell it at full price and make no representations as to accuracy. If you need to boast, tell them how reliable the rifle is.

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I make the guys with deer rifles mad as hell at the range with mine. It's only 100 yards at the place I go where other people are. Now I am not saying it is more accurate, just that it is as accurate, and I can shoot a hell of alot more times than they can without a reload. And it's an AK. Known for inaccuracy right? 500 dollar AK just as accurate as a 1500 dollar deer gun. I'd be pissed too. I would look at the crown as well. It may be an ammo thing too. Maybe I am just lucky. I do have a really nice scope too. 4-24 X 56. Don't know what to tell you. I have been wanting a 16" 308 though and if you want to sell it cheap let me know. I'll cut it and recrown it.011.gif

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Have you tried just for grins brass ammo? My 308 likes for some reason Brown Bear and brass and really prefers brass. Not even expensive brass as I buy the reconditioned mil stuff. But the worst I get is 4MOA from wolf fmj and thats ok for a battle rifle. Not saying at all that something is not amiss you could always send to RAA to fix the cant and complain about the accuracy who knows maybe they will fix it for free. This is why one rifle is none and 2 rifles are one rule exists.

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Have you tried just for grins brass ammo? My 308 likes for some reason Brown Bear and brass and really prefers brass. Not even expensive brass as I buy the reconditioned mil stuff. But the worst I get is 4MOA from wolf fmj and thats ok for a battle rifle. Not saying at all that something is not amiss you could always send to RAA to fix the cant and complain about the accuracy who knows maybe they will fix it for free. This is why one rifle is none and 2 rifles are one rule exists.

 

Yeah. I did shoot a box of Remington brass. Didn't see a noticeable improvement. RAA/Cadiz doesn't perform free warranty work on converted guns, do they? Any way, I remembered that I still tend to flinch when I shoot this rifle and also, I haven't done enough shooting using the irons. Perhaps my scope is lose. Going to go and shoot some more rounds using the irons this weekend.

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Any way, I remembered that I still tend to flinch when I shoot this rifle

 

I like to bring my 10/22 to the range with me to help in detecting flinch. Usually I see the flinch creeping back in after firing the Mosin some.

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Well, if you're flinching.... thats probably the cause of your larger groups.... doncha think? ;)

 

I would suggest putting a slip-on recoil pad on there to help with that. Also, I don't know what trigger you have - this is a pg conversion, so you used something - I like my Red Star/ Power Customs trigger a lot - I have it adjusted to a clean-brake, single action and it makes accurate shooting much easier than a long or stagey trigger.

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Yeah if you are flinching your groups are going to expand like crazy. Common problem saw one suggestion last week that made a lot of sense. Wear ear plugs and ear muff type hearing protection to really bring the sound down. Theory being the loud bang is what your brain is really reacting to. Dry fire also works as does shooting a 22.

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Any way, I remembered that I still tend to flinch when I shoot this rifle

 

That is probably having a much bigger effect on accuracy than anything mechanical. Try letting someone else shoot it and see how they do. Work on shooting technique. You can have a .25 MOA gun but if you are flinching and/or jerking the trigger you'll never get anywhere close to that.

Edited by Zambidis

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You cannot compare a bolt action to a semi. There is a reason that precision long range shooting is done with a bolt gun - they are more accurate by the basic design. Bolts are more accurate, but semi's a a lot faster for follow up shots. Hunt hard to get close to critters with a bolt. If there is more than one of them and they can shoot back - get a semi!

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Any way, I remembered that I still tend to flinch when I shoot this rifle

 

That is probably having a much bigger effect on accuracy than anything mechanical. Try letting someone else shoot it and see how they do. Work on shooting technique. You can have a .25 MOA gun but if you are flinching and/or jerking the trigger you'll never get anywhere close to that.

 

Come to think of it, it did take me some time and practice until I started shooting good groups with my Mosin. These calibers do make quite a bit more of a bang than the 7.62x39 mm weapons, which feel like pellet guns to me by now. The first time that I shot at a deer with the Mosin, I missed the thing completely, even though it was under 50 yards, had its side turned to me and it wasn't going anywhere. I knew that I missed, even before the bullet left the barrel. I wasn't "in the zone" and really jerked the trigger. Later that day, I dropped one from 75 yards, with a perfect chest shot. I was really "in the zone" that time - everything was in slow motion, tunnel vision, calm, controlled breathing and gentle squeeze of the trigger; the deer never stood a chance.

 

I just got 250 more rds of Brown Bear .308 and will keep practicing with the Saiga. Will remove the scope from the equation for now. Will see if I can bring my 100 yard grouping under 3".

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I was really "in the zone" that time - everything was in slow motion, tunnel vision, calm, controlled breathing and gentle squeeze of the trigger; the deer never stood a chance.

 

For deliberate shooting, try not breathing. At the end of an exhale, hold it, squeeze the trigger and follow through before breathing in again.

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I've only run silver bear through my .308 (though I picked up some south african surplus I wanna try).. havn't had problems with it.. Hope you get yours sorted.... a lot of potential in these guns

Edited by volkov

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I shoot best on a slow exhale, I start with a slightly high hold, and squeeze gently and SMOOTHLY as the sight picture comes down to the 'sweet spot'.The old timers called this "pulling down on the target"

Also make sure to pull the stock into your shoulder and then roll your shoulder into the stock. You do NOT want to use enough force to cause mussel tremors, just enough to ensure that you and the rife recoil together. Too loose and the stock will beat you up, too tight and it is hard to get a steady sight on the target.

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