The problems just keep coming

[negev5021 25]

I have used this site to troubleshoot problem after problem with my Saiga 12. In the process I have:

 

Converted/restored

Tromix DIY trigger/FCG (reprofiled hammer)

Gunfxr plug

standard puck after twister puck

polished bolt/rails

 

after the typical FTE I opened up the gas ports 2 drill bits larger than the factory (3 hole)

actually felt confident that I had overcome the gas issues, and fixed the FTE, however now it appears I have failure to friggen feed! Surefire 12 round seems to FTF the most.

 

My research found that I can polish the feed ramp, but the problem seems to occur mostly in the first rounds, and is more reliable in the last 7 rounds of the 12, so I am beginning to think the mag may be the issue. I have read here that fully loaded mags may make the 1st round deform when on closed bolt, and that surefire followers have a different angle, etc - and don't want to focus on the rifle when I should focus on the mag.

 

So, are there known issues and fixes for the surefire 12 rounder? Can the bolt be slowed by the spring tension and I should cut the spring a coil? I hear the 10 rounders are more reliable, but the 12 rounds is a distinct advantage in 3 gun... 10 rounds not so much.

 

Any help would be appreciated -

 

I am also wondering if the hammer profile is incorrect, which does not cause FTE because the gun is so overgassed it powers through, but instead provides resistance on the return of the bolt.... don't know just thinking out loud - but it has been stated that the Tromix FCG hamer be reprofiled to look like the factory one - if the is the case why is the factory one considered dangerous and may cause slam/auto fire?

[arsenal-junkie 0]

honestly, i have heard bad things about surefire mags. I am no saiga expert what so ever, but i won't buy a surefire because the saiga experienced guys on the forum here talked me out of it, my gun had the same issues with the FTE problem when i got it, fixed the gas ports and it runs great. I only have my stock 5 round mag and a AGP 10 rounder, when i first used my 10 rounder it would not feed worth a crap either. I just pulled the spring out and oiled the inside of the mag and it works perfectly now.

 

i would try using other mags before you spend the money on other parts to fix the problem. If it will shoot fine with the stock mag than i would assume your surefire just sucks

 

hope someone else has some better advice for you bud

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

What size are your 3 ports?

 

Here are some pics of hammer comparison and a hammer I modified. I didn't get a final pic of the modified hammer, but it is easier to tell where material was removed in the ones I am posting. Hope this helps....

 

From near to far in the first 2 pics: stock hammer, reprofiled Tromix Mod'd G2 (your final hammer profile should be close to this one), virgin G2 before I modified and profiled it

 

Last 2 pics: G2 after grinding, still rough and unfinished. Note where it is high and didn't get ground a lot.

 

 

 

On the mag.... I have 3 Surefires and experience very few FTFs (maybe 2 per 100 rounds of Winchester Universal). You might try a little Silicone spray in the mag body.... very little. Here is some.... Surefire inspiration

[saigalupo 1]

I dont know about anybody elses experience with surefire mags but my 8 and 12 rounders have been flawless. Ive heard the same thing about the AGP 10 rounders too and those have also been flawless for me. My saiga is bone stock except for an American puck.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If your expiriencing variances that are consistant with the feed of the mag I would definitly look to the mag.

 

I recomend troubleshooting guns on russian 5rnd mags and high brass.

 

Remove possible causes for concern to reduce guess work.

[Stansplace 414]

I have lots of the surefire 12 round mags and have had exactly 0 issues with any of them once I got my gun right. I have heard of people having problems, but my experience is that once the gun is slick, it eats pretty much anything, from anything. Took some doing to get it there, but now I just wanna go shoot it all the time. Sort of like making love.................. oh wait....

[Paulyski 2,227]

Surefire admits that their 12 rounders don't lift 3" too well, in the 8 round configuration, they're great for 3".

 

One of the surefire 12s I had had a collapsed mouth (top) & caused drag on the shells.

Drag on shells can cause FTF.

I boiled water, diped it & spread the top so that it is the same as the Russian 5 rounder & stretched the spring to increase tension.

 

They were made of harder polymer than ProMag, so it never re-collapsed.

 

Good luck.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Paulyski

[Racer 27 37]

When I made my 15 round steel mags I found that the surefire mag's spring is shorter (weaker ?) then an AGP. You could swap springs and try it if you had one.

[Stansplace 414]

Surefire admits that their 12 rounders don't lift 3" too well, in the 8 round configuration, they're great for 3".

 

One of the surefire 12s I had had a collapsed mouth (top) & caused drag on the shells.

Drag on shells can cause FTF.

I boiled water, diped it & spread the top so that it is the same as the Russian 5 rounder & stretched the spring to increase tension.

 

They were made of harder polymer than ProMag, so it never re-collapsed.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Are you referring to them collapsing like the promag's do?

 

Do you have any idea what may have caused it?

 

Like I stated earlier, I have many of these and was aware of the 3" magnums causing the tabs to break off, but I was unaware of the type of problem you mentioned and would like to avoid it if at all possible.

 

I have quite a few of these that I depend on and would either cut them down to a smaller size, or buy a better brand if I felt I couldn't trust them. Please let me know what you will about the problems you experienced. Thanks.

 

 

 

[Paulyski 2,227]

Surefire admits that their 12 rounders don't lift 3" too well, in the 8 round configuration, they're great for 3".

 

One of the surefire 12s I had had a collapsed mouth (top) & caused drag on the shells.

Drag on shells can cause FTF.

I boiled water, diped it & spread the top so that it is the same as the Russian 5 rounder & stretched the spring to increase tension.

 

They were made of harder polymer than ProMag, so it never re-collapsed.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Are you referring to them collapsing like the promag's do?

 

Do you have any idea what may have caused it?

 

Like I stated earlier, I have many of these and was aware of the 3" magnums causing the tabs to break off, but I was unaware of the type of problem you mentioned and would like to avoid it if at all possible.

 

I have quite a few of these that I depend on and would either cut them down to a smaller size, or buy a better brand if I felt I couldn't trust them. Please let me know what you will about the problems you experienced. Thanks.

Yep. It was like the promag, just not as bad & once I fixed it, it was great. To see if you're having this specific issue, disassemble the mags & use a round as a feeler gauge. I had 2 surefires. 1 had the issue, one didn't & I have rarely heard of any having the issue, but on my "mag tuning day" when I fixed my ProMag, I treated this one too, as I had experienced a few FTFs on this particular mag.

I would imagine this was caused by something being laid on top of it for a long period of time, or when still hot out of the injection molding press... The ProMags however, get collapsed by the pressure of their spring steel feed-lips, & the plastic is so soft, that they can re-collapse if one doesn't spread the feed lips a touch to reduce the pressure....

 

I DO like Surefire's feed-lips. Although plastic, they hold the round down in the correct position, the same as the Russians & they don't very in length run to run... The AGPs feed-lips can very in length depending on the run & I got a few that were a touch short & let the top round pop up a touch. I didn't like that, however, the surefire's follower tilts more than the AGPs & I don't like that either. If you notice, your Russian 5's follower doesn't tilt nearly as much as your surefire's. The 2 AGPs I have now both keep the top round pressed down in the front until loaded & the followers are both solid.

 

Now on another note, Surefire has admitted that their 12 rounders aren't as dependable with 3" rounds... Even when perfect.

For the utmost reliability from a surefire with 3" rounds, cut it down to 8, or buy russian 8s (PM me if you don't know where to find them, they're $134.00 shipped from the UK) Tuned AGP 10s are the runner up for 3" rounds.

 

At any rate, surefire's spring IS weaker than AGPs. It's stronger than ProMag's though.

 

In my honest opinion through experience I have found the AGP to be my favorite US stick mag available at the present time. In their 10 round configuration, once tuned, they are VERY VERY reliable. As far as I know, most of the LEOs here run AGPs if they run american mags on duty. That being said, they have their issues too, but their easily overcome.

For AGPs, I sand the inside with 240 grit to make them real smooth, then put locktite on the screws, tighten them & then reverse 1/2 turn. I also stretch ALL US mag springs to increase the pressure they exert to be equal to my Russian 8s & 5.

 

The competition guys like the surefire 12, because they can use a magwell & have 12 rounds. But they're only using low power 2 3/4" loads, so they are reliable as 12s.

 

If I were you I would cut a Surefire down to 8 for defense & see how you like it.

 

I personally have sold everything & am sticking with AGP 10s, Russian 8s & MD-20s.

A tuned AGP 10 runs as good as a Surefire 8 & looks better & I keep all stick mags filled with 3" .00 Magnum Buck.

 

Now the part about the front tab breaking was remedied when they widened the tab like you can see in the pic below, but for the UTMOST reliability, the Russians have steel in the front tab.

 

In short I assure that the opening at the top of every mag is the same size as the Russians & the spring pressure is equal.

 

Whatever you do, AVOID PROMAG! Their stick mags are severely lacking due to soft polymer & although they are the best looking American mag, they cannot be made dependable enough compared to all the others to be anything other than a range mag. They can be made to be dependable, but regress over time in my experience.

 

I studied the differences in all the mags a while back. I kinda went crazy buying mags, but then I came to & sold a few for $$$ to buy an MD-20. I have my 2nd MD-20 on the way I liked it so much.

The only issues I have with the MD-20 are issues for ALL the drums. 1st they only run 2 3/4" rounds & 2nd the rounds rattle around a little bit & make a little noise... Not too good for covert tactical situations, however ALL drums rattle like that, as there is no spring pressure pressing the rounds together. That being said, if I ever had to hold a position... MD-20 all the way baby!!!

 

 

Hope that helped.

 

ETA: I didn't realize I was posting in response to you Stansplace... (Not paying attention I guess ) I know much of what I posted is redundant being as you've been around a while, but I'll leave it just in case someone else may benefit from the info.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Paulyski

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I'll agree on it being a bit redundant, but its a great summary for someone coming in new.

 

Nice post.

[Stansplace 414]

Surefire admits that their 12 rounders don't lift 3" too well, in the 8 round configuration, they're great for 3".

 

One of the surefire 12s I had had a collapsed mouth (top) & caused drag on the shells.

Drag on shells can cause FTF.

I boiled water, diped it & spread the top so that it is the same as the Russian 5 rounder & stretched the spring to increase tension.

 

They were made of harder polymer than ProMag, so it never re-collapsed.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Are you referring to them collapsing like the promag's do?

 

Do you have any idea what may have caused it?

 

Like I stated earlier, I have many of these and was aware of the 3" magnums causing the tabs to break off, but I was unaware of the type of problem you mentioned and would like to avoid it if at all possible.

 

I have quite a few of these that I depend on and would either cut them down to a smaller size, or buy a better brand if I felt I couldn't trust them. Please let me know what you will about the problems you experienced. Thanks.

Yep. It was like the promag, just not as bad & once I fixed it, it was great. To see if you're having this specific issue, disassemble the mags & use a round as a feeler gauge. I had 2 surefires. 1 had the issue, one didn't & I have rarely heard of any having the issue, but on my "mag tuning day" when I fixed my ProMag, I treated this one too, as I had experienced a few FTFs on this particular mag.

I would imagine this was caused by something being laid on top of it for a long period of time, or when still hot out of the injection molding press... The ProMags however, get collapsed by the pressure of their spring steel feed-lips, & the plastic is so soft, that they can re-collapse if one doesn't spread the feed lips a touch to reduce the pressure....

 

I DO like Surefire's feed-lips. Although plastic, they hold the round down in the correct position, the same as the Russians & they don't very in length run to run... The AGPs feed-lips can very in length depending on the run & I got a few that were a touch short & let the top round pop up a touch. I didn't like that, however, the surefire's follower tilts more than the AGPs & I don't like that either. If you notice, your Russian 5's follower doesn't tilt nearly as much as your surefire's. The 2 AGPs I have now both keep the top round pressed down in the front until loaded & the followers are both solid.

 

Now on another note, Surefire has admitted that their 12 rounders aren't as dependable with 3" rounds... Even when perfect.

For the utmost reliability from a surefire with 3" rounds, cut it down to 8, or buy russian 8s (PM me if you don't know where to find them, they're $134.00 shipped from the UK) Tuned AGP 10s are the runner up for 3" rounds.

 

At any rate, surefire's spring IS weaker than AGPs. It's stronger than ProMag's though.

 

In my honest opinion through experience I have found the AGP to be my favorite US stick mag available at the present time. In their 10 round configuration, once tuned, they are VERY VERY reliable. As far as I know, most of the LEOs here run AGPs if they run american mags on duty. That being said, they have their issues too, but their easily overcome.

For AGPs, I sand the inside with 240 grit to make them real smooth, then put locktite on the screws, tighten them & then reverse 1/2 turn. I also stretch ALL US mag springs to increase the pressure they exert to be equal to my Russian 8s & 5.

 

The competition guys like the surefire 12, because they can use a magwell & have 12 rounds. But they're only using low power 2 3/4" loads, so they are reliable as 12s.

 

If I were you I would cut a Surefire down to 8 for defense & see how you like it.

 

I personally have sold everything & am sticking with AGP 10s, Russian 8s & MD-20s.

A tuned AGP 10 runs as good as a Surefire 8 & looks better & I keep all stick mags filled with 3" .00 Magnum Buck.

 

Now the part about the front tab breaking was remedied when they widened the tab like you can see in the pic below, but for the UTMOST reliability, the Russians have steel in the front tab.

 

In short I assure that the opening at the top of every mag is the same size as the Russians & the spring pressure is equal.

 

Whatever you do, AVOID PROMAG! Their stick mags are severely lacking due to soft polymer & although they are the best looking American mag, they cannot be made dependable enough compared to all the others to be anything other than a range mag. They can be made to be dependable, but regress over time in my experience.

 

I studied the differences in all the mags a while back. I kinda went crazy buying mags, but then I came to & sold a few for $$ to buy an MD-20. I have my 2nd MD-20 on the way I liked it so much.

The only issues I have with the MD-20 are issues for ALL the drums. 1st they only run 2 3/4" rounds & 2nd the rounds rattle around a little bit & make a little noise... Not too good for covert tactical situations, however ALL drums rattle like that, as there is no spring pressure pressing the rounds together. That being said, if I ever had to hold a position... MD-20 all the way baby!!!

 

 

Hope that helped.

 

ETA: I didn't realize I was posting in response to you Stansplace... (Not paying attention I guess ) I know much of what I posted is redundant being as you've been around a while, but I'll leave it just in case someone else may benefit from the info.

 

 

Sweet

 

That's what I love about this forum. Ask and ye shall receive, thanks for the info man. I think I'll be able to make some good decisions based on some of that info. I have already worked on my surefires springs etc.... and have proven them time and time again. But I do have some decisions to make about adding the AGP's to the lineup. I have proven my surefires with 2-3/4" stuff, but have shied away from the 3" stuff. I also stock the 2-3/4" shells, but haven't done any testing with the 3's. I will probably add some AGP's and 3" shells to the lineup. You know, just so I can fire for effect.

 

 

[BuzzNectar 35]

if you think it could be the hammer then simply swap in the factory hammer and see how that works.just remember that if you do that your losing 1 us compliant part for 922r.i just really wish that there was a better built bargan us trigger group than the tapco g2.it truley is a lousy piece to have in SO MANY guns in america.kind of like century arms and 95% of the ak-74's they produce with incorrect barrel size and twist.it just makes me sick the way they contaminate the country with junk weapons that people may have to trust their life with some day.....uh...sorry for venting in your thread.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I run a Surefire 12 and have never had a problem, my weapon even functions with the Surefire 12 loaded with Rio low-brass bird-shot...

 

I can fit 13 shells into my Surefire 12 though, whatever that means...

[corbin 621]

The first Surefire 12 rounders could fit 13. I don't think the new ones can. When I first got them, I experienced a couple problems with my 12 rounders, but that was duringthe break in period of the gun, so it's hard to say where the fault was. I only run SF 8 rounders now, since they're more handy to carry. Zero problems.

[negev5021 25]

Thanks to all for the replies. I have been doing some function testing, and have pics but need to be at my office computer to load, so they will follow. A couple of things I am seeing is 1)hand cycling I can produce 2 ftf, 1 where it catches on the barrel hood, and another where the shell tip, just before entering the bore, catches on the angled portion of the barrel, on top, where that spring loaded thing on the bolt connects with the barrel, and it deforms the shell.

 

Like I said I will post pics, but further research on this site found mention on some threads enlarging the barrel hood? Anybody have pics of how much? Mig/Tig? Any detailed info would be helpfull. Thanks!

[negev5021 25]

if you think it could be the hammer then simply swap in the factory hammer and see how that works.just remember that if you do that your losing 1 us compliant part for 922r.i just really wish that there was a better built bargan us trigger group than the tapco g2.it truley is a lousy piece to have in SO MANY guns in america.kind of like century arms and 95% of the ak-74's they produce with incorrect barrel size and twist.it just makes me sick the way they contaminate the country with junk weapons that people may have to trust their life with some day.....uh...sorry for venting in your thread.

 

 

I am with you on that sir. I have read that with factory hammer use you risk slamfire/full auto? I really want to put the original hammer back in, but don't want to mess with known failures. I have plenty of US parts so if that is the real issue, someone talk me into/out of doing so please!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

As long as your disconnect will still catch the hammer if the weapon is cycled, with the trigger held back, then the factory hammer is worth a try. I just don't like mixing FCG parts and I do know someone who experienced a runaway Saiga rifle (7.62 x 39) because someone used the factory hammer with a G-2, along with other mods which ended up causing my friend's gun to slamfire.

It can't be stressed enough to only use the factory five rd mag that came with your shotgun, while doing any kind of reliability tests. Once you have the factory mag running 100%, you are then ready to start trying other mags, but not before then if you want it to run 100%.

 

[negev5021 25]

Thanks Cobra, I do run factory mags at 100%. Range tested today and was mildly suprised I had fewer FTF than in the match last week. Funny how things go wrong when the timer is running....

 

Anyway here are some pics, first FTF issue #1:

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

as you can see, the round is catching on the area that the bolt locks to when in battery. Here is a shot of the inside of the barrel, which looks like it is actually dinged a little..:

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

Its pretty consistant in FTF, Here are what the shells look like:

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

So for this solve I propose to file that interior bump smooth, and polish the area on the barrel, as well as polish the extractor on the bolt. Any better suggestions please do tell!

 

Next is FTF #2:

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

This one I propose to add some material to the barrel hood, which I am assuming is the metal the shell is running into. I spoke with a welder who said they could add without removing the barrel. Once again any further info/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

I know the first thing I should do is tune magazines, and I will work on that. The proposed mods appear at first to be an improvement no matter what, and can't hurt anything (right?). My main concern is FTF #1, which it seems the bolt is dinging the barrel enough to deform. I notice that when the bolt goes into battery, there is most resistance right at the end, as if there needs to be extra power to get the extractor to lock so I would like to resolve this issue of course.

 

Any thoughts by anyone with experience would be helpfull... man, I thought fixing the FTE problems was the end of it! Actually I am not sure what I would do with my free time if I did not have Saiga problems! Thanks again.

Edited May 23, 2010 by negev5021

[elia.jon1 1]

this will maybe help you with your surefires, i discussed it at length with kevin of agp when i was having all my agp mags break the springs.......

 

find a cheap ak47 40 round magazine(rebuild kit if you can or just a cheap mag)

 

take apart said 40 rounder....take apart the faulty 12ga mag......

 

replace spring with 40rd ak mag spring.......

 

it will fit great, and should be stouter than your factory 12ga spring.....

 

this has worked great in 2 of my agps for years.......(i just happened to have some 40rd springs)

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

That definitely works replacing AGP springs with 40 rd AK mag springs. I've done that myself with some rusty springs I had. You can also purchase brand new replacement springs from Wolf. I have a new steel 15 rd S-12 mag made by Racer27 that will most likely be getting one of the Wolf extra stiff springs I bought. Those would be a great solution for weak SGM springs.

 

Be careful working on that extractor notch problem you have there. You don't want to mess up the way your shell rims seat in the chamber. That does indeed look like a problem area though and does need attention. Polishing your extractor will also help. I do that to all of mine and the notches.

 

The barrel hood is beveled on the end so get your welder to pay attention to this area when he puts an extension on it. I would be interested in seeing some good pics of this process because I have a 410 that was shortened there by the dumbass who owned it before me, and needs to have a little length added to it to get it to feed better.

 

[negev5021 25]

Be careful working on that extractor notch problem you have there. You don't want to mess up the way your shell rims seat in the chamber. That does indeed look like a problem area though and does need attention. Polishing your extractor will also help. I do that to all of mine and the notches.

 

The barrel hood is beveled on the end so get your welder to pay attention to this area when he puts an extension on it. I would be interested in seeing some good pics of this process because I have a 410 that was shortened there by the dumbass who owned it before me, and needs to have a little length added to it to get it to feed better.

 

 

Well, I did the enlargement of the barrel hood and posted the pics in the tech section. Cobra, can you suggest a solution to the extractor notch problem? Thanks!

[Paulyski 2,227]

That issue can be from the mag not raising the shells fast enough & being askew while trying to chamber it.

You said you were 100% on the factory 5, so if the top of the surefrie isn't dragging on (slowing down) shells, you may try the spring swap or cut down to 8, or stretch out the mag's spring.

 

In short, if your gun is running great with the 5 rounder but not aftermarket mags, focus on the mag more than the gun.

[negev5021 25]

this will maybe help you with your surefires, i discussed it at length with kevin of agp when i was having all my agp mags break the springs.......

 

find a cheap ak47 40 round magazine(rebuild kit if you can or just a cheap mag)

 

take apart said 40 rounder....take apart the faulty 12ga mag......

 

replace spring with 40rd ak mag spring.......

 

it will fit great, and should be stouter than your factory 12ga spring.....

 

this has worked great in 2 of my agps for years.......(i just happened to have some 40rd springs)

 

 

Ok took your tip and broke open a 40 rounder, and set it next to the 12 round surefire spring. The 40 round spring was a good 2 inches shorter than the surefire spring. The baseplate insert of the surefire did not seat right on the 40 round spring, and the follower now has some up/down play. It does not seem to provide more upward pressure. Is it possible for the shorter spring to provide the fix? Not questioning your info, just scratching my head.

 

I will try it for sure, heck I got nuthin to loose!

 

I had another thought and want to throw it out. My 12 rounder will actually hold 13 rounds. What if I put a shim at the bottom of the mag to take up that space? Thanks again!

[elia.jon1 1]

i guess i might have been foolish thinking about the 10rd and 12 rd as equal....

 

that 40 rd spring i had was like 3 almost 4x as long as my agp(mag) little longer than the spring

 

i would say you could cut it down(the mag)?

 

but please dont stretch the spring it might help you a little(for a few times) but then your spring is f'ed

[drmitchgibson 0]

I've had FTE with low brass on gas setting 1, and FTF with any brass on gas setting two. I'm not sure if my Surefire mags are the issue, yet, but I don't know that I've broken mine in. What is the typical round count for break-in? I have roughly 200 through mine, so far. And I have Gen 1 SF 12rnd mags. Thanks.

 

After re-reading this, I thought I'd clarify. I would like to know the break-in round count for the gun. It sounds like I was talking about the mags.

Edited May 31, 2010 by drmitchgibson