New SGL21 - Help Me Sight in Please

[Mofeen 0]

I have been posting a lot around here lately, and find all you ladies (there are a few, right? Haha) and gents to be so very helpful.

 

Anyhow, I have a new Saiga SGL21 that I got during the KVAR sale about 6 months ago. And when I say new, I mean that loosely. I have put around 800 rounds through it plinking and just having fun, mostly at the Lapeer pit.

 

It seems to be pretty accurate in my non target shooting, but I would like to get it really dialed in now that I am getting seriously into it, and may be taking a carbine class.

 

I finally have my front sight tool that I got from Midway, and I am ready to do some adjustments if necessary. My question for everyone is; how do I get this thing dialed in? I have read over various non-specific posts here and other forums, as well as watched some videos on YouTube. I think I have the general idea. Remember I am a rifle newb!!!!!

 

First off, does it matter for accuracy purposes if I use a tripod style shooting rest or a shooting rest bag? I don't mind spending up to $75 for one if I have to. (I was looking at this one; http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=228392 or this one http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=264776 ). Any better suggestions?

 

My next question was about the rear sight settings while sighting in. It seems like the consensus that from what I have read is that while sighting in at a 25 or 50 yard range, the rear sight should be set on the "1" setting. Apparently this will give you the proper setting for up to 100 yards? True? I also read that zeroing at 25 vs 50 yards should not make much of a difference if any at all in accuracy at 100 yards? Also, the battle setting will then be accurate all the way up to 300 yards for a man sized target?

 

Lastly, what type of paper target should I look for that is made especially for sighting in? Is this one OK http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=312978 ???

 

I am comfortable in the front sight tool and adjustments of the sight, but not the other aspects obviously.

 

Thanks so much guys. I know it seems like I am just regurgitating what I have researched, but I just wanted to post here because I wanted a consensus from all you guys here because you are so helpful. Thanks!!!!

[docfury 1]

1) Yeah id recommend getting at the very least a bipod to sight your rifle in, but one of those caldwell vices would work nicely.

 

2) Good job on getting the sight adjustment tool, which hopefully after you have it sighted in, you will never need again. I found when adjusting my sight that the factory notch cut into my front sight post was almost where it needed to be, just a slight adjustment. My TAPCO tool came with instructions, so I followed those, which is basically; Raise the front sight, lower point of impact, lower front sight, raise point of impact. Move drum to the left, move shots to the left, move drum right, move shots right (if looking down sight, if facing sight do reverse).

 

3)Rear sight; sight in at 25 yards/meters at the 100 yards/meters setting. This will establish your "battle zero" and you slide the sight all the way back. You should hit the bullseye at 25 and 100 yards on this setting, shoot a little high at 50 and be "minute of man" up to 300 yards.

 

4) As far as targets go, personal preference, I enjoy splash targets because they are easier to see at long distances (dirty bird, shoot-n-see)

[rifleshooter474 2]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

[BrutalGardener 205]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

+1. Definitely should practice shooting using the irons first.

[rifleshooter474 2]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

Edited May 14, 2010 by rifleshooter474

[chevyman097 2,579]

I think you are missing the point lol

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

Edited May 15, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[rifleshooter474 2]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

 

Russian troops had good results from Irons at up to and over 250m. Now are you saying Russians shoot better than Americans? Forget those MOA groupings a hit is a hit on a combat rifle. It removes an enemy from combat and may use up other resources aiding that man. As a half crippled half blind old man I can put 30 out of 30 shots inside an ten inch radius circle with most shots falling inside 5 inches at 100m. That is done standing with only a sling as an aide and a rifleman's cadence of one shot every three seconds. 30 yards indeed.

 

Get to an Appleseed for gods sake please.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Rhodes1968

[rifleshooter474 2]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

 

Russian troops had good results from Irons at up to and over 250m. Now are you saying Russians shoot better than Americans? Forget those MOA groupings a hit is a hit on a combat rifle. It removes an enemy from combat and may use up other resources aiding that man. As a half crippled half blind old man I can put 30 out of 30 shots inside an ten inch radius circle with most shots falling inside 5 inches at 100m. That is done standing with only a sling as an aide and a rifleman's cadence of one shot every three seconds. 30 yards indeed.

 

Get to an Appleseed for gods sake please.

 

I take it from your comments, you do not own any optic's.

[paprotective 362]

My local shop had the Caldwell 'bag' set for $29. Def. go with shoot-n-see targets (they make them in 2-12" size)

 

If you look around you can find a 8x11 25 meter target for AK's that simulates 100 yards..

 

PM on way with target for you.

 

Albert

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

 

Russian troops had good results from Irons at up to and over 250m. Now are you saying Russians shoot better than Americans? Forget those MOA groupings a hit is a hit on a combat rifle. It removes an enemy from combat and may use up other resources aiding that man. As a half crippled half blind old man I can put 30 out of 30 shots inside an ten inch radius circle with most shots falling inside 5 inches at 100m. That is done standing with only a sling as an aide and a rifleman's cadence of one shot every three seconds. 30 yards indeed.

 

Get to an Appleseed for gods sake please.

 

I take it from your comments, you do not own any optic's.

 

Heh lots of them, have a scout setup on an old lever Marlin 30-30( my newest toy Im deciding if its a keeper) and a nice scope on my Savage 308, and every 22cal gets one (target rifles). But then those are not MBRs. I have a box of old red dots Ive come into that I may just give away. There are hunting rifles, target rifles, and then there is THE rifle for when the crap none of us wants to happen does and who knows what that rifle may have to endure.

 

Sorry to sound like a snob but so many guys just slap a scope/dot on everything and this may not be the right thing to do. If i can get a few to realize that irons are actually superior in this particular application then Im happy. Not to mention they are lighter and when you lug that thing on your back for a few hours that matters lol.

 

Oh yeah no scopes on my pistols either, Im such a hard case

[rifleshooter474 2]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

 

Russian troops had good results from Irons at up to and over 250m. Now are you saying Russians shoot better than Americans? Forget those MOA groupings a hit is a hit on a combat rifle. It removes an enemy from combat and may use up other resources aiding that man. As a half crippled half blind old man I can put 30 out of 30 shots inside an ten inch radius circle with most shots falling inside 5 inches at 100m. That is done standing with only a sling as an aide and a rifleman's cadence of one shot every three seconds. 30 yards indeed.

 

Get to an Appleseed for gods sake please.

 

I take it from your comments, you do not own any optic's.

 

Heh lots of them, have a scout setup on an old lever Marlin 30-30( my newest toy Im deciding if its a keeper) and a nice scope on my Savage 308, and every 22cal gets one (target rifles). But then those are not MBRs. I have a box of old red dots Ive come into that I may just give away. There are hunting rifles, target rifles, and then there is THE rifle for when the crap none of us wants to happen does and who knows what that rifle may have to endure.

 

Sorry to sound like a snob but so many guys just slap a scope/dot on everything and this may not be the right thing to do. If i can get a few to realize that irons are actually superior in this particular application then Im happy. Not to mention they are lighter and when you lug that thing on your back for a few hours that matters lol.

 

Oh yeah no scopes on my pistols either, Im such a hard case

 

Now that we now know your a SCOPE expert Chris. Lets get back to OPTIC's for ARs&AKs like AIMPOINTs ACOGOs EO-Techs and yes a scope like the Russian PSOP. Any fool coming up against optic's using iron sights, I wish them luck, as they are going to need it.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

What really will help get better groups, is to get a quality optic for your rifle.

 

Perhaps.. but I think it's important to practice with factory irons to become as proficient with em as possible; as you don't want to become dependent on an optic, (which could break or fail relatively easily).

 

 

 

I would like to see posted how many times a ACOG AIMPOINT PSPO Russian Scope or EO-Tech. has failed.

 

I said "break or fail". Drop the rifle the wrong way and any of those scopes could be rendered unusable, unlike the irons. I just think that it's a good idea to develop some skill with the factory sights before deciding on an optic.

 

ymmv.

 

Nothing wrong with learning to use the iron sights on your AR or AKs, But it's been shown many can't do much using them, at over 30 yards shooting off hand.

 

Russian troops had good results from Irons at up to and over 250m. Now are you saying Russians shoot better than Americans? Forget those MOA groupings a hit is a hit on a combat rifle. It removes an enemy from combat and may use up other resources aiding that man. As a half crippled half blind old man I can put 30 out of 30 shots inside an ten inch radius circle with most shots falling inside 5 inches at 100m. That is done standing with only a sling as an aide and a rifleman's cadence of one shot every three seconds. 30 yards indeed.

 

Get to an Appleseed for gods sake please.

 

I take it from your comments, you do not own any optic's.

 

Heh lots of them, have a scout setup on an old lever Marlin 30-30( my newest toy Im deciding if its a keeper) and a nice scope on my Savage 308, and every 22cal gets one (target rifles). But then those are not MBRs. I have a box of old red dots Ive come into that I may just give away. There are hunting rifles, target rifles, and then there is THE rifle for when the crap none of us wants to happen does and who knows what that rifle may have to endure.

 

Sorry to sound like a snob but so many guys just slap a scope/dot on everything and this may not be the right thing to do. If i can get a few to realize that irons are actually superior in this particular application then Im happy. Not to mention they are lighter and when you lug that thing on your back for a few hours that matters lol.

 

Oh yeah no scopes on my pistols either, Im such a hard case

 

Now that we now know your a SCOPE expert Chris. Lets get back to OPTIC's for ARs&AKs like AIMPOINTs ACOGOs EO-Techs and yes a scope like the Russian PSOP. Any fool coming up against optic's using iron sights, I wish them luck, as they are going to need it.

 

Chris was the smiley face used not the name and I have never claimed to be an expert on scopes or anything else. I just spend a lot of time with this rifle in the field.

 

Lets see what happens after a couple months in the field, or the distinct possibility you miss the guy just out of view on that scope that's sighting you in. Scopes have as many drawbacks as advantages but good luck to you. This rifle is 2-300m MAX and that last 100m is pushing it. Beyond that is the territory of other type rounds and those distances are where a scope really shines. Now a good scout configuration does help that field of view problem but many dont like the extra weight on the forward half of the rifle. Then of course there is that pesky little problem of most combat occurring in less than 100m unless you are fool enough to tangle with someone out of your range but inside his.

 

BTW plenty of threads on optics out there or you just insecure enough not to tolerate an alternate opinion?

[saigalupo 1]

I agree with Post A and a few others. Practice and get good with iron sights then if you still want to be cool get an optic.

Its quite easy to hit targets at 100 yards with irons with an AK 47. I can hit torso sized targets at 400 yards with an

FAL all day long standing. A lot of people can hit man sized targets between 700-1000 yards with a damn WW2 M1.

Ive used an eotech on a AR I used to own and it was great, but I could make the same hits just as good with the irons.

 

They help but optics are no excuse for poor marksmanship and do not guarantee your saftey if you ever have to use your rifle

against another armed person. I pity the fool who thinks he can go against me that thinks hes safe and not get tagged in the chest because he has an eotech or aimpoint. If you cant hit a torso sized target between 50-100 yards with any rifle using irons you have bigger problems than which optic to choose from.

 

I own 1 scope and thats on a remington 700p, all others I use irons and to great affect.

Edited May 18, 2010 by saigalupo

[rifleshooter474 2]

I agree with AP and a few others. Practice and get good with iron sights then if you still want to be cool get an optic.

Its quite easy to hit targets at 100 yards with irons with an AK 47. I can hit torso sized targets at 400 yards with an

FAL all day long standing. A lot of people can hit man sized targets between 700-1000 yards with a damn WW2 M1.

Ive used an eotech on a AR I used to own and it was great, but I could make the same hits just as good with the irons.

 

They help but optics are no excuse for poor marksmanship and do not guarantee your saftey if you ever have to use your rifle

against another armed person. I pity the fool who thinks he can go against me that thinks hes safe and not get tagged in the chest because he has an eotech or aimpoint. If you cant hit a torso sized target between 50-100 yards with any rifle using irons you have bigger problems than which optic to choose from.

 

I own 1 scope and thats on a remington 700p, all others I use irons and to great affect.

 

Was that you I saw the other night on 24? If so your a really good shooter, I was impressed.

[saigalupo 1]

I agree with AP and a few others. Practice and get good with iron sights then if you still want to be cool get an optic.

Its quite easy to hit targets at 100 yards with irons with an AK 47. I can hit torso sized targets at 400 yards with an

FAL all day long standing. A lot of people can hit man sized targets between 700-1000 yards with a damn WW2 M1.

Ive used an eotech on a AR I used to own and it was great, but I could make the same hits just as good with the irons.

 

They help but optics are no excuse for poor marksmanship and do not guarantee your saftey if you ever have to use your rifle

against another armed person. I pity the fool who thinks he can go against me that thinks hes safe and not get tagged in the chest because he has an eotech or aimpoint. If you cant hit a torso sized target between 50-100 yards with any rifle using irons you have bigger problems than which optic to choose from.

 

I own 1 scope and thats on a remington 700p, all others I use irons and to great affect.

 

Was that you I saw the other night on 24? If so your a really good shooter, I was impressed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats not bragging just being real. Thats average shooting for somebody who knows what they are doing with a rifle.

You said many cant do well using iron sights at 30 yards... Are you talking about yourself?

Maybe you have really bad aim and need the help but I think many CAN do well at that range

with irons even newbs.

 

People should practice more and rely on technology less, thats where skill comes from.

Edited May 19, 2010 by saigalupo

[loki0629 55]

So back to the OP's questions...

 

Mofeen, using a rest or a bipod is fine as long as you understand that you are working out how accurate the rifle is by itself. If you dial the weapon in using that support system, it will change once you pick it up and use it without them. Maybe not by much, maybe by a lot, it really depends on you. I will use this on occasion to see how well my rifle groups with a certain brand or type of ammo. I'm not really looking to get hits, I just want groups.

 

Another option is to use the most stable firing position where it is just you supporting the rifle and dial in the sights from there. It can be prone, kneeling, or sitting, sling or no sling depending on your preference. Personally, this is how I adjust the sights on my weapons. I start at 25m prone with a sling and move it back from there.

 

Hope that helps.

[Mofeen 0]

1) Yeah id recommend getting at the very least a bipod to sight your rifle in, but one of those caldwell vices would work nicely.

 

2) Good job on getting the sight adjustment tool, which hopefully after you have it sighted in, you will never need again. I found when adjusting my sight that the factory notch cut into my front sight post was almost where it needed to be, just a slight adjustment. My TAPCO tool came with instructions, so I followed those, which is basically; Raise the front sight, lower point of impact, lower front sight, raise point of impact. Move drum to the left, move shots to the left, move drum right, move shots right (if looking down sight, if facing sight do reverse).

 

3)Rear sight; sight in at 25 yards/meters at the 100 yards/meters setting. This will establish your "battle zero" and you slide the sight all the way back. You should hit the bullseye at 25 and 100 yards on this setting, shoot a little high at 50 and be "minute of man" up to 300 yards.

 

4) As far as targets go, personal preference, I enjoy splash targets because they are easier to see at long distances (dirty bird, shoot-n-see)

 

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I will be going out this weekend to get it all set up!

 

I did have a question about the rear sight settings. I was under the impression that for a 25 yard zero, my rear sight should be on the "battle setting", not the 100 yard setting. Is this correct, or am I mistaken?

 

Thanks again.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

That is what I do Mofeen and it works also. At Battle setting I zero at 25y and then switch to setting 1 for the one hundred yard check and any final tweaking, so far I have not needed to change much after the BS zero so Im sure the 1 setting zero is not required to have a fairly good zero. Just work with what you have range wise and dont worry about it.

[Mofeen 0]

That is what I do Mofeen and it works also. At Battle setting I zero at 25y and then switch to setting 1 for the one hundred yard check and any final tweaking, so far I have not needed to change much after the BS zero so Im sure the 1 setting zero is not required to have a fairly good zero. Just work with what you have range wise and dont worry about it.

 

 

OK, so last and final question. I promise!

 

Once zeroed and finally shooting for fun at the range, what setting should I keep the rear sight elevation set at? Do you change it based on the distance you are shooting, or do you leave it alone once zeroed? Do I just keep it on the battle setting, and then just go based on the 7.62 trajectory chart, knowing that between 50 and 150m or so, I will range from 1.5-3in high?

 

Thanks.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Depends on the range of course. Under 100y, Battle setting, 100y + closest mark to the distance so 1 at 100 OR you can leave it on battle just to see the difference. Play with it, its your rifle there are many like it....

[Mofeen 0]

Depends on the range of course. Under 100y, Battle setting, 100y + closest mark to the distance so 1 at 100 OR you can leave it on battle just to see the difference. Play with it, its your rifle there are many like it....

 

 

Going to the range again. I might not be able to make it on the 100 yarder as it does get busy.

 

If I zero on the 25 yard range, is there a consensus as to what setting I should have the rear sight elevation set at? Seems some people say go with the "P", and others say go for the "1".

[jbrubaker 13]

Battle zero should not have the same point of impact as the "1" setting. Battle zero raises the rear sight to a zero somewhere between 200 and 300 meters so that at any range from muzzle to 300m your bullet will strike a man somewhere in the chest. At 100 yards, impact will be about five inches high, and at 300 about 6 inches low, but still mostly center mass and well within the size of a torso.

 

It's conceivable that your battle zero and "1" setting could yield similar groups due to the Saiga's 2-5 MOA performance (i.e. your POI at battle zero is close to your POI at "1" because your bullets are several MOA from your point of aim, thus closing the gap between the two different points of aim). You should definitely see a difference in three shot groups from 25 meters between the battle zero setting and the "1" setting.

 

Battle zero generally aims for a 12-16" diameter circle, so if a particular Saiga is shooting say 4 MOA, it might be difficult to distinguish between the zero and "1" settings at 100m and further out.

 

Am I incorrect on this? Somebody who knows more might want to jump in.

 

As to the OP's last question, I would leave it at "1". I like to know where my rifle is shooting. If you start to get closer to 200m, just adjust to the "2" setting. "1" is fine for pretty much anything out to 125m.