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more .223 magazine woes


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In my other thread, "Circle 10 .223 Mags won't fit", I detailed my difficulties with those magazines. Having finally got them to work, I notice one more issue with them, as well as with a different problem with the Galil steel mags that came in the mail a few days ago.

 

The Circle 10 mags shoot flawlessly at the range. I notice that the top-most cartridge is high enough in the receiver, though, for it to be ridden by the bolt somewhat. First I noticed that if I do a chamber check by pulling the bolt back slightly, it hangs and does not want to slide forward. (It will go all the way forward if I pull the bolt back all the way, or when firing). I found lubrication that was on the bolt in a line on the top cartridge. It does not appear to affect function, but I guess I'm concerned about it causing too much wear on the bolt over the long term as the gun is fired more often.

 

As for the steel Galil mags, the gun feeds nicely with them. However, there is a fair amount of side-to-side play, even more so than with the Orlites. I was able to induce feeding malfunctions by tilting the mags all the way to one side and pulling the bolt. Mind you, that's not normally the way I'd fire the gun, but it bothers me that it is possible. I could envision being in a low, roll-over prone position and experiencing the problem. I guess there is no way to fix this excessive side-to-side play? I'd like to salvage these steel mags, if possible. They are very tough, and small for their 35 round capacity.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Digriz
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I have to agree with CW, heck I've bought 15 rd, 20 rd and 30 rd Surefires on the forum and are paying the same as what the circle 10's run without having to mod a thing. They fit perfect, are US (have a little flag on them) and are built well. I'm not a fan of the last shot hold open feature as it's different than all my other AK versions. I'm happy with the Surefires (I have a few of the old steel Surefire .223 mags built on the Wieger mags and they ROCK! I bought them at a fun show for $20 each and they look and work great!)

 

CCS has had the Surefires for $28 each and that ain't bad.

 

My 2 cents and have not had any problems.

 

Frosty

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The more I think about it, the problem with the bolt riding the top round of the Circle 10 mags should be solved by filing the locking tab some more. The locking tab of the Orlites is about half as thick, and it has some play in it; in my gun, the Circle 10 mag has no play, and I had to file the locking tab just to get the gun to accept it at all. Filing it some more will allow the magazine to drop lower, and should clear the way to use the Circle 10s unhindered. I don't mind doing a little work to fit them, and at their current price, they are not only much better than the Surefires, but cheaper too!

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I've got some of the 50rd Galils and the flop from side to side like my dogs tongue out the truck window. I've been thinking about feeler gauging the clearance on each side and getting some steel banding material, cutting it to length and tigging it to the sides. Haven't done it yet, just some of the late night, can't sleep brain storming sessions. The mags could then be glass beaded and refinished. The banding material is available in different thickness and widths from suppliers.

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I've got some of the 50rd Galils and the flop from side to side like my dogs tongue out the truck window. I've been thinking about feeler gauging the clearance on each side and getting some steel banding material, cutting it to length and tigging it to the sides. Haven't done it yet, just some of the late night, can't sleep brain storming sessions. The mags could then be glass beaded and refinished. The banding material is available in different thickness and widths from suppliers.

 

I had the same thought last night about the 35 rounders. I think wobble could be reduced by adding a little bit of material toward the front in the top half-inch or so. And very little wobble has to be done away with to make them fully reliable, judging by the Orlites, and by the one steel mag that I can't induce a malfunction in by trying.

 

By the way, how is feeding in your 50 rounders? Do they normally work reliably?

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The circle 10 5.45 mags seem to work better when you add a half round section of dowel onto the follower. It pushes the last round up a little more so the bolt can grab it. Here's my Saiga 223. It's currently being shipped to me, but I can take pics when I get it if you like.

 

S-223copy.jpg

 

 

 

Corbin

 

 

 

*EDIT* I just learned that the mag in the pic is NOT a 5.45 mag, but a Bulgy 5.56 one. My bad. :unsure:

Edited by Corbin
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I've got some of the 50rd Galils and the flop from side to side like my dogs tongue out the truck window. I've been thinking about feeler gauging the clearance on each side and getting some steel banding material, cutting it to length and tigging it to the sides. Haven't done it yet, just some of the late night, can't sleep brain storming sessions. The mags could then be glass beaded and refinished. The banding material is available in different thickness and widths from suppliers.

 

I had the same thought last night about the 35 rounders. I think wobble could be reduced by adding a little bit of material toward the front in the top half-inch or so. And very little wobble has to be done away with to make them fully reliable, judging by the Orlites, and by the one steel mag that I can't induce a malfunction in by trying.

 

By the way, how is feeding in your 50 rounders? Do they normally work reliably?

 

Rather than make modifications to each & every mag, why not look at the receiver? Most Saiga receivers come without the 'dimples,' which are there to limit side-to-side motion of the magazine (IIRC). If your receiver doesn't have the 'dimples,' why not try adding a little aluminum pad to the inside of the receiver on each side of the mag well? Try epoxy at first to see if it works for you, and something more permanent if you're worried about the pads coming loose (assuming they work). I thought about it early on (my .223 does not have the 'dimples'), but the way I built it has my Galil Orlites locked in rock solid, so I never needed to experiment. No 'dimples' needed on mine...

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I've got some of the 50rd Galils and the flop from side to side like my dogs tongue out the truck window. I've been thinking about feeler gauging the clearance on each side and getting some steel banding material, cutting it to length and tigging it to the sides. Haven't done it yet, just some of the late night, can't sleep brain storming sessions. The mags could then be glass beaded and refinished. The banding material is available in different thickness and widths from suppliers.

 

I had the same thought last night about the 35 rounders. I think wobble could be reduced by adding a little bit of material toward the front in the top half-inch or so. And very little wobble has to be done away with to make them fully reliable, judging by the Orlites, and by the one steel mag that I can't induce a malfunction in by trying.

 

By the way, how is feeding in your 50 rounders? Do they normally work reliably?

 

Rather than make modifications to each & every mag, why not look at the receiver? Most Saiga receivers come without the 'dimples,' which are there to limit side-to-side motion of the magazine (IIRC). If your receiver doesn't have the 'dimples,' why not try adding a little aluminum pad to the inside of the receiver on each side of the mag well? Try epoxy at first to see if it works for you, and something more permanent if you're worried about the pads coming loose (assuming they work). I thought about it early on (my .223 does not have the 'dimples'), but the way I built it has my Galil Orlites locked in rock solid, so I never needed to experiment. No 'dimples' needed on mine...

 

 

Same opinion of bad bob, I use galil orlites must of the time and they fit really tight on the mag well, as I open the well to fit the orlites

with out any mods to the mags, on the other hand I use galil steel mags too and silver solder 2 small plates on each side of the well

as no dimples on my guns. no wobble on the steel galil orlites. And yes 35 round steel galil and 12 rounders work on my guns.

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  • 5 weeks later...

The follower mod I was talking about was for converting a 5.45 mag to a 5.56 one, but really, it's not worth it. The curvature difference between the mags makes for crappy feeding.

 

I just modded 8 more Bulgy 223 mags for my Saiga. The first couple ended up being a tad overdone, so they wobble a little. The rest are very nice. I followed the instructions HERE.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Corbin

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I admit that money is not an issue with me, so why I do things might be differently motivated. I've played with the surefire, OE mags, and pro-mags. Experimenting with different options. If "mil-spec" magazines are the most important to you, which they really shouldn't be, the best option is the dinzag bullet guide and pro-mag .223 magazines with the tab snapped off. Magazines are $10-$11 each and they are VERY DEPENDABLE. The ONLY pro-mags that seem to have had problems are the ones where people try and use the tab for the bullet guide. Get rid of that, and I've NEVER heard of a magazine issue with the promag.

 

If mil-spec is for some reason important to you, the best option is by far the AR/Saiga magazine adapter. Especially one that requires such little modifications, like the renegadebuck model. Definitely no more complicated than adding a bullet guide. (Which you don't have to do with the renegadebuck adapter. Then, you can get mil-spec AR15/M16 steel magazines for $5-$8 each. The magazine adapter actually pays for itself compared to the price of circle and orlites.

 

1. Nonintrusive: Use Surefire or OEM magazines.

2. Easiest: Dinzag bullet guide and snap the tabs on the pro-mags.

3. Best of ALL: AR/Saiga mag adapter. Use mil-spec and high available AR/M16 mags; is removed as simply as removing a magazine, so using original magazines can still be done.

 

Just my opinion, but I just don't see the advantage of paying for expensive galil, orlite, and circle magazines. Not when you can get AR/M16 mags that are mil-spec so cheaply. Or if you do use a dinzag bullet guide, it stops you from using original and surefire magazines without adapting them. If I'm going to use a bullet guide, I think I'd go for the pro-mags with the tabs snapped.

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I admit that money is not an issue with me, so why I do things might be differently motivated. I've played with the surefire, OE mags, and pro-mags. Experimenting with different options. If "mil-spec" magazines are the most important to you, which they really shouldn't be, the best option is the dinzag bullet guide and pro-mag .223 magazines with the tab snapped off. Magazines are $10-$11 each and they are VERY DEPENDABLE. The ONLY pro-mags that seem to have had problems are the ones where people try and use the tab for the bullet guide. Get rid of that, and I've NEVER heard of a magazine issue with the promag.

 

If mil-spec is for some reason important to you, the best option is by far the AR/Saiga magazine adapter. Especially one that requires such little modifications, like the renegadebuck model. Definitely no more complicated than adding a bullet guide. (Which you don't have to do with the renegadebuck adapter. Then, you can get mil-spec AR15/M16 steel magazines for $5-$8 each. The magazine adapter actually pays for itself compared to the price of circle and orlites.

 

1. Nonintrusive: Use Surefire or OEM magazines.

2. Easiest: Dinzag bullet guide and snap the tabs on the pro-mags.

3. Best of ALL: AR/Saiga mag adapter. Use mil-spec and high available AR/M16 mags; is removed as simply as removing a magazine, so using original magazines can still be done.

 

Just my opinion, but I just don't see the advantage of paying for expensive galil, orlite, and circle magazines. Not when you can get AR/M16 mags that are mil-spec so cheaply. Or if you do use a dinzag bullet guide, it stops you from using original and surefire magazines without adapting them. If I'm going to use a bullet guide, I think I'd go for the pro-mags with the tabs snapped.

 

I respect your point of view, christcorp, but I come out exactly opposite to your analysis.

- The Galil steel mags can be had right now for $12.95 apiece, which is hardly expensive.

- The ProMags are still untested in terms of long term use. The brand doesn't inspire confidence, and, if these mags are like their other Saiga mags, they lack steel and are not very rugged.

- The Surefires are expensive, and have the LRBHO, making them behave different than the other mags in the system. One uniform behavior for all mags is preferable.

- AR/M16 mags are one of the weak points of the AR system, and I got an AK for reliability. You can get reliable AR mags, but you will be paying more than $5-8. Additionally, the operation is different than for other AK options, and muscle memory will come in handy in a fight. I have Saiga AKs in other calibers, and I want all of my mags to be engaged and released the same way. (By the way, doesn't the trunnion have to be modified to use the AR mag adapter? Or so I thought).

 

For me, the Galil steels look like the way to go. They may not work in some Saigas, but they work in mine.

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No one has mentioned Weiger 223 mags yet? excellent steel construction, Lock up tighter than a seals butt hole, and function 100%. You will need a bullet guide and also trim a little from the top of the mag. I've tried all the mags mentioned and weigers are the best. they might be hard to find though.

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My Promag (which is just a 233 mag and not a modded Saiga model) has worked well so far, though being in MI where the temp gets down below zero, I'd prefer a steel reinforced mag on the front and back lockup points. The Circle 10 mags are my choice.

 

Cheap mags do not always equal the best mag. OK for range. Not for me though. Kinda like when you're buying parachutes.....You might be able to save some money on used ones that "someone, somewhere" repacked, but will those few dollars saved matter if it doesn't work when you need it to? Again, range time is one thing, but for a home defense situation, me and my family's life are worth the extra 10 bucks you spend on Circle 10s.

 

 

Just my view. You're entitled to your own.

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The more I think about it, the problem with the bolt riding the top round of the Circle 10 mags should be solved by filing the locking tab some more. The locking tab of the Orlites is about half as thick, and it has some play in it; in my gun, the Circle 10 mag has no play, and I had to file the locking tab just to get the gun to accept it at all. Filing it some more will allow the magazine to drop lower, and should clear the way to use the Circle 10s unhindered.

 

This worked well, but it's rather a pain to do all that filing on every mag. I've filed the two Circle 10s that I have, but I think I will be using the Galil steels mostly.

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Jim; first I have to apologize for a "TYPO". I meant to say that if "Mil-Spec" was NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, then the promags with the tabs broken and a dinzag bullet guide would be the best choice. Unfortunately, I said if Mil-Spec WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT to use the dinzag and promag. This is incorrect.

 

For mil-spec, I have no problem with AR15/M16 magazines. There are plenty of options for them. Green followers are reliable. Either way, the AR15/M16 magazines are by far the most available .223 magazines in the world. More than the galil or any other .223 magazine. They can definitely be found for less than any of the others.

 

But I don't think most people need that type of military reliability. Most have a pistol or shotgun for self defense. Yes, there are a lot of Rambo types out there, but most people aren't like that. So, except in a red-dawn scenario, an AK/AR type weapon won't be used. Therefor, the mil-spec magazine reliability is over-rated. I feel totally confident in my promag, surefire, and OE magazines if I need to use that weapon for self/home defense. After shooting more than 1500 rounds through it since November just experimenting on various magazine options, I'm quite confident. No one will be sorry with a $32 dinzag bullet guide and $10-$11 promag .223 saiga magazines. Or, spending $125 for a renegadebuck AR/Saiga magazine adapter and $5-$8 GI AR/M16 magazines.

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But I don't think most people need that type of military reliability. Most have a pistol or shotgun for self defense. Yes, there are a lot of Rambo types out there, but most people aren't like that. So, except in a red-dawn scenario, an AK/AR type weapon won't be used. Therefor, the mil-spec magazine reliability is over-rated.

 

I think you may underestimate the chance of some real ugly things going down. People defended themselves and their possessions with AKs (among other weapons) during Katrina. In Nashville over the weekend, there was record flooding. There was talk of the Wolf Creek Damn being compromised - it is known to be structurally unsound - which would have made Nashville look like New Orleans after Katrina, or worse, likely leading to some of the same kinds of unsavory events. Also, I don't know if you have done any reading on what went down with the financial crisis in late 2008, how close we actually came to utter economic collapse. I'm not really confident that that danger has been permanently averted, rather than postponed.

 

It's not at all beyond the realm of possibility that people might at some time have to use the AKs for more than range work...

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I agree Jim. I think it's quite possible to need such a weapon. Maybe not on a day to day experience, but for something like a Katrina. But I feel quite comfortable with the promags and the surefires. And definitely with AR/M16 mags. If I've shot each magazine numerous times, with thousands of rounds, I think I can trust it for defensive purposes. I don't think I need to go out and get a "Hard to find" magazine for it. Especially when the ones I have, haven't had any problems in the past. That's my main point. That "MIL-SPEC" is over-rated. Each weapon is unique with it's own personality. Some like some ammo while another doesn't. Same with magazines. Even though they are identical rifles. Find the couple/few magazines that you have shot enough times to be comfortable with, and have them for your self defense mags. mike..

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I agree Jim. I think it's quite possible to need such a weapon. Maybe not on a day to day experience, but for something like a Katrina. But I feel quite comfortable with the promags and the surefires. And definitely with AR/M16 mags. If I've shot each magazine numerous times, with thousands of rounds, I think I can trust it for defensive purposes. I don't think I need to go out and get a "Hard to find" magazine for it. Especially when the ones I have, haven't had any problems in the past. That's my main point. That "MIL-SPEC" is over-rated. Each weapon is unique with it's own personality. Some like some ammo while another doesn't. Same with magazines. Even though they are identical rifles. Find the couple/few magazines that you have shot enough times to be comfortable with, and have them for your self defense mags. mike..

 

Well, you may be right about the milspec stuff. Maybe it's just my over-cautious nature. I'm glad you've found what works for you.

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If it gets that bad it would be good to have the versatility of both. While the galil's are cheap right now, it is nice to be able to use AR mags as well. Ar are more readily available, but if you come across saiga or other that will fit you can use both.

 

just a thought.

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I agree that the versatility to be able to use AR mags would be a good thing. I wouldn't mind having an AR adapter for MY Saiga. The mags ARE the most available 223 mag in the World. Perhaps not the most durable or reliable in the World, but the most available for sure. I've had two M-16 mags die on me in "real World" situations. One was ran over by a car and got bent outta shape enough to not work and the other got dented on the side enough to freeze up the follower.

 

While I haven't used a 223 AK in any type of combat, I HAVE busted off the locking tabs on non-steel reinforced AK mags. Not in combat though, thank God.

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