Saiga Shotgun Gunfighting Video Due Out In June

[BpS12 512]

Damn, you all would be in Michigan, I'm in SW Ohio. I'd love to get in on some of that ACTS. But could I use my S12 w/ slugs? Or what about a S.308(my next Saiga)? Maybe worth a trip late this summer, esp if I don't do Pennsic.

[Caspian 32]

However...speaking as a former Soldier that's been in his share of real world "lead exchanges", I say anything that makes you a smaller & moving target while allowing you to still get rounds on the BG is a good thing. Being able to transition from position to position smoothly is preferable. Admittedly, I think I've only used something similar to the Spetsnaz Prone once in actual combat. No shots were fired by me though. But it got me on target quick and I wasn't hit. The guy in front of me got nicked though. Had I stood there and just turned around, I would have likely been hit. But that's Monday morning quarterbacking, so who knows.

Corbin

 

I've spent lots of time learning from cops experiences and lot of time learning from soldiers. Frankly, i'd rather spend 3 days with Corbin than Suarez.

 

There are a few local guys who have truly "been there, done that", and have the missing leg and scars to back it up. i respect his real world experience.

 

Caspian

[Juggernaut 11,054]

FWIW, as a Marine who has "Been there" Gabe has earned my respect...

[Heath_h49008 442]

Damn, you all would be in Michigan, I'm in SW Ohio. I'd love to get in on some of that ACTS. But could I use my S12 w/ slugs? Or what about a S.308(my next Saiga)? Maybe worth a trip late this summer, esp if I don't do Pennsic.

 

The round count might kill you.

 

If you like, I'm quite certain we could scare you up a Rosco or two to run a match with. Register on the forum there and introduce yourself. Jimmy and the boys are great.

[corbin 621]

Maybe worth a trip late this summer, esp if I don't do Pennsic.

 

Hail, MidRealmer!!! I haven't missed a Pennsic in 17 years, though I might this year.

 

 

 

Frankly, i'd rather spend 3 days with Corbin than Suarez.

 

Caspian

 

 

Thanks Caspian, but I'm nowhere near the level I was 20 years ago (the older I get, the better I WAS, LOL). Seriously though, it's worth it to try out different instruction and take what works for you. Even if some techniques don't work for you, you'll at least have given them a try and know that. I myself cannot bend my right wrist due to a shotgun injury that took my wrist out. It's got a titanium rod in there now. So some techniques, though they may be good, cannot be done well by me. But at least I'll be able to pass the techniques along to those that CAN use them, if need be.

 

 

Corbin

[BpS12 512]

"Hail, MidRealmer!!! I haven't missed a Pennsic in 17 years, though I might this year."

 

Sorry to hear that, I've been there for all of the last ten or so. Love it but can only afford so many "hobbies", lol. Working on getting back into Paintball, something a bit more pertinant to the looming crisi. Though the Sheild Wall is much like Riot Control, lol.

 

I like your attitude on training, Use what you can, pass it all on.

 

Draco Invictius!

lol

[ViperRy 7]

Do some research on Gabe, it'll definitely be a good video to watch. I also heard some LoneStar Arms weaponry may make a cameo in the film?

[cellsworth 21]

Looks cool.

 

Now, let me be clear that I've never been instructed in the technique, so I don't know how effective "combat rolls" actually are, but I gotta say, they always remind me a bit of this...

 

 

 

 

You mean they remind you of someone "playing ninja" in the most retarded/unrealistic way possible? Yeah, I got the same impression... But, he's not as silly as he looks. There are situations you might change stance in ONE of those manners. Putting them all together like a Kata simply looks moronic. (The low stance would be excellent for someone who really needs to slip and shoot his foot off.)

 

Gabe is putting the movements together for instructional purposes, illustrating ways in which you could rapidly act to provide 360 degrees of coverage depending upon where the "threat" is in relation to you.

 

His transition looks ugly as hell as well. It breaks 180, (so It would DQ you in most tactical competitions), the sling is sloppy,(It wouldn't be much good in a running transition with the barrel bouncing off the back of your knees), and bringing it all the way over your head would slow your transition down so much as to get you an new orifice from your target. Not to mention if you were wearing a vest or pack, it would be impossible to do, or prone to getting the weapon hung up in your gear.

 

Gabe doesn't care about tactical competitions. He cares about what he believes will work in the very high-stress realm of armed confrontation. To that end, Gabe favors simple gross motor skill techniques over more complicated techniques involving finer motor skills. Such a training philosophy is now mainstream, in law enforcement training at least. I have seen him do running transitions with that method, and it works very well for him. One might also keep in mind that the point of such a transition is to secure the long gun in a big hurry, because something went seriously wrong with it and you need to switch to a handgun as quickly as possible. His method is effective in that regard. Gabe's approach to sling use also makes ambidextrous use of a long gun easier than is the case with most other sling techniques--no monkeying around with the sling is required. The techniques works fine with a tactical vest or chest rig, as Gabe has demonstrated countless times. While not ideal with a pack, I don't see how it would be "impossible to do," or even difficult to do. Again, the technique is employed to deal with an immediate problem. Long-term comfort is not a consideration in such a case.

 

I don't know the guy from Adam, but he looks low speed, high drag.

 

Gabe is about as far from "high drag" as you can get. His training emphasizes simplicity and efficiency above all else, without sacrificing effectiveness. He does not have as high speed a resume as some, but his training techniques are sound. Nothing is perfect, and there is always room for disagreement, but his methods do work well.

 

Maybe his tactics are more suited to pump-guns outfitted a certain way for duty use. But the Saiga 12 would be more effectively employed like a carbine. It IS a carbine, a low capacity one, rebuilt for larger ammo, and with limited range.

 

If you were familiar with Gabe's rifle CQB training, you would see that he is running the S-12 in the same way. That actually makes the S-12 specific DVD less interesting to me, as I am already familiar with his rifle CQB training methods. Gabe sometimes fires a longer string of shots to break out of the double-tap mode and emphasize the need to be prepared to keep shooting until the problem is solved.

 

 

Far be it from me to pop anyone's balloons, but that vid is just silly. IMHO

 

It is just a very brief collection of small portions of a few segments. The selection could have been better, but the whole video cannot reasonably be judged on the basis of a few seconds of footage taken out of context. Gabe's videos are pretty good.

 

Heath

 

I am not touting Gabe's training over anyone else's. I just wanted to note that his training methods are sound. He is NOT some inept joker.

[bobsolla 7]

All I know is that Dragonov shirt he is waring is BadAss!!!

 

 

Wherever could I find a shirt like that?!

 

 

Another Michigan boy here too. As far as the "tactical rolls" Gabe does (more correctly called Spetsnaz prone), I don't know if they'd be too useful for matches, since it's meant more to avoid incoming bullets than to speed up your shot time. It also changes your profile DURING THE FIGHT, making the bad guy have to re-adjust. Kinda like hitting the target while moving. No sense in standing still and trading a shot for a shot, if you can help it.

 

That's not to say you want to do that if you don't need to. That would remind me of the show off guy in this fight (who appeared to be in better shape) getting laid out with one punch while showing off:

 

i guess all that monkey jumping didn`t help!love that video!

 

I still love watching that from time to time.

 

However...speaking as a former Soldier that's been in his share of real world "lead exchanges", I say anything that makes you a smaller & moving target while allowing you to still get rounds on the BG is a good thing. Being able to transition from position to position smoothly is preferable. Admittedly, I think I've only used something similar to the Spetsnaz Prone once in actual combat. No shots were fired by me though. But it got me on target quick and I wasn't hit. The guy in front of me got nicked though. Had I stood there and just turned around, I would have likely been hit. But that's Monday morning quarterbacking, so who knows.

 

The over the head shotgun transition to pistol works great for me. It's not the only thing out there though. Not by any means. You will need a longer sling to do it. No, it's not as range friendly as a 3 point sling transition, or even a single point one. However, neither is being able to fire 360 degrees, but if you're in an actual life or death situation, you better to be able to engage any target at any position. If that means engaging while you're seated, knocked down or running, so be it. Again, not as range friendly. Just applicable to the real World.

 

 

Anyway, that's just the view from this particular soapbox. Your view may vary.

 

 

 

 

Corbin

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Krav505 and John K. (just back from Iraq).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT4lX7knQ6w

[theplastik 67]

Krav505 and John K. (just back from Iraq).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT4lX7knQ6w

 

Very nice fellas.

[FRC64 2]

I keep thinking of Tim Allen in Galaxy Quest.

Ill pass on the vidio cause Im not planning on being in any shotgun fights.

 

Good luck to those who do.

Thanks...I guess.

Oh, and I wouldn't be too worried about being preoccupied with thoughts of Tim Allen...he's a pretty good looking dude and I hear he's quite charming.

Edited June 2, 2010 by FRC64

[cfish 2]

Ok who was singing the song on the Lone Star arms video?? I can't remeber!!

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Chambers Brothers song. Classic!

[elvis christ 451]

I was always under the impression that Gabe Suarez didn't 'agree' with Saiga 12 conversions, I thought he was of the opinion that the gun was fine in its importable configuration...

[FRC64 2]

Gabe is a huge proponent of the converted Saiga-12. He's a 100% AK guy and believes in commonality of platforms between your primary (rifle in most cases) and shotgun. Easier to transition between them if all of the controls and overall feel is the same.

 

When he was first introduced to the Saiga-12, it didn't seem like love at first sight, but he comes across as someone who really does his homework before making a final decision. He's certainly a believer now.

[vitamink 90]

I'll buy a video if for no other reason than to see a professional use the s12 in combat scenarios. I have the magpul aerial platform operations DVD just because you get to see unique use of an s12 on a helicopter.

[Zambidis 90]

I think one of Gabe's issues with saiga customization is that he is in the business of teaching. If you have some guns with magwells and some without, some with extended mag releases and some without, some with galil charging handles others with LH charging handles and some the standards, etc, etc. Then it throws a wrench in coming up with one system which you can teach to everyone.

 

From what I have seen and from what I have read of things he has authored I do not believe he is against converted guns. I have seen him say he does not favor some things like magwells (which I personally see as one of the very best mods I've done to my gun b/c of how much it has increased the speed and ease of reloads). He had his reasons for the mods he thinks people should put on. Any given end use may have different reasoning and motivations.

 

Gabe is a respected trainer. Its a video I would probably pick up provided its price is reasonable.

[vimatey 0]

All I know is that Dragonov shirt he is waring is BadAss!!!

 

 

Wherever could I find a shirt like that?!

 

 

Another Michigan boy here too. As far as the "tactical rolls" Gabe does (more correctly called Spetsnaz prone), I don't know if they'd be too useful for matches, since it's meant more to avoid incoming bullets than to speed up your shot time. It also changes your profile DURING THE FIGHT, making the bad guy have to re-adjust. Kinda like hitting the target while moving. No sense in standing still and trading a shot for a shot, if you can help it.

 

That's not to say you want to do that if you don't need to. That would remind me of the show off guy in this fight (who appeared to be in better shape) getting laid out with one punch while showing off:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmuUKKkluSc

 

I still love watching that from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

Corbin

 

 

i watch that clip too when i need to chuckle

[FRC64 2]

I think one of Gabe's issues with saiga customization is that he is in the business of teaching. If you have some guns with magwells and some without, some with extended mag releases and some without, some with galil charging handles others with LH charging handles and some the standards, etc, etc. Then it throws a wrench in coming up with one system which you can teach to everyone.

 

From what I have seen and from what I have read of things he has authored I do not believe he is against converted guns. I have seen him say he does not favor some things like magwells (which I personally see as one of the very best mods I've done to my gun b/c of how much it has increased the speed and ease of reloads). He had his reasons for the mods he thinks people should put on. Any given end use may have different reasoning and motivations.

 

Gabe is a respected trainer. Its a video I would probably pick up provided its price is reasonable.

 

When attending one of Gabe's Shotgun Fighting courses, you'd be amazed at the varied types of shotguns. It's strictly Brung-What-You-Run. The numbers of Saiga-12s is rising, but still in the minority. Any shotgun works for these seminars.

 

Gabe's personal belief seems to be to run an AK as your primary and a converted Saiga-12 as your shotgun. Again he believes in and teaches the Commonality of Platform idea, same feel, same function, same controls. He has refered to the stock Saiga as "Sporting" and the converted Saiga as "Fighting".

 

When it comes to the magwell modifications, I agree with Gabes stance. He's not against the Saiga magwell. It is a great mod that works well, but until magwells are on the majority of AK rifles, He'll stick with the rock-and-lock mags. It's not knocking the magwell at all, just sticking with the Commonality of Platform idea.

 

Here is an actual quote from Gabe:

 

"Guys...I am all for improving things. That said...FOR ME (others can do as they please) I want to keep my Saiga as close to the operations of the AK as possible. The shotgun is an ancillary, not a primary weapon for me, and as such, I want it work exactly as my primary weapon.

 

To that end, I avoid anything on MY SAIGA that will alter the trigger press, the safety operation, the magazine work, and the bolt operation. When all AKs in the world have magwells, I may reconsider. Again, you guys do as you please as I have stated MY reasons."

 

He put out a great book on Saiga-12 gunfighting and now the DVD. A dedicated Saiga-12 training course can't be far away.

[Zambidis 90]

Again he believes in and teaches the Commonality of Platform idea, same feel, same function, same controls.

 

This begs the honest question of what the Saiga specific videos will offer that his regular AK video does not. If it is all about commonality and one is schooled in those methods is there anything new?

 

I appreciate the sentiments about commonality. It is something you hear many quality instructors talk about. However, IMHO, commonality is not an end in its self. Rather, one seeks commonality to allow muscle memory to facilitate smoothness and speed in operating the weapons system.

 

In my humble opinion the need to compress the shells with in a S12 mag (absent modification to the bolt) means that the reload is not exactly the same anyways. Add in the difference in the size and shape of the mags (which leads to a difference in how/where the sit on chest rig, a difference in how they feel clearing a mag pouch, and a difference in how one grabs them and how they fit in your hand) and the reload is not totally exactly the same from a AK carbine to a S12 anyhow. I have watched a fair number of people who are familiar with reloading AKs struggle to load a 10 or 12 round S12 mag on a closed bolt. Perhaps if one learns on the S12 the exact motion with would work on a rifle but the inverse has repeatedly been shown to be false.

 

Even if there was total commonality, I would go back to the idea that commonality is a means to an end (smooth fast operation) not an end in its self. My fastest magwell reloads are simple faster than my fastest rock and lock reloads. The fastest reloads I have seen period on S12s are with magwells and they blow away the fastest rock and lock reloads I have ever seen. Further, even those people I have shot with that claim proficiency in reloading S12s on a closed bolt bobble it from time to time. I've seen costly bobbles at three gun matches from guys that shoot and practice more than your average shooter. In fact I think that bobbling a closed bolt reload is even easier to do when you are under pressure (be it a clock or something more serious). I've done it with my guns set up for rock and lock mags. A magwell is not only faster it is easier to be consistent in my experience.

 

Now there is another end that is served by consistency between things. That end is that the motion being the same you don't go to do the wrong thing. For example on I always carry my CCW spar mag in the same place with the mag oriented the same way. That means I wont accidentally reach for my pocket (were I to carry it there half the time) instead of my belt. If you've every driven a stick shift exclusively for a long period of time perhaps you've had the experience of moving your foot to push in the clutch and reaching for a gear shift when you subsequently drive an automatic. I have never experience this type of wrong motion problem on my magwelled S12. Similarly I do not experience it going form my AK to my AR.

 

Arguably what is lost is the repetition that one would get even when using the shotgun that would aid with the carbine. I'll sacrifice it as a small price for the undeniable increase in speed and sureness when reloading the S12 that a magwell offers(it offers it for me at least).

 

This is just the commonality of reloading. There are other areas where the commonality of feel does not cross over perfectly either.

 

Further, it is a totally moot point if an AK carbine is not used. It is a less convincing point if an AK carbine is not one's go to. I like many people, including most armed professionals, have a AR/M4 for their go to carbine. I have a number of AK platform weapons and I like them and enjoy become more proficient with them but honestly I'm my Noveske is more likely to be called into action than any of them.

 

Zak Smith hosts an AK versus AR shooting match out in Colorado. Over the years he has been doing it one thing has become clear, the ARs win. Don't get me wrong I love AKs but they have their limitations, and even more so if left stock.

 

For me when it comes to serious my "serious" guns the end measure is what works and that is measured by performance.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Again he believes in and teaches the Commonality of Platform idea, same feel, same function, same controls.

 

This begs the honest question of what the Saiga specific videos will offer that his regular AK video does not. If it is all about commonality and one is schooled in those methods is there anything new?

 

I appreciate the sentiments about commonality. It is something you hear many quality instructors talk about. However, IMHO, commonality is not an end in its self. Rather, one seeks commonality to allow muscle memory to facilitate smoothness and speed in operating the weapons system.

 

In my humble opinion the need to compress the shells with in a S12 mag (absent modification to the bolt) means that the reload is not exactly the same anyways. Add in the difference in the size and shape of the mags (which leads to a difference in how/where the sit on chest rig, a difference in how they feel clearing a mag pouch, and a difference in how one grabs them and how they fit in your hand) and the reload is not totally exactly the same from a AK carbine to a S12 anyhow. I have watched a fair number of people who are familiar with reloading AKs struggle to load a 10 or 12 round S12 mag on a closed bolt. Perhaps if one learns on the S12 the exact motion with would work on a rifle but the inverse has repeatedly been shown to be false.

 

Even if there was total commonality, I would go back to the idea that commonality is a means to an end (smooth fast operation) not an end in its self. My fastest magwell reloads are simple faster than my fastest rock and lock reloads. The fastest reloads I have seen period on S12s are with magwells and they blow away the fastest rock and lock reloads I have ever seen. Further, even those people I have shot with that claim proficiency in reloading S12s on a closed bolt bobble it from time to time. I've seen costly bobbles at three gun matches from guys that shoot and practice more than your average shooter. In fact I think that bobbling a closed bolt reload is even easier to do when you are under pressure (be it a clock or something more serious). I've done it with my guns set up for rock and lock mags. A magwell is not only faster it is easier to be consistent in my experience.

 

Now there is another end that is served by consistency between things. That end is that the motion being the same you don't go to do the wrong thing. For example on I always carry my CCW spar mag in the same place with the mag oriented the same way. That means I wont accidentally reach for my pocket (were I to carry it there half the time) instead of my belt. If you've every driven a stick shift exclusively for a long period of time perhaps you've had the experience of moving your foot to push in the clutch and reaching for a gear shift when you subsequently drive an automatic. I have never experience this type of wrong motion problem on my magwelled S12. Similarly I do not experience it going form my AK to my AR.

 

Arguably what is lost is the repetition that one would get even when using the shotgun that would aid with the carbine. I'll sacrifice it as a small price for the undeniable increase in speed and sureness when reloading the S12 that a magwell offers(it offers it for me at least).

 

This is just the commonality of reloading. There are other areas where the commonality of feel does not cross over perfectly either.

 

Further, it is a totally moot point if an AK carbine is not used. It is a less convincing point if an AK carbine is not one's go to. I like many people, including most armed professionals, have a AR/M4 for their go to carbine. I have a number of AK platform weapons and I like them and enjoy become more proficient with them but honestly I'm my Noveske is more likely to be called into action than any of them.

 

Zak Smith hosts an AK versus AR shooting match out in Colorado. Over the years he has been doing it one thing has become clear, the ARs win. Don't get me wrong I love AKs but they have their limitations, and even more so if left stock.

 

For me when it comes to serious my "serious" guns the end measure is what works and that is measured by performance.

 

 

Your points are well considered and well taken. Unfortunately - there is no parallel for the M4/AR15 platform in a 12 gauge. At least not one that average US citizen can purchase for themselves..

 

A magwell equipped S12 is unquestionably faster to reload, but at the expense of versatility. Once one chooses a mag well configuration, one is necessarily committed to a particular mag type, and limited to a maximum capacity. Typically 10 - 12 rounds, unless one chooses the ridiculously long spliced mags fabricated for race guns.

 

A correctly configured S12 will accept practically any mag (excluding the MD 20 which must be fitted) right off the shelf. This affords one the versatility to use anything from a factory five round mag, to an AGP or SGM 10 round mag, to an SGM 12 round mag, to a ProMag 12 round or 20 round drum, to an AA billet aluminum 30 round drum.

 

There is a trade off when a mag well is installed. Generally, gunfights are over within seconds. If you travel with a magwell and multiple magazines in your pocket/pouch, you're set. No question. However, not many people are in that position.

 

Personally, and I am only speaking for myself - in an urban gunfight situation a sustained firefight is highly unlikely. 12 rounds of 9 pellet 00' buck can be delivered to the target area within 2 - 3 seconds using a 12 round stick mag or 12 round drum. That translates to 108, 8.4mm projectiles delivered to the target area (36 to 54 8.4mm projectiles delivered to the target area with the space of one second). That is equivalent to an FA sustained rate of fire of roughly 2400 rounds per minute at a velocity of 1350 FPS. Lead delivery for that short period of time is just shy of a Dylan Minigun.

 

If my opponent can survive that... and 15 - 17 rounds from my sidearm, I'm probably screwed.

[FRC64 2]

Zambidis, I think you misunderstood my intentions when I brought up the Commonality of Platform subject. I certainly didn't mean to start an arguement about this being some sort of iron clad doctrine. I was simply trying to show that Gabe is actually a huge proponent of the converted Saiga. A few posts sounded as if they thought he was possibly against converting the Saiga-12. Gabe makes it clear that these are his preferences and that he doesn't agree with the magwell on his Saiga-12s for the simple reason of the rock-and-lock being on the majority of AK systems.

 

Many times after writing a response and clicking 'Add Reply', I later realize that it wasn't as clear as I thought..."hey, sounded good in my head though...". For what it's worth, my primary, an AK-74 and my NJ legal, unconverted Saiga-12s (It's what's in my closet...) have the commonality of a snow shovel and a pool cue.

 

WaffenSchmied , you stated that, " Unfortunately - there is no parallel for the M4/AR15 platform in a 12 gauge.". With a few of my friends at the range recently, we got into this exact discussion. I used the arguement of the Saiga-12 magwell for making the Saiga closer to the M4/AR15 platform in function and controls. I personally feel that you can get great commonality between the M4/AR15 and the Saiga with the right modifications and furniture. I also have to agree with you that any Saiga-12 with just about any mag will certainly have most real world situations well in hand. Especially considering that the numbers show that the vast majority of gunfights involving shotguns end with 5 or less rounds fired in under 2-3 seconds ( I don't have the exact numbers handy).

 

That's the biggest pro of the Saiga-12 platform...possibilities are endless.

 

Again, sorry about the miscommunication.

[Zambidis 90]

Your points are well considered and well taken. Unfortunately - there is no parallel for the M4/AR15 platform in a 12 gauge. At least not one that average US citizen can purchase for themselves..

 

I agree that for the most part there is not a great deal of commonality but I personally I would take the differences and sacrifice the commonality for the benefit of what in my opinion is a weapon system best suited for what I ask of it. I also agree with FRC64 that more of parelled can be made if one wants to mod their gun that way

 

 

A magwell equipped S12 is unquestionably faster to reload, but at the expense of versatility. Once one chooses a mag well configuration, one is necessarily committed to a particular mag type, and limited to a maximum capacity. Typically 10 - 12 rounds,

 

Yes and no. This probably depends on the style of magwells but some magwells can be removed rather quickly if there is some need. However, once one has an adequate number of mags modified the only reason to switch would be something better hitting the market (say a double stack with its own magwell). I have a MD20 and I like it but it is not real practical in a lot of ways and it adds too much weight for my liking. The weight throws of the handling and makes it a bit unwieldy. I have the drum and a number of unmodified mags but choose to keep my go to S12 with the magwell on because I firmly believe it to be a better setup for my purposes.

 

 

Zambidis, I think you misunderstood my intentions when I brought up the Commonality of Platform subject. I certainly didn't mean to start an arguement about this being some sort of iron clad doctrine. I was simply trying to show that Gabe is actually a huge proponent of the converted Saiga.

 

No I did not take it that way. I also hope you did not misconstrue my comments. I was not looking to argue either rather I was commenting on the reasons, benefits and limits of the benefit of commonality. It was more thinking out loud (sic) than arguing. I think there is a big difference between discussion and arguing.

 

Your subsequent post stated:

 

Gabe makes it clear that these are his preferences and that he doesn't agree with the magwell on his Saiga-12s for the simple reason of the rock-and-lock being on the majority of AK systems.

 

This made me think of one more import benefit on commonality, however not forcedly commonality from S12 to AK rifle, but rather from AK to AK. If you are going to be around a bunch of other people with guns where there is a chance you might make use of theirs or may be given the same type of rifle but not the exact same one all the time, then it is nice if they all work the same way. If one mods their AK rifle to work in a bunch of unique mods to its controls (say AR style safety, left hand charging handles along with a right hand one, etc, etc) then if you have to use another AK you might be at a disadvantage to run it. He may make moves for controls that do not exist. Now one individual who is only likely to be using his gun own gun (say a civilian in the US) should probably not lose much sleep over this. The S12 is not so common a weapon that this is much of a concern.

 

I respect Gabe a lot. He is much more proficient and knowledgeable than I am when it comes to the AK platform. That said I do not think everything he has published on the matter is beyond examination or discussion. His article "Why Ergonimically Motivated Mods Are Stupid" for example had some seriously flawed logic in parts, and questionable contentions in others, (to say nothing of some of his prose e.g. "The safety of course gets a great deal of attention since one cannot masturbate with the safety of a Kalashnikov like they an on an M4 or a 1911.") even if it otherwise made some decent points.

[Zambidis 90]

I saw the video is up on his sight now. Hopefully someone will post a review.

[Barryg 0]

Any reviews yet? I was thinking about ordering, but for the price I could also get a few mags