reciever poll

[The Bamster 0]

If someone were to offer a cnc machined steel reciever for the saiga 12 for a reasonable price would anyone be interested? Could you Justify sacrificing a new saiga for parts? This is my first post and the poll part didn't come up as expected.

Edited March 19, 2010 by The Bamster

[BUFF_dragon 3]

Depending on what features that it would offer above the standard reciever...... I would be interested....

[cynical 8]

Depending on what features that it would offer above the standard reciever...... I would be interested....

 

I second that. Aside from adding weight, what would I get that the current stamped receiver doesn't give me? The sad part about the scarcity of parts is that you'll have to destroy one S-12 for each one you build on a milled receiver, so it really needs to add something worthwhile.

 

I think the potential is there to have an integral magwell, maybe an integral rail and/or sight mounts, and no doubt other things I can't think of off the top of my head. With a few features like that, I think it definitely has possibilities. But just a plain milled receiver? Doubt it.

[KrisFox 69]

You do realize that its the front trunnion on the Saiga 12 that is the receiver and not the sheet metal part.

 

US made receivers would be another compliance part, as well as an open door to a Saiga-12 AOW, an attractive option for those who live in ban states.

[cynical 8]

You do realize that its the front trunnion on the Saiga 12 that is the receiver and not the sheet metal part.

 

US made receivers would be another compliance part, as well as an open door to a Saiga-12 AOW, an attractive option for those who live in ban states.

 

 

That would be news to me. In all the stamped receiver AK-pattern rifles, it's the sheet metal assembly with the trunnion riveted in that's the serial-numbered receiver. Is the S-12 different?

 

I guess you could make a milled receiver that a front trunnion could be installed into, but in the milled receiver rifles the barrel goes straight into the receiver with no separate trunnion.

Edited March 19, 2010 by cynical

[KrisFox 69]

You do realize that its the front trunnion on the Saiga 12 that is the receiver and not the sheet metal part.

 

US made receivers would be another compliance part, as well as an open door to a Saiga-12 AOW, an attractive option for those who live in ban states.

 

 

That would be news to me. In all the stamped receiver AK-pattern rifles, it's the sheet metal assembly with the trunnion riveted in that's the serial-numbered receiver. Is the S-12 different?

 

I guess you could make a milled receiver that a front trunnion could be installed into, but in the milled receiver rifles the barrel goes straight into the receiver with no separate trunnion.

 

By ATF regulations the part with the serial number is the "firearm" on the Saiga-12 that serial number is on the front trunnion.

 

ETA:

Edited March 19, 2010 by KrisFox

[The Bamster 0]

Here's a pic of a prototype motorcycle rim I designed and built for the biker buildoff show. Unfortunatly, the show was canceled before it was used. Had to eat the cost, was done on a 5 axis haas.......awesome machine but very spendy.

Edited March 19, 2010 by The Bamster

[Wade Pruetz 103]

I think pressing out the barrel to install it into a billet receiver would be a big hassle, and I can't see a lot of people doing it but it wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong. Also how the energy wave propagates down the gun has a big influence on cycling the bolt carrier, making the receiver more rigid may cause problems you have never thought of. Good luck though I like to see diversity, all these guns are starting to look the same.

[cynical 8]

 

 

By ATF regulations the part with the serial number is the "firearm" on the Saiga-12 that serial number is on the front trunnion.

 

ETA:

 

On AK rifles with a similar bulge at the front of the receiver, that's still the receiver bulged out to wrap around the trunnion. I never looked that closely at that area on my S-12 and just assumed it was the same. You learn something new every day.

[WFO2 3]

That is different from Ak's . I remember buying them torch cut in kits with the front trunnion still intact . I'm learning a lot about these saigias .

[wired 27]

So much misinformation. Saigas are the same as AK's. Even though the trunnion is the serialized part it is still considered part of the receiver rivets or no rivets. The trunnion cannot be legally changed on an AK IF it is serialized even if another trunnion is given the same serial number if the original receiver is non serialized like most factory AK's. To do so would be considered defacing the original serial number and that is forbidden by the 68 GCA. Rebuilds that use parts kits are not using the trunnion as the actual serialized part and do not count. You can change receivers but that would be the same as destroying the receiver and starting fresh with a new receiver. 922r and the ATF prior rulings conflict on this and many people assume that because the trunnion is listed as a separate part in 922r that the ATF considers it distinct from the receiver. For the purposes of "the serialized part" they consider the trunnion and the receiver to be one and the same if the receiver itself is not serialized. The ATF has issued MANY rulings to that effect over the years. You can change receivers all you like and you can even reuse the original trunnion if the new receiver is serialized . This would be considered creating a new rifle or shotgun and is not illegal. Using a milled receiver with an integral trunnion would also be legal but there would be no requirement to reuse the original serial number or anything like that as you would be building a new gun.

Edited March 20, 2010 by wired

[KrisFox 69]

So much misinformation. Saigas are the same as AK's. Even though the trunnion is the serialized part it is still considered part of the receiver rivets or no rivets. The trunnion cannot be legally changed on an AK IF it is serialized even if another trunnion is given the same serial number if the original receiver is non serialized like most factory AK's. To do so would be considered defacing the original serial number and that is forbidden by the 68 GCA. Rebuilds that use parts kits are not using the trunnion as the actual serialized part and do not count. You can change receivers but that would be the same as destroying the receiver and starting fresh with a new receiver. 922r and the ATF prior rulings conflict on this and many people assume that because the trunnion is listed as a separate part in 922r that the ATF considers it distinct from the receiver. For the purposes of "the serialized part" they consider the trunnion and the receiver to be one and the same if the receiver itself is not serialized. The ATF has issued MANY rulings to that effect over the years. You can change receivers all you like and you can even reuse the original trunnion if the new receiver is serialized . This would be considered creating a new rifle or shotgun and is not illegal. Using a milled receiver with an integral trunnion would also be legal but there would be no requirement to reuse the original serial number or anything like that as you would be building a new gun.

 

 

BBBZZZZZZTTTT!!!!

 

Wrong!

 

The Saiga 12ga is different from all other Saiga rifles and shotguns, the ATF regards the front trunnion as the firearm. All other components including the stamped sheet metal body are just "parts".

 

You can strip all the parts you want from ANY firearm and assemble them on a new receiver as long as it is 922r compliant in it's final configuration and it is not in an NFA configuration.

 

If you make the receiver yourself and don't intend to sell it you don't even need to have it serialized.

 

Look up "completing an 80% receiver"

 

 

 

In short, a milled "body" for the S-12 would be cool, especially since that part would not be a firearm and could be shipped direct to someone who wanted to use it.

[bigj480 203]

In short, a milled "body" for the S-12 would be cool, especially since that part would not be a firearm and could be shipped direct to someone who wanted to use it.

 

Regardless of who is correct, one could manufacture a milled receiver with an integral trunnion and it would transfer as a firearm. That's they route I would go if I were you, Bamster. That way their is no doubt and they could be used to make AOWs. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about rivet length or placement. I know I would buy one or two, even if just for the novelty. I do agree that added features would make it more desirable, though. Accepting standard AK rear sights would be nice. Perhaps a built-in rear trunnion set up like the Russian folding stock models. A model with a built in side mount would be cool. A built in trigger guard, mag catch, safety stop and grip nut would be cool. A built in mag well, for those who want them, would be cool. Saiga 12s cost less than my krink parts kits, I would have not problem sacrificing one. An aluminum receiver would be cool to see also, as would a different profile receiver.

Edited April 11, 2010 by bigj480

[diamondback 56]

Better still would be, if parts-kits were more readily available, cutting 80% PCR's...

[wired 27]

So much misinformation. Saigas are the same as AK's. Even though the trunnion is the serialized part it is still considered part of the receiver rivets or no rivets. The trunnion cannot be legally changed on an AK IF it is serialized even if another trunnion is given the same serial number if the original receiver is non serialized like most factory AK's. To do so would be considered defacing the original serial number and that is forbidden by the 68 GCA. Rebuilds that use parts kits are not using the trunnion as the actual serialized part and do not count. You can change receivers but that would be the same as destroying the receiver and starting fresh with a new receiver. 922r and the ATF prior rulings conflict on this and many people assume that because the trunnion is listed as a separate part in 922r that the ATF considers it distinct from the receiver. For the purposes of "the serialized part" they consider the trunnion and the receiver to be one and the same if the receiver itself is not serialized. The ATF has issued MANY rulings to that effect over the years. You can change receivers all you like and you can even reuse the original trunnion if the new receiver is serialized . This would be considered creating a new rifle or shotgun and is not illegal. Using a milled receiver with an integral trunnion would also be legal but there would be no requirement to reuse the original serial number or anything like that as you would be building a new gun.

 

 

BBBZZZZZZTTTT!!!!

 

Wrong!

 

The Saiga 12ga is different from all other Saiga rifles and shotguns, the ATF regards the front trunnion as the firearm. All other components including the stamped sheet metal body are just "parts".

 

You can strip all the parts you want from ANY firearm and assemble them on a new receiver as long as it is 922r compliant in it's final configuration and it is not in an NFA configuration.

 

If you make the receiver yourself and don't intend to sell it you don't even need to have it serialized.

 

Look up "completing an 80% receiver"

 

 

 

In short, a milled "body" for the S-12 would be cool, especially since that part would not be a firearm and could be shipped direct to someone who wanted to use it.

 

 

Got the official ATF ruling on that one or is it up there with the 922r gas puck thing that no one has an opinion letter on either?

 

Until shown an official letter I don't see the Saiga 12 being different than a regular AK.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I would get one if it had a LRBHO, magwell that didn't require mag mods, and was aleady tapped for installation of a standard AK trigger guard.

[G O B 3,516]

Do some research. Right here in this forum you can find the original BATF letter - Saiga shotguns do not have a front trunnion. THAT part is the receiver. This is why Saiga shotguns have 14 imported parts, unlike AK's which have 15. I will not SHOW you, look it up for yourself or STFU.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

If someone were to offer a cnc machined steel reciever for the saiga 12 for a reasonable price would anyone be interested? Could you Justify sacrificing a new saiga for parts?...

 

Personally, no and no. The OEM stamped steel receiver works well and will most likely outlast me.. and maybe my kids, (who haven't even been conceived yet).

Edited April 12, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[wired 27]

Do some research. Right here in this forum you can find the original BATF letter - Saiga shotguns do not have a front trunnion. THAT part is the receiver. This is why Saiga shotguns have 14 imported parts, unlike AK's which have 15. I will not SHOW you, look it up for yourself or STFU.

 

 

I'm too dumb to use the search feature for more than 5 minutes.

 

 

The linked website to Wes's letter no longer works.

 

The ATF has repeatedly ruled that serialized trunnions are inseparable from the sheet metal receivers in other AK's and there is no mention of a difference between the rifles and shotgun trunnions in the US code sec 922r. The ATF writes all sorts of opinion letters that they later reverse. I don't see the basis for this in the US code. Its just not there and basing 14 parts ( !!!! ) on one opinion letter that doesnt seem to be available any more is foolish.

 

 

http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html

Edited April 12, 2010 by wired

[vitamink 90]

If it hasn't been said yet...Props for the amazing motorcycle wheel, not my style, but it looks really good. sorry to hear the show didn't air.

[KrisFox 69]

In short, a milled "body" for the S-12 would be cool, especially since that part would not be a firearm and could be shipped direct to someone who wanted to use it.

 

Regardless of who is correct, one could manufacture a milled receiver with an integral trunnion and it would transfer as a firearm. That's they route I would go if I were you, Bamster. That way their is no doubt and they could be used to make AOWs. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about rivet length or placement. I know I would buy one or two, even if just for the novelty. I do agree that added features would make it more desirable, though. Accepting standard AK rear sights would be nice. Perhaps a built-in rear trunnion set up like the Russian folding stock models. A model with a built in side mount would be cool. A built in trigger guard, mag catch, safety stop and grip nut would be cool. A built in mag well, for those who want them, would be cool. Saiga 12s cost less than my krink parts kits, I would have not problem sacrificing one. An aluminum receiver would be cool to see also, as would a different profile receiver.

 

I like the all in one Idea.

 

Nix all the trunnion/receiver guess work and make it all one part.

 

Receiver, front and rear trunnion, mag latch.

 

Options.

 

Rear options for milled style stocks, Russian and Bulgy 100 series folding stocks, under folders and flat solid block (AOW).

 

Standard AK sight block or S-12 dovetail, w or w/o mount for hinged top cover.

 

Milled in trigger guard with selector stop or TIG on traditional.

 

W or w/o Magwell.

 

Pistol grip hole or built in stud.

 

W or w/o side rail.

 

Other ideas?

[Eric Pate 478]

Do some research. Right here in this forum you can find the original BATF letter - Saiga shotguns do not have a front trunnion. THAT part is the receiver. This is why Saiga shotguns have 14 imported parts, unlike AK's which have 15. I will not SHOW you, look it up for yourself or STFU.

 

+1!

 

 

I personally don't see a need for a machined reciever, JMHO.

[wired 27]

Do some research. Right here in this forum you can find the original BATF letter - Saiga shotguns do not have a front trunnion. THAT part is the receiver. This is why Saiga shotguns have 14 imported parts, unlike AK's which have 15. I will not SHOW you, look it up for yourself or STFU.

 

+1!

 

 

I personally don't see a need for a machined reciever, JMHO.

 

That link to the ATF opinion letter no longer exists . Better yet show in the 68 GCA or 18 US Code 922r where it says the Saiga shotgun and the AK are somehow different when it comes to the trunnion and receiver relationship. I have no doubt the ATF tech branch issued an erroneous letter to Wes. I also have no doubt if you sent another letter to the ATF asking for clarification that whoever answers the letter this time might actually read the law and reverse the earlier opinion letter. Just because they issue one wrong letter doesnt mean they won't reverse it later. Atkins Accelerator ring a bell?

 

If I didnt have an opinion letter issued from ATF tech saying that removing the serialized trunnion from an AK was NOT kosher without destroying the receiver I might buy it but I do and there is absolutely no difference between the trunnion to receiver relationship on the Saiga shotgun compared to any other stamped receiver imported AK. The trunnion receives the barrel and the bolt on both but the ATF has consistently said they were inseparable without the destruction of the sheet metal receiver in the same fashion that would be required for importation.

 

 

Only one way to be sure.

Edited April 13, 2010 by wired

[Eric Pate 478]

Opinion letters are only valid for the person they are addressed to. Two different people could get two completely different responses to the exact same query and they would both be legally valid.

 

I think we're trying to find logic where there is none to be found.

[bigj480 203]

I think we're trying to find logic where there is none to be found.

 

Hear, hear!

[wired 27]

Opinion letters are only valid for the person they are addressed to. Two different people could get two completely different responses to the exact same query and they would both be legally valid.

 

I think we're trying to find logic where there is none to be found.

 

Thats why when you don't have YOUR opinion letter in hand its best to fall back on the letter of the law.

 

A receiver is the sheet metal part. The barrel trunnion is the trunnion. Stamped guns have both.

 

 

I have no intention of just spouting shit. I plan on building an AOW with Saiga 12 parts. I know I cant do that with a shotgun receiver but I can do that with a virgin Romanian RPK receiver. Receiver being the stamped sheet metal part. The Saiga barrel trunnion will get reused since it is not the receiver. So I'm going to write the ATF for an opinion letter that will apply to my case. Who wants to wager which way they go?

Edited April 13, 2010 by wired