Wrong Conversion - Disappointed

[Deaden 30]

Send it back, tell him he has 30 days to fix it or give you a refund, otherwise you're taking him to court. Wait for him to respond before you send it. Tell him if he doesn't respond within ten days, you will file a police report. Keep all your emails, all your PMs, receipts, EVERYTHING. You paid him a large sum of money for a specific service. He did not perform the service you requested. As long as you have a detailed enough agreement in writing, he's liable for fraud. I hope you kept your emails/PMs from the initial contact.

 

This is not official legal advice. I'd recommend talking to a lawyer first to make sure your case is presentable before sending him this PM. I'd talk to one as soon as you possibly can. Don't let this sit. The longer you wait, the harder it's going to be to resolve your dilemma.

 

Sorry for the awkward first post. I've been lurking for a while. Nobody really gave him a direct answer, so I thought I'd step in.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Deaden

[madmax4x4 68]

Yuk 1100.00 at best for the work but it will always look like A$$. I didn't wait that long for my Tromix S17 and payed less. Feel bad for ya man I hope it works out. If not maybe you can have it fixed and refinished. AT least refinished

[joelrod47 373]

.

[selph arms llc 14]

[BobAsh 582]

It's a nice offer but considering that this customer paid for a premium product, the original vendor really needs to make this right.

[Deaden 30]

Yup, it's not yours or anyone else's responsibility. It's the guy who charged you all that money. Judging by the way he's acting with communication, I'd highly recommend setting up the legal footwork to secure your investment. Don't do anything to the gun in the meantime. Don't shoot it, or have anyone else fix it. Just keep it safe until after you talk to a lawyer. If you have a presentable case, send him that PM I stated above (or whatever message the lawyer tells you to send, I'm sure it will be something similar). If he responds, send it back.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Deaden

[bigj480 203]

It's a nice offer but considering that this customer paid for a premium product, the original vendor really needs to make this right.

 

Yeah, but that may never happen. A BIG +1 to Selph Arms for the very generous offer.

[BobAsh 582]

Maybe, but if you refinish them elsewhere it's guaranteed you won't get it fixed by the builder.

[Deaden 30]

He shouldn't have to spend any more money than he already did to get the weapon he asked for. That's why I suggested legal action. If you have the evidence to prove he said he'd give you one thing and he gave you something else, you're pretty much guaranteed your money back (or maybe even the weapon you wanted in the first place). As with any legal matter, though, talk to a lawyer first (which may cost a bit, unless you have a friend studying law). I only suggest talking to a lawyer since I don't know what evidence you have. You just need a lawyer to tell you if you have a case and tell you how to take action, so you can assure yourself that you have the legal leverage to get him to fix his mistake or the law will. If worst comes to worst, you'll need to settle it in small claims court.

 

I hear you're not the first person to wait years for a conversion from these guys. If you do get a refund, go with Tromix or Red Jacket.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Deaden

[basscat 10]

I would like to thank everyone for their input.

 

Especially I'd like to say thanks to TROMIX and Selph Arms for your offers (both offered complementary work to help me out of this rough situation). Needless to say, but in this day and age you just don't see that kind of generosity anymore.

 

Here's a bit of history. Back in March of 2008 I joined this forum after finding it linked from another forum (precious metals). After doing my own DD, I decided on a custom conversion from TROMIX. But at the time Tony was swamped with work and he was issuing ticket numbers on the forum regarding what he was working on. I estimated it would take 2 years for him to complete all of those builds and I really wanted something now. That's the funny part because apparently he fulfilled all of his orders in a timely manner and the original 8 week promise from the other builder turned into 23+ months. Well anyway, that's why I went with E-TAC. He had some remarkable pictures of completed conversions and the feedback on this forum was extremely positive AT THAT TIME. Other than those two items I really had nothing else to go off of and I felt confident in my decision. Remember we had a different president back then and most of the shelves at our ammo stores, including Wally World, were empty. So it made sense for me to go ahead and secure an order before armageddon arrived

 

Ok, so the update is this: Esteban did call yesterday. He cannot offer a refund because he doesn't have the money (his words). He gave me his word (insert value here) that he'll be the only person working on my gun. Supposedly some other people that previously worked for him performed the conversion. Needless to say I was outraged, but not surprised. I explained thoroughly that you can't teach someone to become an artist. You either have it or you don't. Based on the pictures from 2 years ago it was that "art" of his craftsmanship (or the true creator) that I sought and paid for and only expected his hands to touch this gun. He assured me that he would stop all work and immediately put his attention on my conversion. It is a giant leap of faith and I audibly made this known.

 

Esteban said he'll have it ready in 2 weeks. The UPS gal picked it up 2 hours ago. He subtlety hinted to using his proprietary rail in place of the Ultimak rail. He said others who chose the Ultimak rail regretted doing so because they wanted to make changes down the road and found it near impossible because once adding the Ultimak rail, he noted, it was more of a permanent accessory and made changes very difficult. I explained that for this price tag I had no desire to add or remove accessories. I mean what else could you possibly do after spending $2.3k ? I could be wrong, but I suspect this Ultimak rail and the labor required isn't as cost effective as going with the subtlety hinted proprietary rail.

 

He stated that the FUBAR paint job was not his creation or idea. He also stated that it was his failed responsibility to check the gun before it left the shop. Needless to say I'm being diplomatic here when it's not really necessary. He said it will be completely stripped down and refinished and he'll add the proper amount of hardener to this Lava Shield to give it a more glossy finish like the one I originally referred to. He also stated that he would paint the grip to match the rail. I voiced my concern regarding chipping and flaking when you paint over plastic. He assured me it would not chip and flake. He said obviously it could be scratched, but it wouldn't start peeling. He also assured me that he would oversee the fine tuning of the gun and make sure it cycled properly with various loads.

 

I ended the conversation with "I want you to be proud of this work as if you were giving it to a relative. I want to see your best. I don't want anyone touching this gun other than you. I want a masterpiece. I want something that's not only incredibly attractive, but I also want it to function flawlessly."

 

He assured me it would be fixed correctly and I'd be happy with the work.

 

There were more explanations for the delays and all of the things happening behind the scenes that I believe he was being truthful about. It doesn't justify any of this one bit. But at least for once I felt he was being open and transparent.

 

So I will definitely report back to this thread with pictures and a thorough review.

 

No, I'm not holding my breath. I'm a pessimist and a see it to believe it kind of guy. Faced with the available options I feel as though I made the best choice. But then again I felt the same way 23 months ago and we see what that got me. There really was no choice but to send it back.

 

Never thought I'd say this, but I hope we don't change presidents again before I get this back

 

Basscat

[elvis christ 451]

Well, good luck, man.

[selph arms llc 14]

I am happy to hear that Esteban is standing behind his product. And for the lava shield I use the same product from NIC and the mix ratio can be tricky depending on the humidity; just keep us informed and if you have any problems you might want to talk to the forum owner Mack.

[KC913 324]

He said he didn't have the money to give you a refund? What about the money he's making from all those other conversions that he's supposedly setting aside while he fixes yours? Although it sounds like a bullshit story, at least he's offering to make it right in a short period of time. I hope you get everything you originally envisioned, and then some. Hell, for the time and money wasted on what you received, he should gold plate that thing and install diamond sights.

[bigj480 203]

He said he didn't have the money to give you a refund? What about the money he's making from all those other conversions that he's supposedly setting aside while he fixes yours? Although it sounds like a bullshit story, at least he's offering to make it right in a short period of time. I hope you get everything you originally envisioned, and then some. Hell, for the time and money wasted on what you received, he should gold plate that thing and install diamond sights.

 

I think he hasn't gotten many new orders and he has a cash flow problem. He is likely focusing on selling parts so he can have SOME income. Whether this is causing him to neglect uncompleted builds has yet to be seen. All I know is that I'm ready to complete my transaction. Good luck, basscat. Please keep us updated.

[Deaden 30]

Seems like he came around. Hope you get what you were looking for. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

There's no doubt in my mind that he doesn't want to offer a refund and he wants to "fix-it".

 

I simply don't trust the guy. He might be able to produce the gun I envisioned 23 months ago, but I couldn't be very proud of the history required to get it. And that's a big "might be able to".

 

 

What say you?

 

Basscat

 

I would demand a full refund. All of his "well, I thought you could...." BS from him is just that; BS. When it comes to a $2,300 project that had very specific details of what you wanted, there's no room for his "Well I thought...." stuff.

 

He didn't provide what you paid for, or what you were expecting. A refund is the only option, IMO. Otherwise, like everyone else said...........who the hell knows how long it's going to take him to "fix it"?

[basscat 10]

Unfortunately I don't have good news to report.

 

I shipped via UPS 2nd Day Air on Tuesday, May 25th.

It's gonna be hard to meet a deadline when your store isn't open.

 

UPS Tracking:

 

HONOLULU, HI, US 05/28/2010 11:18 A.M. THE RECEIVER'S LOCATION WAS CLOSED ON THE 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 3RD DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE

05/28/2010 4:55 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY

HONOLULU, HI, US 05/27/2010 11:04 A.M. THE RECEIVER'S LOCATION WAS CLOSED ON THE 1ST DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE

 

While I'm still dreaming this fairy tale that'll never come true, let me propose a question and if you feel confident please respond.

 

The gun will have the Ultimak rail painted OD-Green.

The SAW grip will be painted OD-Green.

 

I am considering adding a vertical grip. So it would be wise of me to consider color. Clearly I won't be able to match this OD-Green unless E-Tac paints it. I could simply use black. Would that look stupid having an OD-Green pistol grip and a black vertical grip?

 

Basscat

[selph arms llc 14]

If you get the gun back because the box was undeliverable, you can contact the shipper and have it redirected to me and I will take care of you, just use the address in my signature line. Let me know, the offer is still there if you decide to use it.

[Garys4598 1,065]

basscat -- An update please? Last you posted, UPS hadn't confirmed that E-Tac GoGun had received your S-12.

 

~Gary

[Rabid Robert 74]

Now all you guys, hold your horses,

 

I agree the customer has a gripe that it is not exactly like he thought it was going to be.

And I agree that he has a gripe that took too long, but it seems part of that was due to wrong spec of parts by customer.

 

There are least two and possibly three parts mentioned in your build list that were either unavailable or unsafe or have been know to fail. Esteban will just not mount unsafe parts.

 

As for the color, I think it looks WAY cool and exremely custom and is for sure lava shield. They gave you great deal on paint, which should normally run north of $300 for multicolors I know they will do any color you want if you specify exactly, since you only specified some parts they artistically gave you a unique look on the ones you didnt.

About the flat black remark. Flat Black is use by most Saiga Converters, and looks good for a while and very cheap, but it looks lousy and wears poorly.

 

About the comment that Lava Shield is just duracote, no it is cerakote and the gogun shop is cerakote certifed. Lava Shield/Cerakote (when properly applied and cured) is extremely durable and corrosion resistan.

 

About the gripe on the Tapco Rail. You didnt order it but you got it for free right? AND you got a tactical top rail to also, so you got what you paid for and more.

 

And your overall prices are about what all that stuff costs. Seems like all you missed was checkered safety which relatively easy fix.

 

Buttom line

So yes, it took way too long, and not exactly as you ordered but safer and upgraded from price you were quoted and looks way cool.

 

Why don't you tell us how it shoots? If you like it, but dont like the color scheme, just specify a new color scehme, get your extened safety and you are good to go.

Surely not the best customer service and shooter frustration for sure, but other than that sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

Although I am with the company anymore, I know the side folders got hung up for a while, because there were reported failures with some of the systems out there and Esteban took longer to design the battle tough parts system he is using now. Acutally you have a better settup and safer than what you ordered.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Rabid Robert

[RS12 7]

Everything Esteban did is better, eh? Reference the pics on page 1. Extremely Custom? That gun looks like hell. Even if it shoots like a wet dream I would still be enraged at having spent so much money and having a gun that looked like that. But maybe that's just me. And putting that Tapco rail and handguard on a $2000+ gun... BLASPHEMY! Nothing less.

[Rabid Robert 74]

Everything Esteban did is better, eh? Reference the pics on page 1. Extremely Custom? That gun looks like hell. Even if it shoots like a wet dream I would still be enraged at having spent so much money and having a gun that looked like that. But maybe that's just me. And putting that Tapco rail and handguard on a $2000+ gun... BLASPHEMY! Nothing less.

 

A little harsh, you have not even seen it and say it looks like hell, sounds like piling on to me. I have never seen a gun leave Esteban's hands that "looks like hell". They are ALL fine quality. And EVERY gun I have seen Esteban put out for 15 years is a work of art, that's why folks want him to do their stuff.

 

We just dont know how from the posts how the color scheme got decided, but I think it looks very original. I can infer from the posts he got talked out of the cheap, like most other smiths do, flat black spray paint, and did not get charged for it. Flat black spray looks great until you use it or abuse it. He got a custom durable paint job practically for free and then got disapointed the colors were not like he thought.

 

About the specs, what would you rather have, a great gun that shoots well or something you speced that is unsafe? There are quite a few well known Saiga Smiths that put parts that fail on their guns.

 

We have not heard one word about the quality of the weapon, but I bet it is like all other GoGun parts and guns, battle tough.

 

If it were me, and customer complained about a lava shield color scheme that he did not pay for, I would fix it by bead blasting it and spray paint with rattle can flat black like most of the other guys out there do, but I dont think Esteban will.

 

Like I said, it was delayed which is legit gripe, but customer speced parts that were unsafe and it took a while to remedy that.

Others have said this brand or that brand is "better". I have seen them, and IMHO NOBODY builds a saiga as good as Esteban, period.

 

Let's get real folks, if you want a one of kind custom gun, you are going to pay for it and wait. If you dont like the price or the wait, buy one that's already built. There are plenty of those available.

[jdtravers 637]

Everything Esteban did is better, eh? Reference the pics on page 1. Extremely Custom? That gun looks like hell. Even if it shoots like a wet dream I would still be enraged at having spent so much money and having a gun that looked like that. But maybe that's just me. And putting that Tapco rail and handguard on a $2000+ gun... BLASPHEMY! Nothing less.

 

A little harsh, you have not even seen it and say it looks like hell, sounds like piling on to me. I have never seen a gun leave Esteban's hands that "looks like hell". They are ALL fine quality. And EVERY gun I have seen Esteban put out for 15 years is a work of art, that's why folks want him to do their stuff.

 

We just dont know how from the posts how the color scheme got decided, but I think it looks very original. I can infer from the posts he got talked out of the cheap, like most other smiths do, flat black spray paint, and did not get charged for it. Flat black spray looks great until you use it or abuse it. He got a custom durable paint job practically for free and then got disapointed the colors were not like he thought.

 

About the specs, what would you rather have, a great gun that shoots well or something you speced that is unsafe? There are quite a few well known Saiga Smiths that put parts that fail on their guns.

 

We have not heard one word about the quality of the weapon, but I bet it is like all other GoGun parts and guns, battle tough.

 

If it were me, and customer complained about a lava shield color scheme that he did not pay for, I would fix it by bead blasting it and spray paint with rattle can flat black like most of the other guys out there do, but I dont think Esteban will.

 

Like I said, it was delayed which is legit gripe, but customer speced parts that were unsafe and it took a while to remedy that.

Others have said this brand or that brand is "better". I have seen them, and IMHO NOBODY builds a saiga as good as Esteban, period.

 

Let's get real folks, if you want a one of kind custom gun, you are going to pay for it and wait. If you dont like the price or the wait, buy one that's already built. There are plenty of those available.

.........................................

I try to stay out of these things but THIS IS CRAZY!! The professional thing to do is pick up a phone and discuss the changes with the customer if the builder has a problem with parts and such and get an agreement from the customer. You just don't take it upon yourself to change parts and finish without permission from the customer. My god, I have never heard such bull shit before and I have been involved with the gun building industry for 30 years.

 

If you think the gun looks good, you ought to buy it from Basscat so he can get his money back and start over. Personally I think it looks like shit and so does the customer. Who cares what you think!! It ain't your gun!!

 

Besides, there is nothing one of a kind or "CUSTOM" about this gun. It has been assembled with off the shelf parts.

 

Correction, the paint scheme is "One of a Kind", I don't think anyone else would want it.

 

Jack

[Garys4598 1,065]

Dudes, the gun was received BACK into the E-Tac GoGun shop a few weeks ago, so as to how it would have (or will) shoot, is kinda moot at this point. Rabid Robert -- You don't have your facts straight from information basscat has mentioned (either within this thread, or my thread): Esteban reportedly did not inspect the weapon prior to its shipping. . . and although I could be mistaken (this obviously would be for basscat to comment to) with this particular GoGun build, Esteban performed very little of it. . . or perhaps it was just the lava shield painting portion that he had no personal involvement with; again that would be for basscat to convey, based on the telephone conversation he had with Esteban just over two weeks ago.

 

 

Personally, that OD Green paint against the surrounding black, with FDE colored furniture makes me gag.

 

Regardless, IMHO everything Jack (jdtravers) stated above is absolutely "spot on!"

 

~Gary

Edited June 22, 2010 by Gary

[basscat 10]

Gary is correct. Esteban has been in possession of the gun since June 1st after 3 failed attempts to deliver via UPS (guess 4th time was the charm). I did receive a phone call from Kelly (described in Gary's thread), E-TAC employee, about 10 days ago and he said it would be ready in 2 weeks (this week?).

 

Has anyone here ever tried to type while intoxicated? You know, forced to close one eye so it reads correctly? That's the way I felt while reading Rabid Robert's responses.

 

Talk about being uninformed. Wow! Maybe he needs to close one eye too so that he can see that paint job a little better? He stated that he's no longer with GoGun. Esteban said the guy(s) who did the work on the gun are no longer with him. Coincidence?

 

As promised, I will provide a thorough review once the gun has been returned to me. I think most can agree that I've been objective thus far. I will form an opinion after receiving the final product.

 

Basscat

[BobAsh 582]

I try to stay out of these things but THIS IS CRAZY!!

 

Agreed, what a nightmare.

 

For the record, I don't know any pro builder that uses a "rattle-can" finish so that is just plain hyperbole.

 

All the professional builders that I've ever met or talked to use a baked on finish.

[Donkismash 81]

this just confirms what we all know...E-tac,Go-gun takes REALLY good pictures of some S-12's and has/had marketing skills right up there with Arsenal...but when you put Tapco stuff on a $5-$600 shotty then charge $2000+ you are raping people

 

and as far as the best smith out there....go fuck yourself on that one

 

ever heard of Will(Red Jacket),Tony(Tromix),or Ted Marshall just to name a few...IN Range is one more

 

as far as custom work...you have some insanely expensive CNC/mills and you are having trouble making stuff with them???

 

I do own a E-tac/Go-gun shotty....I purchased it when you had them on Gunbroker...did a nice job on it..

 

nothing special...welded TG and reworked the ports + a Cerakote flat black(holding up extremely well)

 

I have since sold the Tapco furniture it came with and it now is waiting on some wood...I paid $750 for it...fair price

 

but being a smith is a lot more than turning out products...gun people are fucking crazy...you CANNOT jerk them around...do you think we do not notice when you delete threads from you business forum..and I do know you pay for that space...but when you delete honest complaints then post pics of the Magpul guys sporting your products you are spitting on your customers...

 

back to your Custom products

 

looks like Ultimak had the idea for that style of rail first..not to mention the back plate or the puck

[Garys4598 1,065]

. . . Has anyone here ever tried to type while intoxicated? You know, forced to close one eye so it reads correctly? That's the way I felt while reading Rabid Robert's responses.

 

Talk about being uninformed. Wow! Maybe he needs to close one eye too so that he can see that paint job a little better? He stated that he's no longer with GoGun. Esteban said the guy(s) who did the work on the gun are no longer with him. Coincidence?

Not meaning to digress, but. . . THAT'S some funny, poignant shit right there.

 

[Rabid Robert 74]

My, My everybody is so quick to jump on the blame game.

 

Remember we have only heard one side of the story, and I admit he got poor service but he has to share some of blame for insisting on unsafe parts that Esteban simply wont do.

 

Most of the long delays at GoGun and there havent been many are due to customer changing mind or specing a part not avaialable or deemed unsafe or incompatable. There are few seeming like Brass cat, that is if they cant have it exactly their way, make everything into a big deal.

After a while and a lot of burned time on phone communication suffer and customer get shoved to back of line. Then he whines about complimentary extra work to GoGun offes to make up for inconvienience

 

Now the pics, He says not like pictured, well, he ordered not like pictured. Then the issue of quality, he says it looks poor, where? The customers pics are terrible and don’t show much detail but what I did see all looks like good work. I I did not see anything on the poor pics that look wrong or poor quality. Can some of the guys who dis the pictures say exactly what is is they don’t like or makes is look like hell. Seem everything done correctly to me

 

Then he blames Esteban for UPS not delivering. UPS has a lot of problems delivering in Hawaii, but some how that’s Esteban’s problem. Folks who have spent time in Hawaii know that deliveries are frequently screwed up in Hawaii, no surprise there.

 

One gunsmith said there was nothing custom and just assembled from everyday parts, How wrong and far from the truth. Many of GoGun’s internal and structural parts are proprietary GoGun, nobody elses. There are many custom features including GoGun signature trigger guard and vertical charging handle and extended mag release just to name a few. And Nodbody in the business makes a stronger backplate for folders period. And although there is a variability of gunsmith quality reworking the internals in the industry. GoGun internals are smithed to very high degree.

 

Now lets get to nitty gritty. To my knowledge, no GoGun part whether it be pistol, rifle or shotgun or assembled Gogun work has ever failed, Perfect record PERIOD. And I am sure Esteban does not want to give that up by building something that will fail. One of the Gunsmiths who seems to be dissing Esteban in this forum has reported failures of their products repeatedly and he is dissing Esteban?

 

One more thing, folks are whining about price. But notice there is a very long list of extras and they are fairly priced, he just added a lot of options ergo higher price.

Any of you smiths out there charge significantly less than any listed options at a comparable quality level?

 

Let’s get to bottom line here, Customer is not satisfied, we all agree.

Esteban built a kick ass gun that the customer does not like the color, but never the less is battle tough. Esteban is now fixing what the customer does not like, the color. So Esteban is standing behind it even though it is customer who made things difficult. Now where is the big deal?

Edited June 23, 2010 by Rabid Robert

[selph arms llc 14]