corbin 621 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 (edited) Hi guys I recently picked up a Draco and it's one of the funnest things to shoot I own, next to my Saiga 12. Fireballs are awesome and it hasn't jammed once. I've installed an Ultimak and will be installing an Aimpoint T1. Recently, a new member posted this pic of their S-12 with an interesting handguard on it: I've since found out that it's an angled fore end made by Magpul. Here's a collage I made of some better pics: My question is, do you think a forearm like this would constitute a "pistol grip" on a Draco pistol, and hence make it an AOW? Thanks for your opinions. Corbin *edited* Changed the name Promag to Magpul. Sorry for the mix up. Edited March 25, 2010 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Is it sold as a "grip"? As everyone just LOOOOOOVVES to point out, "intent" is everything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 (edited) Is it sold as a "grip"? I think they market it as an "Angled fore arm". No mention of vertical grip. I don't think it's meant to put your thumb through the hole even. I'm not going to post a link to the site, but it's Magpul. Easy enough to find. *edited wrong name* Edited March 25, 2010 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 (edited) do you think a forearm like this would constitute a "pistol grip" on a Draco pistol, and hence make it an AOW? it's not what anyone on this forum thinks if it is or isn't, it's what the ATF says if it is or isn't. I, myself, wouldn't chance it, I don't have the 10s of thousands of dollars laying around for attorney fees. and I know that the defense, "but you're honor, the consensus on a gun forum says it's not a verticle grip" won't fly. if you want to real to know contact the ATF technical branch and get it in writing. Edited March 25, 2010 by Matthew Hopkins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Is it sold as a "grip"? I think they market it as an "Angled fore arm". No mention of vertical grip. I don't think it's meant to put your thumb through the hole even. I'm not going to post a link to the site, but it's Promag. Easy enough to find. Dude, you've just insulted MagPul. ProMag doesn't innovate, they steal copy other's innovations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 if you want to real to know contact the ATF technical branch and get it in writing. . . and then you can still go to jail when they perjure themselves and state that they never wrote anything . . . If they want you, they're gonna get you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vitamink 90 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Corbin what you're referring to is the magpul AFG i have one on most of my rifles. I'm a little leery to put one on the draco though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) Yep, you're right. My bad. I called it a Promag instead of a Magpul. I had just spent a while reading up on Promag's Saiga 12 drums and their name must've still been in my head. Sorry. The Magpul AFG is what it is. I just might write the ATF a letter and ask. Vitamink, do you have one on a Saiga rifle? If so, how do you like it? Corbin Edited March 25, 2010 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
clifton 354 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 I wouldent do it... Looks to be almost a grip, would make it look almost like a AOW... and almost is good enough to getcha to the station. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Here, I fixed it for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Thanks Setlab. That's MUCH better. LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 I couldn't find the pic of that one guy's Draco that he painted orange to disguise it as a toy, so it's the best I could do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Magpul officially calls it an Angled Fore Grip. Key word GRIP. You might be alright using a handstop on your rail but since Magpul called it the AFG, I'd be leery of putting it on the Draco. The handstop may even get you in trouble. A group of friends and I were fortunate to conduct some evals on the AFG for Magpul. We shot it on multiple platforms from ARs to AKs, and my S-12, and multiple brand rails. It's a nice product, not for me, felt awkward on all weapons. I am too used to a Vertical Fore Grip I guess. It also had some clearance issues with some quad rails ranging from not fitting with certain types of rail covers on the sides to not clearing other accessories mounted on side rails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyoz 15 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Interesting interpetation of wording here. i think it would be worth writing a letter to the ATF about. It doesnt have a grip in the traditional sense and is still part of the forearm itself with more than one point of contact. Its not something i would use since it looks very akward but who knows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vitamink 90 Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Here is a picture on my Maadi and on my RRA, then a closeup on the RRA. Sorry this took so long Corbin...the "attach" button wasn't available the other day for some reason. The Ak has a midwest ind. rail forend and a TWS dogleg rail. I took the light off so AK so you can see what it looks like. The AFG spans the entire length of the MI rail and looks as though it came like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Here, I fixed it for you. Gonna throw on some fatigues and carry it in a State Park now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elia.jon1 1 Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 (edited) i'm pretty sure it has been hashed out with the ar pistol guys that the magpul afg is a no no edit to add......aow Edited March 29, 2010 by elia.jon1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Gonna throw on some fatigues and carry it in a State Park now? Ummmmmm.....NO! Maybe if I paint the muzzle orange? Just kidding. i'm pretty sure it has been hashed out with the ar pistol guys that the magpul afg is a no no edit to add......aow Yeah, I was going to try and check out one of the AR forums, but never did. If I was going to AOW it, I'd just have a regular vertical grip. But I'm more likely to just do the paperwork and SBR it (once MI allows SBRs). At that point, it won't matter. Thanks guys Alia.Jon....... You don't happen to be from MI do you? The reason I ask is a guy I used to shoot with is named Jon and his daughter is named Alia. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Gonna throw on some fatigues and carry it in a State Park now? Ummmmmm.....NO! Maybe if I paint the muzzle orange? Just kidding. i'm pretty sure it has been hashed out with the ar pistol guys that the magpul afg is a no no edit to add......aow Yeah, I was going to try and check out one of the AR forums, but never did. If I was going to AOW it, I'd just have a regular vertical grip. But I'm more likely to just do the paperwork and SBR it (once MI allows SBRs). At that point, it won't matter. Thanks guys Alia.Jon....... You don't happen to be from MI do you? The reason I ask is a guy I used to shoot with is named Jon and his daughter is named Alia. Since it was originally manufactured and sold as a pistol, IIRC, you cannot SBR it. Same goes for putting a buttstock on those AR pistols. I'd check on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Since it was originally manufactured and sold as a pistol, IIRC, you cannot SBR it. Same goes for putting a buttstock on those AR pistols. I'd check on that. I'm sorry, but you have it backwards. You can make a rifle out of a pistol, but you can't make a pistol out of a rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I knew it was something like that. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elia.jon1 1 Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 nah, from texas, and thats a E lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkbit 109 Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 How about one of these for a pistol? Called a hand stop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 How about one of these for a pistol? Called a hand stop. Those are always brought up in Arfcom's AR Pistol subforum too. Personally, I'd stay away from anything protruding below the handguard on a pistol. Just my $.02 on the matter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bean.223 365 Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 How about one of these for a pistol? Called a hand stop. It looks like a sex toy.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
L5K 162 Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 I would say write a letter to the ATF and wait. Until they tell you that the AFG is specifically okay to use on a pistol, don't do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 I would say write a letter to the ATF and wait. Until they tell you that the AFG is specifically okay to use on a pistol, don't do it. . . and then wait until some other doofus writes to them and gets whatever they told you reversed. Then where are you? It's easy to follow the law. Does adding that "sex toy" make the pistol "designed to be used with two hands"? For those of you who say "don't add anything", think about this: With the existing forearm, you are using two hands to hold and fire the pistol. Does that make your Draco illegal? I mean, c'mon and be honest, how many times have you seen someone shooting their Draco like this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 28, 2010 Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 For those of you who say "don't add anything", think about this: With the existing forearm, you are using two hands to hold and fire the pistol. Does that make your Draco illegal? Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. But for me personally? I'll stay away from anything protruding beneath the forearm of a handgun/pistol, that could be construed as a "vertical grip" of any kind. YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted August 28, 2010 Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 What about a flashlight that can have it's angle adjusted? Would that be illegal. Many people have flashlights on their pistols. What do you guys think about that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 28, 2010 Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 What about a flashlight that can have it's angle adjusted? Would that be illegal. Many people have flashlights on their pistols. What do you guys think about that? Me personally? I'd feel fine putting a light on a handgun/pistol. It's the grips/handstops/etc that I'm talking about me staying away from. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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