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Front Sight Block ( FSB ) Swap / Removal Tutorial


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#31 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:10 PM


I don't have a problem keeping rust out of mine with corrosive ammo. It's kind of a pain in the ass, and takes a little more effort since mine cannot unscrew, but it does keep clean. Just takes a little more effort and concentrated spraying if it is permanently attached.


How do you know it's not rusting like crazy inside the expansion chamber? Do you shoot surplus ammo? Could you give me any tips on how to clean mine if I have it permanently installed?

Thanks!


I don't know for certain that it's not, but I give that brake a hell of a douching with windex so hopefully little, if any, salt remains. I don't really have any specific pointers, just a good wash down of anywhere in the gun forward of the bolt carrier with water.
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#32 man-at-arms

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 02:08 AM



I don't have a problem keeping rust out of mine with corrosive ammo. It's kind of a pain in the ass, and takes a little more effort since mine cannot unscrew, but it does keep clean. Just takes a little more effort and concentrated spraying if it is permanently attached.


How do you know it's not rusting like crazy inside the expansion chamber? Do you shoot surplus ammo? Could you give me any tips on how to clean mine if I have it permanently installed?

Thanks!


I don't know for certain that it's not, but I give that brake a hell of a douching with windex so hopefully little, if any, salt remains. I don't really have any specific pointers, just a good wash down of anywhere in the gun forward of the bolt carrier with water.


Thanks!

#33 AZG

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 02:14 PM

Here you go



Dig your setup. Thanks for posting. It really helps out newbies like me figure this stuff out. As for my question(s),

:How did you put the ultimack on your rifle?

do you know of any links that have tutorial on how to remove gas tube and install the ultimack? Sorry not to seem lazy, just want to do it right the first time.


Does it even require a tutorial?
Thanks again

Greg

Edited by AZG, 21 July 2010 - 02:32 PM.

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#34 beefcakeb0

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 03:19 PM

:super: Thanks CK

#35 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:13 AM


Here you go



Dig your setup. Thanks for posting. It really helps out newbies like me figure this stuff out. As for my question(s),

:How did you put the ultimack on your rifle?

do you know of any links that have tutorial on how to remove gas tube and install the ultimack? Sorry not to seem lazy, just want to do it right the first time.


Does it even require a tutorial?
Thanks again

Greg


Thanks a lot for all the compliments guys.

Ultimak installation is easy, to remove the gas tube, just field strip the rifle (make sure the bolt carrier is removed) then using the slot on the factory cleaning kit, pair of pliers, or your fingers if it's not too stiff, tilt the lever on the right side of the rear sight block upwards and pull the gas tube out. To install the Ultimak it will just slip right into place and then the 2 brackets provided with it just get screwed in, it clamps to the barrel and then you just close the lever again. I would recommend using blue loctite on the clamp screws for the Ultimak.
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#36 AZG

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 05:29 PM



Here you go



Dig your setup. Thanks for posting. It really helps out newbies like me figure this stuff out. As for my question(s),

:How did you put the ultimack on your rifle?

do you know of any links that have tutorial on how to remove gas tube and install the ultimack? Sorry not to seem lazy, just want to do it right the first time.


Does it even require a tutorial?
Thanks again

Greg


Thanks a lot for all the compliments guys.

Ultimak installation is easy, to remove the gas tube, just field strip the rifle (make sure the bolt carrier is removed) then using the slot on the factory cleaning kit, pair of pliers, or your fingers if it's not too stiff, tilt the lever on the right side of the rear sight block upwards and pull the gas tube out. To install the Ultimak it will just slip right into place and then the 2 brackets provided with it just get screwed in, it clamps to the barrel and then you just close the lever again. I would recommend using blue loctite on the clamp screws for the Ultimak.


Right on! thanks for the reply. I bought a 7.62x39 that didnt come with a booklet, cleaning kit, or anything really last week and so I was clueless until my sporter x39 got here yesterday with the manual. Did some reading and know exactly what to do now. I appreciate your help.

Thanks
AZG

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#37 Gun Nut

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:12 PM

Hey AZG, where in 123 AZ are you. I am in CG.

CK: On the original FSB, does the barrel stop at the muzzle tube/ FSB joint or does it go all the way through? I am afraid to cut too deep into the muzzle tube and damage the barrel. If you have any pics of the barrel after it is removed, that would be greatly appreciated.





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#38 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:29 PM

Hey AZG, where in 123 AZ are you. I am in CG.

CK: On the original FSB, does the barrel stop at the muzzle tube/ FSB joint or does it go all the way through? I am afraid to cut too deep into the muzzle tube and damage the barrel. If you have any pics of the barrel after it is removed, that would be greatly appreciated.


Yes, if you grind too deep you will cut into the barrel as it runs through both the block and shroud. The first two pictures show the barrel and can see a slight "kiss" at the edges. I have done 2 more since then and with a little practice, I did one that barely left any scratches on the barrel underneath at all. The best thing to do is just go very slow, cut a small line through and every couple passes, smack it with a hammer to see if it's ready to move yet. A little "kiss" on the barrel is fine but yeah big grooves would probably be very bad.

I normally use the Dremel re-inforced cut off wheels, however, I did one with the thin ceramic cutoff wheels, they wear out much faster than the re-inforced ones so you'll need a bunch more, but having the thinner wheel also helps to reduce the size of any incisions you make on the barrel (if any).

Alternatively, the dimples are what actually hold it on. If you have a hydraulic press, you can drill into the dimples, then try and press, rinse and repeat though that also runs a risk of drilling too deep so either way, gotta be cautious and go slow is all. For the drill/press removal method there is a good thread in the Conversion forum of a guy who did his conversion that way.
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#39 AZG

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 09:50 AM

Hey AZG, where in 123 AZ are you. I am in CG.

CK: On the original FSB, does the barrel stop at the muzzle tube/ FSB joint or does it go all the way through? I am afraid to cut too deep into the muzzle tube and damage the barrel. If you have any pics of the barrel after it is removed, that would be greatly appreciated.


CG=Casa Grande? not too familiar with phoenix area. Im near the parker area.

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#40 Regal

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 07:02 PM


Hey AZG, where in 123 AZ are you. I am in CG.

CK: On the original FSB, does the barrel stop at the muzzle tube/ FSB joint or does it go all the way through? I am afraid to cut too deep into the muzzle tube and damage the barrel. If you have any pics of the barrel after it is removed, that would be greatly appreciated.


CG=Casa Grande? not too familiar with phoenix area. Im near the parker area.



I like how you replaced the FSB bu not the GB, it seems the GB is the last remaining peice for a full conversion out of the realm of the average tinkerer and yours looks great with the factory handgard + ultimak.

One thing I want to make sure I understand is that the pins are in grooves cut into the barrel woth the drill or du the just hold on the new FSB by fiction?

#41 chosenasaiga

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:01 PM

Should be a sticky!

#42 mcmar

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:06 AM


I don't have a problem keeping rust out of mine with corrosive ammo. It's kind of a pain in the ass, and takes a little more effort since mine cannot unscrew, but it does keep clean. Just takes a little more effort and concentrated spraying if it is permanently attached.


How do you know it's not rusting like crazy inside the expansion chamber? Do you shoot surplus ammo? Could you give me any tips on how to clean mine if I have it permanently installed?

Thanks!

Why do you need to weld your muzzle brake on your FSB? where you live? Do i need to weld my muzzle brake into my FSB too like yours coz, i live in illinois?

Edited by mcmar, 16 November 2010 - 12:08 AM.


#43 cobravenom39

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 11:45 PM

I just don't know about this method, wouldn't you want to drill through the dimples with the proper sized drill bit to give natches in the barrel for the FSB pins?
Then you dremel off the FSB, and you would be guaranteed to line up the new FSB because using actual pins they would only go thru where the slots are? Am I nuts thinking this?


I like this idea. My question is, are the Bulgarian and the Saiga FSB's the same length? It looks like the Saiga FSB is a little longer... of course I don't have a Bulgy to compare it to, however. What size is the bit to drill through? 3/32?

Edited by cobravenom39, 27 November 2010 - 11:44 AM.


#44 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 08:02 PM



I don't have a problem keeping rust out of mine with corrosive ammo. It's kind of a pain in the ass, and takes a little more effort since mine cannot unscrew, but it does keep clean. Just takes a little more effort and concentrated spraying if it is permanently attached.


How do you know it's not rusting like crazy inside the expansion chamber? Do you shoot surplus ammo? Could you give me any tips on how to clean mine if I have it permanently installed?

Thanks!

Why do you need to weld your muzzle brake on your FSB? where you live? Do i need to weld my muzzle brake into my FSB too like yours coz, i live in illinois?


I had to weld the brake on due to my state's laws, you would not need to do that in IL.
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#45 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 08:05 PM




I just don't know about this method, wouldn't you want to drill through the dimples with the proper sized drill bit to give natches in the barrel for the FSB pins?
Then you dremel off the FSB, and you would be guaranteed to line up the new FSB because using actual pins they would only go thru where the slots are? Am I nuts thinking this?


I like this idea. My question is, are the Bulgarian and the Saiga FSB's the same length? It looks like the Saiga FSB is a little longer... of course I don't have a Bulgy to compare it to, however. What size is the bit to drill through? 3/32?


yes, the Saiga FSB is just slightly longer than the Bulgarian FSB. You can either ram the Bulgarian flush and touch up paint at the back, or ram the Bulgarian block flush with the rear of where the Saiga's FSB was, either way works.

I use 1/8 bits for pins now, this rifle I did with a 3/32 and my other I used 1/8.

Alternatively to cutting the block off, yeah you could drill out the dimples and press off the FSB. However I have never done that method so I am not sure on the specifics of what size to use, etc.
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#46 ESSOHBE

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:31 PM

Thanks for sticky'n this. I just did mine and should probably contribute w/ pics I took...


Basically, you need patience first. You aren't going to hack through this real fast or else your going to cut the shit out of your barrel. I took my time and still thought I had cut into my barrel bad but as soon as I popped the FSB off it was surprisingly a pretty damn good job I did. I also was going to cut the shroud off the end so I could betetr see where the barrel starts and the block ends but it doesn't really make a difference, just keep an eye on the end of the muzzle to check.

I went down one side right along the divets like Classy did, with a grinder to get through the bulk of the steel while being VERY carefull to check and check again the depth of the cut. Then I took a dremel cutting wheel and finished it with that. You want to cut almost through (leave like a 32nd" or 64th" of steel) and then I whacked it with a hammer like he said to - but I didn't use a sledge, just a regular hammer. The cut I made was deep enough to make a longitudinal fracture along itself.

Posted Image



This is not enough though, to only cut one side, because it won't budge unless you get the dimples on the other side drilled out or cut through. I decided to just drill them on the other side like I should've done in the first place on the first. Then I cut between them with the grinder (AGAIN taking care to not go too deep) and whacked it, this time it spun free.

Posted Image



The holes go farther into the barrel than I expected so I didn't feel that bad about knicking the barrel a tad with the dremel. You don't even see it once you put the new FSB on anyway, and the Bulgy ones are almost as long as the Russian ones, mine was maybe a quarter" shorter. Not a big deal.

Posted Image



Here's another veiw, it's the other side I cut along w/ the grinder and dremel first.
Posted Image




MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS: Wrap your rifle in tinfoil if you are using the grinder because sparks fly everywhere. Usually I cut pipe @ work and am not used to being clean about it, but I had a rag at first covering the barrel from melted pieces of metal flinging everywhere and it caught on fire. If you care about your barrel being pretty, wrap it up!

Posted Image

Also, protect your crown. I stuck a patch-jig-thingy in mine with an oversized patch to plug the barrel and help protect the crown, especially while pounding the new sightblock on.

I took a string and indexed my front sight with the rear just as Classy says, (worked pretty good actually) and then I put the stock on and adjusted it with a RUBBER mallet tapping it slightly to get it perfect while leveling the rifle and looking down the irons.


BTW, cutting oil and WD-40 for the FSB is your friend!


QUESTION:
I haven't put my pins in yet, I have a Bulgy FSB and it pins in with 2 pins. Before I do it, I should use the closest size smaller to the pin to drill the barrel with, right? So it will be real tight when I drive them in? Won't it be loose if I use the same size bit that the pins are?

EDIT: What's in between 3/32 and 1/8 - it's 7/64? Whatever it is, that's what I used. Very tricky to drill into the side of a round barrel on that kind of angle but keept he drill plumbed up and you should get it perfect like I did in the first pin. The second went a little goofy but not too bad. Just use a hammer and punch to drive the pins in. DONE.

Edited by Kalashniklown, 05 December 2010 - 03:03 PM.

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#47 Mullet Man

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:49 PM

Great post CK. I just picked up two Bulgy FSB and zig zag brakes (one for the IZ132 and one for the 240). Gonne be attempting this in the near future

All the rest of the guys adding info/tips and pics along the way, is a great help too! :super:

Edited by Mullet Man, 06 December 2010 - 07:50 PM.

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#48 Classy Kalashnikov

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:55 PM

Awesome! Great pics Kalashniklown thanks for adding.

Before I do it, I should use the closest size smaller to the pin to drill the barrel with, right? So it will be real tight when I drive them in? Won't it be loose if I use the same size bit that the pins are?


It all depends what you use for pins. When using hard steel pins, you want them to be slightly larger than the hole, as pins of the same size will be loose. Also, holes drilled with a hand drill, even extremely neat ones, are slightly tapered with the top of the hole being wider, due to the drill wobbling during drilling. By tapered I mean on a .001" scale, not enough to see but enough that the pins will be loose.

That is why I like to use soft steel, like nails or steel rods from Home Depot/Lowes, since they are soft, you can buy ones the same size as the hole, pound them in and then peen them with a hammer, they will bulge and swell inside the hole and that point, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Edited by Classy Kalashnikov, 06 December 2010 - 09:59 PM.

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#49 ESSOHBE

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:47 PM

When using hard steel pins, you want them to be slightly larger than the hole, as pins of the same size will be loose.


Yea, that's what I figured. I do things like this on other stuff so I assumed this wouldn't be any differnt. It's the contour of the barrel that got me concerned.

I drove hard steel (HARD) pins in it that came with the FSB I got (probably from Bulgy factory then). The punch I used even mushroomed a little on the end from tapping these things in, lol.

They aren't going anywhere, and I even attempted to stake them on with a center-punch but really they aren't ever going to come out again. Might still be a good idea for anyone else...


Thanks again for this thread.

Edited by Kalashniklown, 06 December 2010 - 10:48 PM.

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#50 sharkforce

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 01:58 AM

can you explain a little more about what the indexing process is? i have my new frontsight block installed and it looks pretty straight on vertical. is there much more to it?
i still need to pin or nail it in place, meaning i need to drill out the barrel correct? The holes in the fsb are already drilled but the barrel is not groved or drilled out in those spots. should i shoot it first before that?
http://img703.images...497l.jpg/<br />

Edited by sharkforce, 10 January 2011 - 07:35 PM.


#51 ESSOHBE

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 10:42 PM

Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.

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#52 Zeroselect

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 08:06 AM

I totally forgot to post but my FSB had no holes for the pins like everyone else. Mine has a tapped hole at the bottom of the FSB in the middle of the threaded area which is threaded to accept a hold down screw. I ended up mouhting the FSB where i wanted then drilling partially into the barrel and making my own set screw then put the muzzle brake that will not let the screw back out.

Anyone else have one like this?

Edited by Zeroselect, 13 January 2011 - 08:07 AM.


#53 sharkforce

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 03:55 PM

Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.


alright but let me ask again, can i shoot it before pinning the fsb on the barrel? will it come loose or something?

#54 Zeroselect

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Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:36 AM


Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.


alright but let me ask again, can i shoot it before pinning the fsb on the barrel? will it come loose or something?


Don't shoot it without securing it. Even though it will be very tight on there after shooting 2 magazines the barrel will get hot and the FSB will be loose. I had mine fly off and had to have a cease fire to have the range officer recover it.

Best bet is to get a laser bore sighter and get it as close as you can before pinning.

#55 sharkforce

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 04:08 AM



Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.


alright but let me ask again, can i shoot it before pinning the fsb on the barrel? will it come loose or something?


Don't shoot it without securing it. Even though it will be very tight on there after shooting 2 magazines the barrel will get hot and the FSB will be loose. I had mine fly off and had to have a cease fire to have the range officer recover it.

Best bet is to get a laser bore sighter and get it as close as you can before pinning.

alright then i will wait for my boresighter to arrive in the mail. :ded:

#56 sharkforce

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 03:16 PM

Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.


how hard is it to drill the barrel with a hand drill with the bulgarian fsb already drilled? I'm not sure how its going to be possible to keep the drill going straight with the curved barrel surface. :cryss:

Pictures:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

#57 Zeroselect

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 03:21 PM


Use a straightedge, a laser, or just string from the rear sight leaf to the front sight post (what I did). Get it PERFECT if you have to tap it lightly use a rubber mallet or a wrapped hammer and quadruple check looking down the sights. You can fine adjust the point of impact with the front sight post later with an AK frontsight-adjustment tool.

And, *some* Saigas have a weird cant slightly to the rear-sight. I don't know if it's a trunion issue or the sight-leaf itself but from the experiences of others, this apparently doesn't affect the point of impact of the bullet since the notch for lining up the rear sight post is straight anyway. If you have the new Legion ones imported just recently they should be straight anyway, as mine was.

Just slowly drill the barrel. You aren't going to get the correct size pin in the holes without removing the barrel material in the way, plus then the block can never slide out of place then as well.


how hard is it to drill the barrel with a hand drill with the bulgarian fsb already drilled? I'm not sure how its going to be possible to keep the drill going straight with the curved barrel surface. :cryss:

Mine is mounted totally different so no actual experience.

What you could do is get some white out and mark the barrel with the FSB in and then take off the fsb out and get a round file and start filing.

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#58 ESSOHBE

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:59 AM

My 5.45 was like your's is Sharkforce, like you said it won't be easy. I am very used to using different tools and drills so I got mine in with a regular hand drill but if you aren't comfortable then get someone with a machine or a drill press to stick it for you.

You could try to mark it like Zeroselect said but you'd have to know if you're filing it right and that isn't going to be easy to gauge by eye once the mark came off. At least with the block on you can see exactly where to drill and it will automatically be to depth.

You could index it and tack-weld it also but, yuk (<- my opinon although someone did that to a 7.62 I own now and it's not really that bad).

Really, just get to a drill press.

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#59 sharkforce

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 10:39 PM

holes drilled with drill press, DONE. that was seriously easy.now on the pinning part... i used soft nails and theyre fully in, however now the front sight is slightly canted to the left!!! :evil: what can i do theres no way i can get those nails out now.

#60 ESSOHBE

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 12:43 AM

Allot of AKs have canted sights, even some factory Saigas. How bad is it exactly? If it's only a little off you should be able to adjust the front sight post with an adjustment tool to get the sights on target. My 7.62 was canted ever-so-slightly and all I had to do was push the front sight post over about 1mm and it's good to go now.

If it's real bad, and I don't know how it could be, you could try the set-screw method set into a dimple drilled into the barrel under the sight block and stake it on when fully in/flush with the block.

You can also tack weld it. If you ever wanted it off again a little tack-weld shouldn't be easy to grind/drill out.

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