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Hello! New member, definitely NOT new to firearms, as per my username...after reading much information on this site...why would I buy one of these? It seems like they are jam-o-matics and they hardly function using simple 12 gauge loads...don't get me wrong, I DESPERATELY want one...but I am a bit frightened by what I read. I don't want a vodka special. If I was to get one, I would M1911 it repeatedly, then clear a 42 round magazine from my MSAR...if I shell out 4-600 for a gun it had better work!!

 

 

I was VERY gung-ho and excited about getting one...but now I am just not so sure. I am poised to get a GR100 Saiga 12, but I can't find anything out about that designation either...advice good people?

Edited by MSARGuy
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Yes, don't get one.

 

These guns are an excellent design that has been hampered by a government mandated redesign when they come into the USA. That redesign has been known to cause some problems. Those problems have been thoroughly addressed by this forum, and if you have honestly spent some time reading here, you would know that. Or did you just read one post by a noob that has experienced a jam? Here a lot of man-hours have been invested in making this one of the finest combat style autoloading shotguns in the world.

 

Coming here and bragging about your AUG copy and calling the gun a "Jam-O-Matic" is sure a piss-poor way of introducing yourself. Why not take a step back and try again?

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If you are the type of person who gets really PO'd when a new gun doesn't function 100% out of the box then the Saiga 12 is not for you. These are great guns but they do require a "can-do" attitude when it comes to getting them the way you want em.

 

That being said, welcome to the forum; I hope you find what you're looking for.

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If you want a true tactical build that functions 100% out of the box with practically any 12 gauge ammo, I build them. They are available for $1,650, and they are fully guaranteed to perform as advertised.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcb7gVe25yw

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

With best regards,

 

Michael Rogers

Lone Star Arms

2501 Baylor SE

Albuquerque, NM 87106

505-263-8822

lonestararms@yahoo.com

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Now that video shows it all. Although I have not tried the Winchester Universal, why ask for problems, my s12 functions similar to that. I don't know why prople have so many problems with the information contained on this site or is it they just find this site after they have the problems; but if you follow the advice here about breaking in the gun and the correct ammo to use during break in you are probably not going to have a problem. (also note which magazines are prefered over others and why). Furthermore if in the stock configuration if you do have a problem they are warrentied by another forum member (who's name I won't butcher). If you buy a converted gun...well that is something you have to ask about. I have been so thrilled with my s12 I bought a 7.62x39 saiga...most people here have more than one saiga if that tells you anything.

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Yes, don't get one.

 

These guns are an excellent design that has been hampered by a government mandated redesign when they come into the USA. That redesign has been known to cause some problems. Those problems have been thoroughly addressed by this forum, and if you have honestly spent some time reading here, you would know that. Or did you just read one post by a noob that has experienced a jam? Here a lot of man-hours have been invested in making this one of the finest combat style autoloading shotguns in the world.

 

Coming here and bragging about your AUG copy and calling the gun a "Jam-O-Matic" is sure a piss-poor way of introducing yourself. Why not take a step back and try again?

 

 

AUG Copy is fairly a rude way of describing my improvement over the previous design, sir. MSAR > Aug. I assure you. I have read every single stickied thread, and no, I am not a very mechanically inclined person. I believe a gun should function out of the box, excuse me for such a theory. A Hi-point does. I understand this gun has been Democratted however that is beside the point. If I want this gun from what I can understand I can spend an F-ton of money improving it, or I can hope that maybe it has the right number of gas-ports to begin with, or I can take a file, hammer, and whatever else I find and bang on the gun til it magickally works. Not that I won't try it, but as I said I am not a mechanist.

 

When a buddy of mine spends 1200 bucks for his Saiga that is supposed to be very reliable and well done and it still jams, yeah, I am going to call it a Jam-O-Matic. Least I didn't call it the 12 gauge Chauchat. :D

 

Plus from what I can understand you can hardly swap out the foregrip without upsetting this powderpuff shotgun.

 

That is the gist of what I've read on this wonderful forum. It seems it is so random and redonk how bad the QC on this gun is. That isn't a problem with Democrats, that is a problem with RAA. If the guns are that ill, they should custom work on them before they EVER leave the distributer. In my Lab, if my QC was this shoddy, I'd have dead patients everywhere and a nice fat lawsuit in CLIA violation. Naw-meang?!

 

All seriousness though, I wanted to know if the problems have been overstated and focused on more than their reliability and epicness. That was all I wanted to know. I will prolly get one anyway, and try to church it up. I'll be able to hawk it for 1000 anyway. What is 430 bucks when you can dress it up and resell at profit. Hopefully it'll perform wonderfully, but like I said, the stickies on this site have scared me. Especially the Vodka Special one. I don't have a massive machine shop to dump endless resources into a terminal patient.

 

That's whats up.

Edited by MSARGuy
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Saiga 12 was designed as a heavy duty combat shotgun. It's meant to spit out buckshot and slugs and it does it just great, right out of the box. It's not really meant to shoot shitty Walmart bulk target loads, but with a little time and effort, it does even that just fine. After I installed a $30 Gunfixers Gas Plus and broke her in with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads, my converted S12 can spit out Federal bulk target loads all day long, without malfunctions. This gun is truly the best semi-auto shotgun out there.

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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Saiga 12 was designed as a heavy duty combat shotgun. It's meant to spit out buckshot and slugs and it does it just great, right out of the box. It's not really meant to shoot shitty Walmart bulk target loads, but with a little time and effort, it does even that just fine. After I installed a $30 Gunfixers Gas Plus and broke her in with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads, my converted S12 can spit out Federal bulk target loads all day long, without malfunctions. This gun is truly the best semi-auto shotgun out there.

 

 

That is what I was looking for, but again that doesn't sound like the norm. How much work did it require to spit out Federal bulk? I hate Winchester, they suck, my Norinco 1887 won't even cycle Winchester. Federal no problem, but Winchester sucks! I thought they warrantied the gun to shoot Federal bulk?

 

Appreciate it Spetsnaz.

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I haven't had my S12 an entire week yet and have over 300 rounds through it. It cycled Federal Bulk with a few FTE out of box. Converted it a few days ago, polished the bolt and hammer while converting. Went to the range this morning, went through 3 boxes of Federal Bulk not one FTE with my Surefire 12 rounders. I can't wait till my MD drum comes.

 

Just get one you won't regret it.

Edited by chupa
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Saiga 12 was designed as a heavy duty combat shotgun. It's meant to spit out buckshot and slugs and it does it just great, right out of the box. It's not really meant to shoot shitty Walmart bulk target loads, but with a little time and effort, it does even that just fine. After I installed a $30 Gunfixers Gas Plus and broke her in with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads, my converted S12 can spit out Federal bulk target loads all day long, without malfunctions. This gun is truly the best semi-auto shotgun out there.

 

 

That is what I was looking for, but again that doesn't sound like the norm. How much work did it require to spit out Federal bulk? I hate Winchester, they suck, my Norinco 1887 won't even cycle Winchester. Federal no problem, but Winchester sucks! I thought they warrantied the gun to shoot Federal bulk?

 

Appreciate it Spetsnaz.

 

I'd say that is about the norm. Look what the S12 was designed to do and look at what we ask it to do, two different things. They aren't "warrantied" to shoot Federal per say, that's just kind of become the standard. The exact things which are warrantied could best be explained by Bvamp or VanKiller (the guys who run Cadiz Gun Works, the U.S. warranty folks). Take it to the range, put a couple hundred rounds through it (which you want to do anyway), convert it back to the way it was designed to run and you have an awesome weapon system with amazing tolerances and is good to go.

 

Be warned tough, they're a tinkerer's dream and can become addictive.

 

Hope it helps and best of luck to you either way.

 

Eric

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Saiga 12 was designed as a heavy duty combat shotgun. It's meant to spit out buckshot and slugs and it does it just great, right out of the box. It's not really meant to shoot shitty Walmart bulk target loads, but with a little time and effort, it does even that just fine. After I installed a $30 Gunfixers Gas Plus and broke her in with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads, my converted S12 can spit out Federal bulk target loads all day long, without malfunctions. This gun is truly the best semi-auto shotgun out there.

 

 

That is what I was looking for, but again that doesn't sound like the norm. How much work did it require to spit out Federal bulk? I hate Winchester, they suck, my Norinco 1887 won't even cycle Winchester. Federal no problem, but Winchester sucks! I thought they warrantied the gun to shoot Federal bulk?

 

Appreciate it Spetsnaz.

 

I'd say that is about the norm. Look what the S12 was designed to do and look at what we ask it to do, two different things. They aren't "warrantied" to shoot Federal per say, that's just kind of become the standard. The exact things which are warrantied could best be explained by Bvamp or VanKiller (the guys who run Cadiz Gun Works, the U.S. warranty folks). Take it to the range, put a couple hundred rounds through it (which you want to do anyway), convert it back to the way it was designed to run and you have an awesome weapon system with amazing tolerances and is good to go.

 

Be warned tough, they're a tinkerer's dream and can become addictive.

 

Hope it helps and best of luck to you either way.

 

Eric

 

 

Awesome, that is good to know. Thanks for the help fellas, you've made me feel a lot better about it.

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Hello! New member, definitely NOT new to firearms, as per my username...after reading much information on this site...why would I buy one of these? It seems like they are jam-o-matics and they hardly function using simple 12 gauge loads...don't get me wrong, I DESPERATELY want one...but I am a bit frightened by what I read. I don't want a vodka special. If I was to get one, I would M1911 it repeatedly, then clear a 42 round magazine from my MSAR...if I shell out 4-600 for a gun it had better work!!

 

 

I was VERY gung-ho and excited about getting one...but now I am just not so sure. I am poised to get a GR100 Saiga 12, but I can't find anything out about that designation either...advice good people?

Here's my Jam-o-matic using Winchester Universal Bulk pack....

Check it out and report back.

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Hello! New member, definitely NOT new to firearms, as per my username...after reading much information on this site...why would I buy one of these? It seems like they are jam-o-matics and they hardly function using simple 12 gauge loads...don't get me wrong, I DESPERATELY want one...but I am a bit frightened by what I read. I don't want a vodka special. If I was to get one, I would M1911 it repeatedly, then clear a 42 round magazine from my MSAR...if I shell out 4-600 for a gun it had better work!!

 

 

I was VERY gung-ho and excited about getting one...but now I am just not so sure. I am poised to get a GR100 Saiga 12, but I can't find anything out about that designation either...advice good people?

Here's my Jam-o-matic using Winchester Universal Bulk pack....

Check it out and report back.

 

 

Nice. How much work you have into that gun to do it? Even the comment on the youtube page says this:

 

123karismith "

Dude! what did you do to your S-12 to make it run Win. Univ. My S-12 is a ***jam-o-matic*** with yhat same ammo! Share your secret. 1 week ago "

 

Reported back. Nice gun BTW.

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FWIW, here's a little more practical clip of my Saiga-12's performance, post-customization by Lone Star Arms...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQU37GG6-Q

 

That's my baby, flawlessly cycling Federal birdshot on factory gas setting 1. :wub:

 

If you provide the S-12, the cost is ~$850 for a gun so refined in performance and reliability that you could use it in competition. Mike's work is second-to-none and in some respects unique.

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I think I've seen you reference his work in other posts, and it is quite nice. 850 is more than I'd be willing to drop into the gun though, I might can do a lot myself...maybe.

 

Curious question though, if that is you in your display picture, why are you rocking the eye of Ra?

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I think I've seen you reference his work in other posts, and it is quite nice. 850 is more than I'd be willing to drop into the gun though, I might can do a lot myself...maybe.

 

Curious question though, if that is you in your display picture, why are you rocking the eye of Ra?

 

Trust me, you probably can't do most of the custom work that Mike performs. ;)

 

That's not me in my avatar. You've never seen A Clockwork Orange? :huh:

 

aclockworkorange.jpg

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I didn't mean the custom work, just the reliability stuff I have seen on these forums. And wow, no I have never seen that movie...though with the pyramid and such it makes a lot more sense now. I kinda get the feeling this is yet another movie loaded with occult and esoteric symbolism. My, my, it is everywhere.

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AUG Copy is fairly a rude way of describing my improvement over the previous design, sir. MSAR > Aug. I assure you. I have read every single stickied thread, and no, I am not a very mechanically inclined person.

So you re-engineered the MSAR huh, that is amazing, specially for "not a very mechanically inclined person." It is a copy, that is beyond debate, by any rational person anyway.

 

But anyway, to address the presumed point of your post. I stand by my statement, "Don't buy one." It may need some tweaks and massaging to get it working 100% out the box, and as you yourself have said, you will not be happy with that! Better to spend more money and have one of our real pros set your gun up for you! But, you don't want to do that either...

 

If you fail to take my advice, that is your business. If you come back here whining, well I told you so.

 

Welcome to the forum!:lolol:

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AUG Copy is fairly a rude way of describing my improvement over the previous design, sir. MSAR > Aug. I assure you. I have read every single stickied thread, and no, I am not a very mechanically inclined person.

So you re-engineered the MSAR huh, that is amazing, specially for "not a very mechanically inclined person." It is a copy, that is beyond debate, by any rational person anyway.

 

But anyway, to address the presumed point of your post. I stand by my statement, "Don't buy one." It may need some tweaks and massaging to get it working 100% out the box, and as you yourself have said, you will not be happy with that! Better to spend more money and have one of our real pros set your gun up for you! But, you don't want to do that either...

 

If you fail to take my advice, that is your business. If you come back here whining, well I told you so.

 

Welcome to the forum!:lolol:

 

 

It is "my improvement over the original design" compact all that together and you have my individual rifle, smartass. I understand if you're pissed about not being able to afford one of these "copies". Go talk to Ratworx and see if they think it is just a cheap copy. Doesn't make it any less redonk on the range with my EOTech. Also if I want assistance I sure as hell won't be asking you. I'll ask one of the many other incredibly helpful people I have encountered on this forum, especially since they seem very generous and quick to assist.

 

I bought the one I'm getting namely just because you said I shouldn't. I'm obstinate like that. I don't have a problem tweaking anything. I just won't appreciate having a gun with one shitty gas vent, excuse me for expecting quality control. Some of us have to run 3 sets of quality control with EVERYTHING and are expected to be within .5 SD, but I wouldn't expect you to know what that means.

 

Also, the United Nations has no problem with your Spartan "come and take them" euphemism. I assure you, they WILL.

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Hello! New member, definitely NOT new to firearms, as per my username...after reading much information on this site...why would I buy one of these? It seems like they are jam-o-matics and they hardly function using simple 12 gauge loads...don't get me wrong, I DESPERATELY want one...but I am a bit frightened by what I read. I don't want a vodka special. If I was to get one, I would M1911 it repeatedly, then clear a 42 round magazine from my MSAR...if I shell out 4-600 for a gun it had better work!!

 

 

I was VERY gung-ho and excited about getting one...but now I am just not so sure. I am poised to get a GR100 Saiga 12, but I can't find anything out about that designation either...advice good people?

 

I think it's too easy to make too much out of the problems people have with their guns on this forum. There isn't any issue that can't be overcome. An S12 is what it is, and then after that it is what you make it. What it is NOT is a gun that is a fine tuned machine right out of the box, but the framework and the foundation is there for it to be BETTER than anything else of it's type that you can buy in this country. But you have to go from point A to point B first. You can have a Jam-o-matic if you want, or you can have one that runs flawlessly, or you can have anything in between. Part of it depends on how much money you want to spend and part of it is how much you want to do yourself. But most of it is just how much you want it. That's the beauty of these weapons, it's all up to you.

Edited by DogMan
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With what I paid for mine, I really won't have a problem taking a stab at working on this. I fitted all the Wilson combat parts into my Springfield fully loaded so maybe I can do this. Like I said, I'm not a very mechanically inclined person, but that M1911 runs no problem, so...maybe I can do this.

 

I appreciate the feedback DogMan, people like you are the reason I think I can make a go of this gun. The Jam-o-matics I have been referring to are the "Vodka Specials" anyway, and from what I can gather those aren't the most common Saiga 12 I could get. Yeah I will be pissed if I get a "Vodka Special" I ain't the guy that posted the sticky that had a machine shop to magickally fix all his problems. I'm just an underpaid immunohematologist who has been dicking with guns since I was 12, but the tutorials on here give me hope, even though there are some specifics I haven't been able to see step-by-step wise.

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AUG Copy is fairly a rude way of describing my improvement over the previous design, sir. MSAR > Aug. I assure you. I have read every single stickied thread, and no, I am not a very mechanically inclined person.

So you re-engineered the MSAR huh, that is amazing, specially for "not a very mechanically inclined person." It is a copy, that is beyond debate, by any rational person anyway.

 

But anyway, to address the presumed point of your post. I stand by my statement, "Don't buy one." It may need some tweaks and massaging to get it working 100% out the box, and as you yourself have said, you will not be happy with that! Better to spend more money and have one of our real pros set your gun up for you! But, you don't want to do that either...

 

If you fail to take my advice, that is your business. If you come back here whining, well I told you so.

 

Welcome to the forum!:lolol:

 

 

It is "my improvement over the original design" compact all that together and you have my individual rifle, smartass. I understand if you're pissed about not being able to afford one of these "copies". Go talk to Ratworx and see if they think it is just a cheap copy. Doesn't make it any less redonk on the range with my EOTech. Also if I want assistance I sure as hell won't be asking you. I'll ask one of the many other incredibly helpful people I have encountered on this forum, especially since they seem very generous and quick to assist.

 

I bought the one I'm getting namely just because you said I shouldn't. I'm obstinate like that. I don't have a problem tweaking anything. I just won't appreciate having a gun with one shitty gas vent, excuse me for expecting quality control. Some of us have to run 3 sets of quality control with EVERYTHING and are expected to be within .5 SD, but I wouldn't expect you to know what that means.

 

Also, the United Nations has no problem with your Spartan "come and take them" euphemism. I assure you, they WILL.

 

 

I think you let your ego get the best of you! Azrail told you something you didn't want to hear. Mainly that these guns may require a little or a lot of tinkering to function correctly and this may not be the gun for you since as you stated you aren't very mechanically inclined. I don't have a Saiga or S12 that doesn't have 30hrs of tinkering in it, and I have spent around a $1000.00 (gun+conversion parts) to convert each of them. If you plan on keeping your S12 in its stock unconverted form and plan on shooting slugs and buckshot there is a good chance it will work fine, if you plan on converting it be prepared to work or pay someone who will do it for you. Is it hard to convert? I don't think so but I am very mechanically inclined and enjoy the challenge almost as much as actually shooting it. Welcome to the forum!

Edited by NinerRider
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I didn't mean the custom work, just the reliability stuff I have seen on these forums. And wow, no I have never seen that movie...though with the pyramid and such it makes a lot more sense now. I kinda get the feeling this is yet another movie loaded with occult and esoteric symbolism. My, my, it is everywhere.

 

A clockwork orange is sort of a post-post-postmodern look at a possible future of society and the human condition regarding crime and violence, the criminals that do it, and the system that fixes or "cures" it. While it does have symbolism, Kubrick was one of the best directors of his time, and it, Full Metal Jacket, 2001, and Dr. Strangelove are must sees for any student of film. Eyes Wide Shut you can pass on; its only attributes are on the body of the female lead, and the book version of The Shining is better than the movie (although Jack Nicholson did a damn fine job; Steven King just did better)

 

As for the gun issue. I recently bought a Saiga, and more recently a used Benelli M4. Did not anticipate the Benelli. I like them both, just like I like my M1A and my FNAR that shoot the same caliber. The Benelli is only getting a mag tube extension for a mod, whereas the Saiga is getting the full retro AK look. My Saiga will chuck any heavy brass out of any mag all day long, and I get the occasional stovepipe from low brass bird, but it's getting better.

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Never have had an ftf fte with high brass and I have put close to 900 rounds of high brass through it. After break in 60 rounds high brass I shot 100 round fed. birdshot which my gun(and most other peoples) seems to like more than other value paks. 3 ftes. With the 700 lite brass rounds I have shot through it since then i have had 3 ftes. Last two times I have bought federal 100 round bird shot I have had zero fte-ftf. Even from the hip bump fire I had zero failures. It takes some time and tlc it will only function more reliably the more you shoot its.

 

Cost on creating a reliable S12

Gun Lube $5

Gun Cloth $5

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Hello! New member, definitely NOT new to firearms, as per my username...after reading much information on this site...why would I buy one of these? It seems like they are jam-o-matics and they hardly function using simple 12 gauge loads...don't get me wrong, I DESPERATELY want one...but I am a bit frightened by what I read. I don't want a vodka special. If I was to get one, I would M1911 it repeatedly, then clear a 42 round magazine from my MSAR...if I shell out 4-600 for a gun it had better work!!

 

 

I was VERY gung-ho and excited about getting one...but now I am just not so sure. I am poised to get a GR100 Saiga 12, but I can't find anything out about that designation either...advice good people?

Here's my Jam-o-matic using Winchester Universal Bulk pack....

Check it out and report back.

 

 

Nice. How much work you have into that gun to do it? Even the comment on the youtube page says this:

 

123karismith "

Dude! what did you do to your S-12 to make it run Win. Univ. My S-12 is a ***jam-o-matic*** with yhat same ammo! Share your secret. 1 week ago "

 

Reported back. Nice gun BTW.

 

I already had everything I needed to make it run, but I will list what I used.

 

Ridgid cordless drill

Dewalt Cobalt bit set

Hobby files

sandpaper

Wilton 360 vise

centerpunch

 

As condensed as I can make it....

a few hours of reading and posting on this wonderful resource, saiga12.com (thank all of you BTW)

say.... 2 hours of staring at the weapon and it's internals (with a 1000 yard stare going on, lol)

.... and maybe 6 hours of actual work on the weapon.

 

No Gunfixer plug, no reduced recoil springs, etc.

(nothing against them, I found ways to make things work without all of that)

 

Nearly everything I did was posted on this forum. Some of it I made up and some of it was given to me. If you study the weapon and remove the right metal in the right places.... they can run well. They are challenging and some need lots of work.... some don't, but when you can post a video of your weapon 'walking the walk'.... it is a great feeling. I didn't buy S12s because I thought they ran good.... I bought S12s because I have a passion for firearms and love a challenge. They can be very frustrating or very rewarding.... if you are stubborn and patient, it will most likely be rewarding. Good luck and welcome aboard.

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Woot. Sorry it took so long to get back, my state was sorta underwater. >.> Soooo, got the Saiga home, got out my dental pick and THREE VERY WELL FORMED HOLES! WOOT! So I did the conversion. I got ballsy and did it. Took about 8 hours, a lot of cursing and dremel work, and bam. I finished it, got it back together and took it to the range...all I can say is: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

 

I put about 200 rounds of high-brass 5 shot Remington through it flawlessly. Then about 100 bulk pack Federal with ONE failure to eject, and one failure to feed due to the case crumpling up.

 

For never having done any complex gun work aside from my Springfield...thank you all. You inspired me to undertake this epic endeavor and the ones that were supportive and explained that the problems have been overstated, I can NOT thank you enough. This gun is a whole lot of badassery. :wub:

 

I am officially in love. Now hopefully the 10 round AGP mags I ordered will work as well. Once I have some time off again I intend on polishing some of the internals for a smoother experience, and I have ordered several performance parts from Carolina Shooting Supply, which BTW has been a five star group of people.

 

Thanks all, photos when I get some time off!

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