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dave43

Saiga M (21") .223 regret

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I bought a Saiga M around 2 years ago. They only had the 21" in stock. I haven't converted it yet but am having a little buyer's remorse that i didn't get the more compact 16". Tell me why I should be happy I got the longer barreled M. Maybe turn it into a Dragonuv like clone, but in .223?

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The longer barrel provides a higher velocity than the shorter one, and from what I understand, .223 loses a good bit of accuracy when velocity is decreased.

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There's nothing wrong with the longer barrel versions. If I were you I'd convert it then put a nice Russian scope and a skeleton stock on that bad boy. Saiganov Light 000.gif

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Geez!! Anybody can buy a 16" barrel Saiga! :haha:

Just kidding. I had the same feeling for a while when I got mine. I did do the Saiganov type conversion and I'm glad I did. Granted, in close quarters it would be a bit unwieldy but I can put some 2" groups downrange at 100 meters with reloads. Ain't nothing wrong with a POSP sight on it either. They were made to fit AK's after all.

Edited by pogy

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I waited three months for a 21inch before I settled on my 16 (they could not be found at the time). If I could go back I'd still want the 21 inch.

 

16 inch barrels are to stinking loud for me.

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Why do you think 20" AR barrels are still being manufactured as much as 16"? Because 20" are capable to launch the bullet at higher speeds. About 200-300 f/s faster. That means further reach and deadlier wounds as majority of .223 rounds are designed to brake apart with 10-15" of travel inside the flash

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Dont the marines only carry a 20 inch m16 ? They cant put a folding stock on like you can. I say you have the best of both worlds. You certainly are not loosing anything unless you are in CQB and have a fixed stock, and in that case you are only 1 inch worse off than a marine. This is to say there is no negative, that i see.

 

I wouldnt mind having a 20 inch 223 saiga to add to my collection.

 

Put an ace folder on it and your good to go.

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I thought the M's also had a thicker receiver like the VEPR's and that they are not making the M's anymore. I may be way off though.

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Can anyone list a place to pick up some parts to make it into a Saiganov? Also anyone have pics of their's?

 

I bought a Choate Mak-90/AK-47 kit and used a Dinzag lower handguard retainer. There's probably cheaper ways to go especially if you have machine shop access. I don't. This is a photo without the Choate lower and upper handguard attached. You could go this way if you like. The muzzle brake is not threaded but fastened with set screws. (Dinzag Arms, discontinued I believe) Bi-pod is a Harris and was attached with an Uncle Mike's sling stud.

I did add an MSA AR-15 Mag Adapter and the Choate forgrip parts after this photo. It still has the bipod on the new setup.

I used the G2 single hook trigger conversion like most folk.

post-4307-12735172027455_thumb.jpg

Edited by pogy

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it depends on the round you're using, and the purpose of the rifle- I agree with putting a folding stock on it, then your overall length would be similar to an M4 (since they can't have a folding stock, only collaspable)..

 

the standard 55gr FMJ round doesn't tumble/fragment well (which is what makes it more lethal) when below 2700fps.

With an M4 (14.5" barrel), this happens at around 60 yards! 20" is where the diminishing returns start- each inch beyond 20 only adds about 40-45fps, until about 26", then it really drops off (unless you're using slow powder on reloads)

 

If you're using heavier rounds, or hollow/soft points, then this becomes much less an issue.. which is why M4s typically have barrels with 1-in-7 twist (to stabilize heavier bullets)

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it depends on the round you're using, and the purpose of the rifle- I agree with putting a folding stock on it, then your overall length would be similar to an M4 (since they can't have a folding stock, only collaspable)..

 

the standard 55gr FMJ round doesn't tumble/fragment well (which is what makes it more lethal) when below 2700fps.

With an M4 (14.5" barrel), this happens at around 60 yards! 20" is where the diminishing returns start- each inch beyond 20 only adds about 40-45fps, until about 26", then it really drops off (unless you're using slow powder on reloads)

 

If you're using heavier rounds, or hollow/soft points, then this becomes much less an issue.. which is why M4s typically have barrels with 1-in-7 twist (to stabilize heavier bullets)

 

For the 1/9 rate the 55gr bullet is the best match. 62 will go as well, but nothing heavier that that. So here comes the compromise: lighter bullet and longer barrel

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I've always heard the 21" shoots worse than the 16" due to harmonics, but not positve, i'd say they shoot about the same. a scoped 16" with a good fitting gas tube(not too tight) and decent loose handgaurds should shoot 2-3 inches at 100m. anything shorter than 16" is too short for 5.56 (ie, M4) if the 20" had a heavy barrel i'd be all over that...

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I've always heard the 21" shoots worse than the 16" due to harmonics, but not positve, i'd say they shoot about the same. a scoped 16" with a good fitting gas tube(not too tight) and decent loose handgaurds should shoot 2-3 inches at 100m. anything shorter than 16" is too short for 5.56 (ie, M4) if the 20" had a heavy barrel i'd be all over that...

 

 

when comparing my shooting abilities using my 20" 223, vs Vulcan1600's 16" 223; i was getting similar groupings. I could feel the shot differences in the longer/shorter barrels too. I was using brown bear 62gr HP.

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One of the best things about guns is that if you have one that you don't want, you can always sell it.

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I bought one of each. My 20" out-shoots the 16" (both scoped). It could be BS, but I like to think the 20" allows for more complete and consistent powder burning for cheap ammo.

 

If you chop, go to 18" You get the size and the motion. lol

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I bought a Saiga M around 2 years ago. They only had the 21" in stock. I haven't converted it yet but am having a little buyer's remorse that i didn't get the more compact 16". Tell me why I should be happy I got the longer barreled M. Maybe turn it into a Dragonuv like clone, but in .223?

 

Hey, if you have REAL Saiga M (0,75 inch barrel), thumb hole stock and all this, and if you don't like it, I will purchase it from you.

Please, let me know if the barrel is HBAR (Vepr style) or normal rail thin saiga and if you want to sell it, how much you want for it?

 

D

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Dave43, do you have a micormeter to measure the thickness of the reciever? I would like to know if they are thicker. My 223 has the heavier barrel but is not a M model.

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I finally got me a 21 inch and find I really prefer it to the 16. Less muzzle blast, longer sight radius, higher velocity, shoots groups under 1 1/2 with a scope.

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