Saiga 12 Bullpup Prototype - gauging interest

[FRC64 2]

Do away with that awkward front mag stowage, clumsy. Also, if that is a front foldable pistol grip I see folded up in the front end, does it lock down? I'd rather have a short section of rail under the front hand guard and have those who want a forward pistol grip choose their own style.

 

Other than those questions, have some of the most knowledgeable members here field test them for quality, fit and finish. I'd then be a customer as I'm pretty impressed with the over-all design.

[Superhawk138 202]

I agree with doing away with the extra mag stowage and slimming the foreend down some. I like it otherwise as I like bullpups in general and like seeing new options being delivered to us. Go for it Bernie!

[vitamink 90]

I like the storm trooper white. You'll need that if you ever have to guard darth vader (i do honestly dig the white). I actually almost purchased a sks bullpup stock from him, but i heard bad reviews on a different web site of parts not fitting together well and so forth. So i went with this one http://sgworks.com/ and not so much because of a few bad reviews, but because it seemed like it had less mass and was 170$ cheaper. Hell i did a pre order about 6 months ago and i'm still waiting for the thing to be made. I do appreciate him bringing more options to the s12 platform and wish him success. Until i hear reviews or the price is cheap enough that if it sucks, who cares i probably won't buy one.

[PVT Pablo 25]

I'm sorry but that thing looks goofy. I'm not a fan of the huge forend and the butt stock that doesn't match the rest of the gun. I thought the kushnapup looked better.

[ChowDog 2]

I am DEFINITELY interested in that bullpup! It looks awesome and, as some say, life is too short for ugly guns!

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Interesting idea, definitely needs a little work. In general I don't care for bullpup AKs, just because of the rock-and-lock design - makes inserting mags a pain in the ass. Add a magwell, then you're talking. I gotta agree with the consensus, the front mag holder is strange and I wouldn't be using it. If the ergos were right, that stock on an AK rifle with a mag well, LRBHO and bolt release could be a decent setup. Iron sights are a must.

 

Having poked around the site, in all fairness I have to mention the Mosin Nagant stock. What the hell is the point of a bullpup bolt action? Just trying to make that follow-up shot take longer? If there's something I'm missing...

[Bvamp 604]

note that Bernie has done a few different designs so far, and thrown a few ideas into them. nothing wrong with that AT ALL.

 

 

why think inside the box?

 

 

Nothing wrong with product development, either, is there....OR hearing what the consumer thinks and wants pre-production....

[Bayoupiper 738]

I too would suggest trimming down the front end furniture.

 

My preference would be for something along the lines of the Tavor front end.

[skiboatsp 111]

anyone care to guess why the other ones are all white? cookie for the first who guesses.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it because its made of Delrin and Delrin is white?

 

Polyoxymethylene (commonly referred to as POM and also known as polyacetal or polyformaldehyde) is an engineering thermoplastic used in precision parts that require high stiffness, low friction and excellent dimensional stability. It is commonly known under DuPont's trade name Delrin.

 

 

 

It can be produced in virtually any color most common are white, off white, black, brown, red, green, and translucent.

[mgconnor13 206]

Front end looks very bulky and brickish like some thing from HALO, my wife thinks it looks like some thing a storm trooper would be carrying. When I first saw it I thought the mag on the front was some sort of mag fed grenade launcher. I think streamlining and blending the edges would go a long way, the edges are just too harsh and the design looks cluttered with all the edges, vents and weird angles. Clean up the front end so it's one simple clean shape that is easy to hold. Maybe something similar to the front end of the FS2000 or a galil style hand guard. A mag well would be a welcome addition to the design. In general I find bull-pups to be awkward. Is the only way to attaches sights that short section of picatinny rail in front of the gas block? How do you adjust the gas valve? Is the safety lever on the side still the safety? just a couple thoughts I had.

[joebanda1213 59]

I want A mosin Bullpup. That thing is sweet... By the way you bullpup a bolt action for the same reason you bullpup any gun = Its shorter.

 

 

Back on topic if I wanted a short saiga 12 I would sbs it. Just suffer range but then again its a shotty. I think the only way to make a practical S12BP is to keep the action and parts then build a custom receiver trunnion around it.

 

Keep the creative Ideas coming I am off to buy a mosin

[MT Predator 2,294]

I want A mosin Bullpup. That thing is sweet... By the way you bullpup a bolt action for the same reason you bullpup any gun = Its shorter.

 

 

Back on topic if I wanted a short saiga 12 I would sbs it. Just suffer range but then again its a shotty. I think the only way to make a practical S12BP is to keep the action and parts then build a custom receiver trunnion around it.

 

Keep the creative Ideas coming I am off to buy a mosin

Work the action for a follow up shot with a bullpup Mosin and then you may ask WTF? Make sure you get a 91/30 or a M44 so it is as short as you can get it hero.

Good luck with it, maybe you can outdo this Mosin.

Edited April 23, 2010 by MT Predator

[MT Predator 2,294]

On a side note, maybe Bernie needs to use realistic photos for his work. The pic with the MD-20 looks cool...try to shoulder the weapon. I cannot clear a 75 rounder on my AK bullpup to reach the pistolgrip. Add in more diameter on a MD-20, you really can't fire the damn weapon. I got my bullpup out and put in a 75 rounder to toy with it. I can't see it with a 12 ga. Any of you out there with homebuilt S-12 bullpups run a drum?

Edited April 23, 2010 by MT Predator

[ChowDog 2]

Okay, after having inspected the pictures a little closer, here's my two cents.

 

The forward mag holder is not the best idea. If at all possible, I would turn that into some sort of tac light housing like one of those Surefire shotgun forearms.

 

Also, I'm not thrilled with the idea of putting my cheek right on top of the original stamped-metal receiver cover. Other than increasing the cost of the item, is there any reason why a thicker plate couldn't replace the original one? I know bullpups tend to elevate the shooter's eye line (sorry if I'm not using the correct terms here), but with a more elevated rail attached to the front, this would not be a problem.

 

Hopefully these suggestions were helpful and don't come off as needlessly critical. I like the Tavor-esque look of the forearm and am looking forward to seeing this project go further!

[Bvamp 604]

Here is a sketching that Bernie has made based on some suggestions here....check his site for other sketches and a thank you note.

[Snoofer 138]

i like the new sketches better. the fore end on the other one was a bit bulky.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Snoofer

[BpS12 512]

Much better, Esp. the short barreled design. For the long barrel, might I suggest doing away with the built in foregrip and lengthening the fore of the stock with P-rails full lenght and all round. Makes it much more customizable.

 

He's getting there though.

[PVT Pablo 25]

Yep, now that's gettin better.

[Dave 1]

New short barrel sketch looks badass.

[Kliegl 304]

My comments.

 

It looks silly, and, if I were to buy a bullpup, I'd buy an AUG. Nothing against art and craftsmanship, but your FACE is going to be less than a quarter inch from an explosion generated by a Russian made gun modded by some dude.

 

Aesthetically, the second round of drawings look better. The butt looks odd, and looks like it's there just to cover the original trigger group. I'd be interested to know just how you're going to get that big Harley up on the high dive, er, get the trigger pull from way out in front of the bolt back to the AK fire control group. Electrically?

 

Functionally, the ergonomics are off. The grips are too close together, the front is too far back, and the right is too far forward. Consider custom mags that cant backwards instead of forwards so you can move the pistol grip back.

[mgconnor13 206]

front grip is bulky looking. probable be better off with a fore grip like the one on the AUG or a fore grip based off a pump action shotgun's front grip.

 

I'd considering enlarging the butt pad too.

 

the newer sketches are much better.

[unusedusername 3]

I'd be interested to know just how you're going to get that big Harley up on the high dive, er, get the trigger pull from way out in front of the bolt back to the AK fire control group. Electrically?

 

 

 

I would like to know this as well.

 

The second pictures look pretty awesome though. I wonder how much it is going to be, and when I can get one

 

Does it require you to cut the tang that holds the stock, or is all this bolt-on?

 

Edit to add: where do you put the sights? Is there rails on the carry handle?

Edited April 24, 2010 by unusedusername

[FRC64 2]

Much better, Esp. the short barreled design. For the long barrel, might I suggest doing away with the built in foregrip and lengthening the fore of the stock with P-rails full lenght and all round. Makes it much more customizable.

 

He's getting there though.

 

I definitely agree with BpS12 on the long barrel version. I'd like to see more barrel covered with a longer foregrip. A nice tri-rail up front would allow the use of rubber rail covers as a simple foregrip (my preference) or customized with a forward pistol grip.

 

The shorty looks very nice, as is. I really would like to see this in a prototype. Would make a great entry shottie.

I had a chance to shoot several Tavors when invited by an Isreali friend last summer and the short barrel S-12 above has dimensions that look very similar to the Micro-Tavor which is an outstanding weapon.

 

 

If you haven't any actual shooting experience with this weapon layout and are concerned with ergonomics, simply remove the stock from a S-12 to shoulder it at the receiver end and you can then see where your strong hand would feel most comfortable, (ie. length of pull). I have an S-12 barreled action and stuck on a tri-rail. I was able to closely simulate Bernie's set up with a pistol grip and find it very comfortable (I'm 6'-2").

 

Also, I'm quite impressed with the speed at which Bernie came up with re-worked shop drawings based on consumer input.

Edited April 24, 2010 by FRC64

[ChowDog 2]

I like the new sketches. I'm assuming the long-barreled version will have the same fold-over cheek rest that the short barreled version has?

 

I like the carrying handle. Is it going to be an AR-15 carrying handle or a proprietary one? Obviously an AR carry handle would make the gun more flexible in terms of kitting it out.

 

Quick question: will the bullpup conversion stock allow for the use of a barrel shroud like the ones Mississippi Auto Arms and other vendors offer? I think that's something that should be considered if it not currently in the cards.

 

Otherwise, I like that new foreward grip. It's a cool mix between the AUG and the QBZ-95 foreward grip.

 

Keep up the good work. I think it's coming along great!

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Second scetches look WAY better. Make it require cutting the tang, Everyone should thank you, LOP on a bullpup isn't your friend. Has enough rail to be useful without being overkill. Account for users wanting to use a magwell, its the natural progression.

 

He's on the right track. I would love to see him incorporate some of this design on his SKS prototype.

 

I'm planning on doing a bullpup SKS(birthday present for a good friend who served with me in the marines), and that barrel IS getting chopped to either 16" of whatever makes the full 26" required for legal length. His current design would make this goal unusual at best(extends too far foward). It will recieve the same attention as any of my guns.

 

Edit to add: Just checked his website again. Great to see him directly guaging his market in a head on fasion like this.

[Bvamp 604]

Bernie is supposed to test fire his design again this weekend, but at my suggestion - with 3" cannon rounds The buttplate being similar in size to "the beast" 's AMD65 butt, I suspect Bernie may take another look at the butt after he shoots it again this weekend.

 

As for the trigger, Ill check with Bernie if that detail is ok for public release.

[Caspian 32]

any chance of an effective deflector that won't hinder extraction/ejection for us lefties? Aside from the FS2000 (which i have) all i can do is gawk at bullpups and dream.

 

caspian

[Caspian 32]

Sales would double if he labeled the switches as follows:

 

[BpS12 512]

"I'd be interested to know just how you're going to get that big Harley up on the high dive, er, get the trigger pull from way out in front of the bolt back to the AK fire control group. Electrically?"

 

I use a length of coated cable, works great.

 

"Functionally, the ergonomics are off. The grips are too close together, the front is too far back, and the right is too far forward. Consider custom mags that cant backwards instead of forwards so you can move the pistol grip back."

 

Sorry, incorrect. ESP for the Shorty. Shouldering the Bullpup is akin to shouldering a pistol with the rifle butt extension. It CAN and HAS been shot without the off hand even on the gun(and that's on a Bullpupped S12 w/ 19" barrel and 3" flash supressor). Target reacquisition is a bit slow though, lol.

The reason I mentioned full P-rails on the longer version is for placement of a foregrip, where ever you feel comfy. As for "custom mags", no need, his is further forward than mine, and I've seen a few that may have been even further back. If that's not enough for you, go for the Magwell, problem solved.

 

"Bernie is supposed to test fire his design again this weekend, but at my suggestion - with 3" cannon rounds The buttplate being similar in size to "the beast" 's AMD65 butt, I suspect Bernie may take another look at the butt after he shoots it again this weekend."

 

 

Might I recommend a slip on butt pad? Works great for summer/light clothing shooting and can be removed for winter/heavy coat season. His is essentially the same as the K-Var/CFS butt, so I would guess a medium would work.

 

"any chance of an effective deflector that won't hinder extraction/ejection for us lefties? Aside from the FS2000 (which i have) all i can do is gawk at bullpups and dream."

 

My S12 tends to throw the spent casings out to the right and well forward. YOurs may vary. The biggest issue you'll have is the Charging handle gapping your teeth. But I think I can fix that too. How bout a cover that slides onto your optic rest and has a U shaped slide under it(w/ a handle on the left side) that hooks into a notch on your now, cut off, charging handle just enough to push it back. It would be non-reciprocating and sit forward of the ejection port when not in use. Also the cover would extend out and over the cut handle as a cheek plate just behind the ejection port back to the end of the receiver cover. Any thoughts?

[Sumsky 115]

Here is a sketching that Bernie has made based on some suggestions here....check his site for other sketches and a thank you note.

I like this new sketch. Whats that thing hanging under the stock.