Saiga 12 Bullpup Prototype - gauging interest

[Bvamp 604]

Well, I'll cut to it. I was recently contacted by a nice gentlemen named Bernie Rolfe about his bullpup kit for a stock saiga 12. It will not need the gun to be modified, and he is planning to expand his patented design and mechanism into the other saiga calibers, and the AK pattern as well. After a little discussion, he has given me the go-ahead to tease you guys with a little bit a info.

 

I am posting a link to his website, keeping in mind vendor rules here (HEY! I AM a vendor) and the fact that he has not reached full production stage at this time. He has a couple of prototypes built, and is in the process of bringing this little sucker to market. I am SURE he will come on board here once he starts production.

 

I thought this was something the community would want to be aware of, which is why I am posting it....

 

http://www.cbrps.com/

 

 

I can probably answer SOME questions you guys might have, but this thread is being put up to gauge interest in this particular design. It balances right on the pistol grip, and the weight is close to the stock gun's weight.

 

So far, interest seems good, but I thought I'd throw the topic to the Saiga-12.com community for this potentially upcoming and innovative product. I like it, myself, as I was working on a similar design not long ago, and it far outclasses the brick and board chop jobs and crappy looking kits I have seen so far.

 

I have communicated some various issues to Bernie so far (the bullpup trigger issue for instance) and so far, he has had answers, all of which have sounded good, so far.

 

...we will see...prognosis looks good on this one folks....

 

(in photograph, gun appears a shade of green due to background foliage light defraction....gun is all black)

[theplastik 67]

It definitely looks awesome.

 

My concern would be how fast you can reload compared to the standard style.

I personally would find it difficult and end up smacking the mag into the wrong places.

Do you know how hard the recoil is?

 

Either way, Good Luck. It looks like a fun modification.

Edited April 21, 2010 by theplastik

[Bvamp 604]

well there is plenty of room....and recoil is mostly determined by weight and action type, so it would be similar to the stock gun's recoil.

[DrediKnight 0]

What's with the mag on the front?

Edited April 21, 2010 by DrediKnight

[Bvamp 604]

it is a spare holder, a counterweight, and front grip if you want to use it- odd, but different approach

[towerofpower93 22]

Depending on price and ease of installation I think it would be very interesting for a second S12.

 

Is this a DIY kit he's coming out with or a full on "send it to a smith" type of kit? Any idea on starting price?

 

Thanks

 

Eric

[Bvamp 604]

Starting price is yet to be determined, according to Bernie. He communicated to me that he wants to keep it affordable.

 

No modification to the stock Saiga is required...

[IndyArms 10,186]

Centerbalance bullpups were discussed here recently... not sure what section... cause I know *I* commented in it...

 

 

[pedal2alloy 206]

I don't want to be critical because I really respect people who take the risk to develop these kind of new things.

 

So here's my positive constructive criticism:

 

The PG looks cool, but the fore grip looks to be really bulky. Also, I don't think the extra mag under there is a good idea, and also doesn't make a good vertical fore grip.

 

One question, is the buttstock covered with something for secrecy at the moment, or is that part of the actual buttstock?

[volkov 318]

this is coming from the guy who bullpupped a mosin nagant and made an AK bullpup with.. what was it.. three magazine holders?

 

 

This guy seems to be all about flair and thats my biggest concern with his products... I'm feeling like he would sacrifice ergonomics and functionality to satisfy the mall ninjas out there

 

just my opinion.

 

edit: just to put it out there.. If it was proved that his products were durable, ergonomic, and functional (I mean we're talking about AK's here) I would be more interested. They look very bulky, heavy, and sci-fi ish to me.

Edited April 21, 2010 by volkov

[BpS12 512]

Looks really cool.

 

However, from experience, on a Bullpup, you loose length but gain height, fair exchange in my book. You will NOT be able to use the OE sights as the cheek weld is now on the receiver cover. Rasied BUIS or optics are your only choices, which I see on his page that he has an optic mounted. I notice that every rifle in his gallery has an optic as well.

 

Secondly, this kit will not work with the Gunfixers Gas Knob, nor even the existing OE adjustor, as is. At least from what I see on the page. I think it could be modified easily enough though.

 

Also, he might want to consider doing something like an extended tab over the front of the receiver cover, just in case of the "rare" breach explosion, which tends to push the cover backwards and up in the front. For liabilty if nothing else, esp since your face is now laying on the cover itself. I would also recommend a cheek plate, plastic or aluminum, on the cover. Something to disipate the little heat you get built up.

 

The front Mag storage is a neat idea, but it seems like a bit of unnecessary bulk. Shoot, at first I thought it was a grenade launcher, lol. Though I have toyed with the idea of mounting a .45 under the barrel as a detachable backup weapon.

 

As for balance, I like haveing most of the weight between my shoulder and firing hand. Makes for quick target aquisition and ease of using the off hand to swap mags, operate the safety/charging handle.

 

Overall, I see ALOT of potential, but the gas adjustment fix is a MUST. The S12 is not like all the other weapons on his web page.

 

Would I be interested, If I wasn't building my own, oh Hel ya!

[Maker 0]

Im new to these forums, only recently found out this gun exists. But your design would seem to fix many issues im having with what i want vs the legal barrel lengh etc:. Much like a few have said I'm also concerned with the comfort and reliability of the modded weapon. If indeed it retains the legendary durability. This is indeed the fix to my current problems.

[Bvamp 604]

This is not my design at all....

[Azkamidaka 26]

Wow, only time will tell about all the unanswered questions. But I will say that it looks pretty interesting indeed.....now just a magwell and a drum to go with it and Id be quite a camper happy.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

The design look is very sweet, these guys have there shit on ball!!!! I haven't like any of the bullpup designs until seeing his website, great designing, now if they install and function like they look, WOW!

[bohound 281]

I seem to remember the "center balance" done in this style, with the spare mag in front. Let me think....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=52380&hl=mall%20ninja&st=0

 

Hmmm. Not sure I like bullpup adapted to a proven platform. Something STARTS as a bullpup, different story.

 

Now that I look again... Same company. Look at the insignia on the PG. That does it... Holy Grail of Mall Ninja it is in white... Paint it black and y'all love it???

Edited April 21, 2010 by bohound

[Bvamp 604]

well, considering this is a prototype you are referencing, do you know WHY it is white? probably not, Im guessing

 

 

negative and good comments are just as valuable, btw

[DogMan 2,343]

I seem to remember the "center balance" done in this style, with the spare mag in front. Let me think....

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ll%20ninja&st=0

 

Hmmm. Not sure I like bullpup adapted to a proven platform. Something STARTS as a bullpup, different story.

 

Now that I look again... Same company. Look at the insignia on the PG. That does it... Holy Grail of Mall Ninja it is in white... Paint it black and y'all love it???

 

I was thinking the same thing. The color change doesn't change my opinion of it any but I'll keep an open mind for now. Its just not something that makes me want to have it. Kind of bulky, kind of awkward. Not the gun I would grab in a life threatening situation. This is the kind of gun that I want lots of OTHER people to buy first and talk lots about and then maybe, just maybe we'll see.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Poor design IMO. Lots of things that just don't look right... but good luck with it.

 

[Eric Pate 478]

Well I'll echo what a few others have said:

It seems unnecessarily bulky on the forend, gas regulator adjustment is a must, it needs some kind of iron sights, the buttstock seems odd somehow but I can't really see it that well.

 

IMHO the two most important things are going to be LOP and trigger pull.

 

And I will definately say this: The front mag holder is STUPID. Lose it, seriously.

 

Overall, I think its got alot of potential, but you're really gonna have to work hard to show people that its purpose if function and not just looks.

[Eric Pate 478]

anyone care to guess why the other ones are all white? cookie for the first who guesses.....

 

 

Is it because its made of Delrin and Delrin is white?

[yellow fever 0]

I have mixed feelings about this company, based on the reviews for some of the other products I've seen them put out. First one I saw was for a stock for a .22 Remington and it reviewed well. It had a hybrid aluminum and polymer frame which looked great and seemed pretty durable. Then I saw a review for the SKS kit and it looked like a bunch of polymer pieces cut and bolted together, wasn't very impressive. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, that's just my assessment from the pictures I saw. I am curious to see which way this kit goes. I've also read that people are knocking the Delron material saying that it degrades in sunlight, not sure what they are talking about because from what I've read this material is susceptible chlorine and hot water. Don't know if that is a better or worst situation. Personally I think this kit has potential but the only way to tell will be when someone puts it together and does a range test. If it gets good review I'd definitely try it.

[Stansplace 414]

I would be interested in a bull pup, but the front mag has got to go. If it works and the trigger resets as fast as a stock one I would be interested. The only real criticism I have beyond the mag in the front is it is too bulky. The whole idea of a bull pup is to have a smaller package. Instead of bulking it up and adding crap, I would rather have the opposite done. Trim anything that isn't absolutely necessary. In my mind a bullpup isn't just to shorten a weapon system, it is to make it compact, light, and maneuverable. Strip it down baby!

[Sigurd 3]

This thing is screaming for a magwell (capable of carrying double-stack mags of course)! I am not a big fan of the front mag as I carry spares elsewhere. I have used other bullpups (rifles mostly) and I have to ask how you would use a drum with this? I do not think my wrist would turn that way. Other than that I would say it looks good and if it is reliable I would get it for at least one of my S-12s (my wife is a lefty so I cannot convert all of them). My two cents worth. Good luck!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I like to see companies offering products for us 'gun lovers'.

 

That being said, this thing just looks too 'busy' and the LOP looks crazy long. A phrase comes to mind....

Kushnapup meets HALO....

 

If it was 'toned' down a little, people may buy it. It nice to see someone trying something in the way of a Bullpup S2 though, but I'll pass.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Considering I have an AK bullpup and the fact the ergonomics of the S-12 are the same, this would be ok for a range toy which mine is but I wouldn't use it for anything else. Everything to run gun is too far to the rear to be efficient. (Mag, Mag release, Bolt handle, Safety). The AK wasn't designed as a bullpup as are purpose engineered and manufactured ones in service which are easy to run IMO. I've run the FN 2000, MSAR STG-556, and the P-90 BTW so I believe I can compare fairly accurate. The kit looks cool but the MD-20 is a no-go. I cannot shoulder my AK bullpup with a 75 rd drum which is smaller in diameter than the MD-20. Looks cool in a photo but I cannot imagine trying to clear the drum and fire effectively. If the S-12/AK mag release was different and could be adapted with the kit to release via a button/lever on the pistol grip, plus a bolt handle similar to the MSAR, I'd go for it as those two mods alone would make it a quicker gun to run. It doesn't need to be a bullpup to be short and manuverable though, just sayin!

Edited April 22, 2010 by MT Predator

[Zambidis 90]

I'm very interested in a S12 bullpup but not the design shown on that website.

 

Here is a recent thread on these designs http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=52380

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Considering I have an AK bullpup and the fact the ergonomics of the S-12 are the same, this would be ok for a range toy which mine is but I wouldn't use it for anything else. Everything to run gun is too far to the rear to be efficient. (Mag, Mag release, Bolt handle, Safety). The AK wasn't designed as a bullpup as are purpose engineered and manufactured ones in service which are easy to run IMO. I've run the FN 2000, MSAR STG-556, and the P-90 BTW so I believe I can compare fairly accurate. The kit looks cool but the MD-20 is a no-go. I cannot shoulder my AK bullpup with a 75 rd drum which is smaller in diameter than the MD-20. Looks cool in a photo but I cannot imagine trying to clear the drum and fire effectively. If the S-12/AK mag release was different and could be adapted with the kit to release via a button/lever on the pistol grip, plus a bolt handle similar to the MSAR, I'd go for it as those two mods alone would make it a quicker gun to run. It doesn't need to be a bullpup to be short and manuverable though, just sayin!

 

I would like to see an S12 Bullpup that was a cross between your avatar and this prototype

 

I saw the video of that particular weapon. My sides were hurting by the time it ended

[teddyraynelson 2]

Personally, I'd ditch everything from the pistol grip forward. Trim some of the fat. I do like the sling and the carry method. I also like that triggers will be offered in different widths. I would like to see better protection on the cover, seeing as how your face would be right on top of it, maybe continue the rear/side cover up and over a little more.

[Bvamp 604]

well, Ill let you know after I share my observations and findings with Bernie in a couple weeks after I review his prototype and send it off to Max for his thoughts. All information released will be released with permission of the designer, of course.

 

The opinions are good, folks. keep em coming....id much rather continue my task of helping newcomers into the saiga world in whatever extent that they want to come here, get help, or develop a product that we all might want, than to write off something that looks overall good as crap because of something that isnt on the top of my list for "what I want". NO idea or question is stupid if its stated or asked honestly. not where I come from, anyway....

 

I will reiterrate what Bernie relayed to me, and say that all opinions, if founded on fact, are good here. keep them coming. likes/dislikes

 

you dont want a backup mag up front, it dont have to come with it. you want the slimmer trigger, that will be an option as well.

 

keep in mind, all options are open and on the board at this point, and this is to see what the CONSUMER wants to see. take advantage of it, instead of knocking it off as a joke.

 

in the end, you all ARE going to get a bullpup that most (cant make everyone happy) wants, and that will sell.

 

 

 

go saiga, GO!