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Bullet guide installed and 30rd bulgarian mag will not seat


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This is my first post and first of 2 Saiga conversions. I installed a bullet guide from Dinzag on my Saiga 5.45. It was quick and painless. I have Romanian and Bulgarian 30rd mags and they will not seat properly with the bullet guide in place. I thought they should drop right in. Do the mag feed lip area need to be relieved to fit the bullet guide or do I adjust the bullet guide/lower receiver mag catch area itself? The front half of the mags will not engage the lower receiver properly. I used a drill press and the bullet guide is correctly installed. Please advise. Thanks everyone!

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Can you take a pic down the receiver so we can see how it looks- with and without the mag?

 

I just installed a bullet guide from Dinzag in my 5.45 and my Bulgy and Tapco mags fit fine, with no grinding or anything.

Edited by dussandr
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I have no bullet guide and I have only had two FTL's so far in approx 300 rounds fired out of the rifle. Both have been the final rounds from the magazine and I am suspecting they are from the same magazine.

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I found with mine that placement of the bullet guide was crucial. If you seat it in all the way under the barrel, it doesn't extend far enough to bridge the gap from the magazine to the breach. If you go too far from the breach with it though I imagine you could interfere with how it feeds or how the mag might seat.

 

pictures will tell the tale..

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I put mine just about even with the breach entrance and checked with a mag before I marked the hole.

 

Sounds like your a hair out into the mag well.

 

Pics would help. And its fixable...

 

Unscrew adjust by viewing with tha mag inserted.

 

Either you can drill the hole underneath wide and just screw/nut it down or somepeople have JB'd theres in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The factory mags require the front "lip" of the mag to be removed when the BG is installed. I found that 3 out of 4 of my surplus mags also required just a touch of filing on the top front of the mag to latch in with the BG in place. It was less than a couple of minutes and very little metal removal with a swiss file on the glitchy mags. The Saiga 10 rounder required the whole front lip to be taken down to empty follower plate level.

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This is my first post and first of 2 Saiga conversions. I installed a bullet guide from Dinzag on my Saiga 5.45. It was quick and painless. I have Romanian and Bulgarian 30rd mags and they will not seat properly with the bullet guide in place. I thought they should drop right in. Do the mag feed lip area need to be relieved to fit the bullet guide or do I adjust the bullet guide/lower receiver mag catch area itself? The front half of the mags will not engage the lower receiver properly. I used a drill press and the bullet guide is correctly installed. Please advise. Thanks everyone!

 

With a loaded mag held in place (I know it will not snap in), try to feed a round by hand (with bolt and carrier out) does it look like the bullet tip will go into the chamber or hit the lower rear of the barrel? This is important to determine if the guide is to low. Try it and let me know.

 

Trust me!

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This is my first post and first of 2 Saiga conversions. I installed a bullet guide from Dinzag on my Saiga 5.45. It was quick and painless. I have Romanian and Bulgarian 30rd mags and they will not seat properly with the bullet guide in place. I thought they should drop right in. Do the mag feed lip area need to be relieved to fit the bullet guide or do I adjust the bullet guide/lower receiver mag catch area itself? The front half of the mags will not engage the lower receiver properly. I used a drill press and the bullet guide is correctly installed. Please advise. Thanks everyone!

 

 

Had the same problem with the Dinzag bullet guide, mine was installed all the way under the barrel as far as it would go and surplus mags would not lock in. The problem is the BG sticks out to far and you need to file it a little. I am impatient so pulled mine out and took a little off on the bench grinder then reinstalled and it worked fine. Start with taking about 1/16th of and inch off the end towards the magazine. Hope that helps.

 

Sorry after rereading my post it should have been grinding material from the bottom of the BG. The BG should overhang into the mag, just remove material from the bottom of BG that increases the amount of step that Dinzag already started.

Edited by NinerRider
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Correct me if I'm wrong, the bullet guide should not extend into the mag well? Presently, the bullet guide sticks out about 1/8" into the mag well area even though I installed it as far under the barrel as it would go. Should the bullet guide be gtound down so it doesn't extend beyond the edge of the lower edge of the mag well? Should the edge of the bullet guide end facing the mag well be even with the lower front edge of the mag well? Thanks everyone.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, the bullet guide should not extend into the mag well? Presently, the bullet guide sticks out about 1/8" into the mag well area even though I installed it as far under the barrel as it would go. Should the bullet guide be gtound down so it doesn't extend beyond the edge of the lower edge of the mag well? Should the edge of the bullet guide end facing the mag well be even with the lower front edge of the mag well? Thanks everyone.

 

 

That is exactly what I posted above an my experience with the bullet guide from Dinzag. If you look at the bottom of BG that would make contact with the magazines you can see that Dinzag has already relieved the BG to create a step if you will. Just enlarge that step until it doesn't stop the mags from locking up. Again don't grind the end but the bottom of the BG, the BG should overhang the magazine thus guiding the bullet from the mag into the chamber. The mag will not lock up if the BG is to thick.

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i used the "sheik" method and made my bg out of a pipe nipple...its even with the edge of the (front)trunion works with all mags i have tried...polish metal and plastic, bulgy plastic, metal of all sorts(30's) a couple 40's, and my factory 10rd mag...... might be something to look at or into....if it sticks out too far maybe shorten it a little....

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If you look closely at military bullet guides you will see they extend over and into the mag. They also sit higher than the Dinzag guide. Big difference is they also include 2 separate guide ramps on either side. Look at the photos on the K-Var site. The Dinzag design is quite different, not that it is bad, but height is just as important as extension. If your trunnion is lower as mine was, the Dinzag will NOT work as is. This is one of the AK tolerance issues that we've seen elsewhere.

 

The reason I asked you to check how a cartridge feeds, is if the trunnion is machined lower the cartridge still will not feed right (it will hit the rear of the barrel just below the chamber). Yes my drill and tap job was sweet.

Yes the magazine will not fit the front.

Yes if you push a cartridge forward out of a mag held in place it will hit below the chamber. No you don't want to grind down the extension that juts out into the magazine.

 

I had prolonged e-mail discussion with Brian about this and he thought it was a variance in the trunnion milled area.

 

OK, what to do? First a simple experiment, take aluminum foil and make a shim that can fit under the guide when the guide is screwed into place. This will raise the entire guide (its all right a there is a lot of room between the bottom of the rear of the barrel and the bullet guide that fits under it. Now try a magazine, does it now fit? (bet it does)

 

When I did it my mag fit well but the bullet hit the back of the barrel. I added more about 4 layers and I'll be damn , everything worked fine but the guide looked like it sloped upward from the front to the back.

 

Brain wanted to make me a custom guide but I told him I thought I could fab up a spacer out of steel and take care of it myself. I did and it did and after a couple hundred rounds it seem fine.

 

Does Dinzag need to make a variety of thicknesses? How can he manage that? If there was an easy way to measure it maybe.

 

Brian does not know my spacer worked as I wanted to shake it out before I told him. If you saw my post shooting the steel plate that was with my spacer modded bullet guide.

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I grabbed a photo of the 5.45x39 bullet guide from k-var site hope that ok?

 

as you can see it has two small ramps (like AR has in receiver)

 

Also you can see it sticks out into the mag area.

 

Ignore the extension on the left side. The original AK74 used this to start bolt rotation. The current design uses a round stud stuck in the side. All Saiga's and AK74 are like that.

 

Frosty

post-11604-12748987276964_thumb.jpg

Edited by Fluid Power
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Fluid Power,

 

 

As advised, I handloaded a round from the mag (before loosening the screw and the bullet guide) from the partially seated mag and as it rode on the guide, it struck lower than the barrel chamber. I can see it would still feed under force, but it would probably misfeed occasional rounds and definitely be ammo sensitive. My Saiga 5.45 trunion is apparently machined lower like yours.

 

Knowing that, I knew I could not avoid loosening the bullet guide...I wanted to avoid that because I used red loctite. After heating up the retaining screw with a mini torch and loosening the bullet guide, I was able to seat the bulgy mag.

 

Now that we know the problem, how do I remedy it? The shim necessary appears thin. Perhaps I can use aluminum from a soda can cut to size, drilled for the bullet guide retaining screw and layered to lift the bullet guide to the appropriate height? Another material option?

 

I wonder if the hole I tapped for the dinzag guide will work with the K-var mil-spec bullet guide ( left side bolt guide removed)? I can see how the ramps on the bullet guide would aid in proper cartridge feed.

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Kali,

I used a striker plate from an old door knob kit, this is the plate in the door jamb that the knob bolt goes into. I have dims that I need to find. The soda can is not a bad idea, I thought about it but wanted steel. My intention was to create the spacer and report back to Brian as he stated he would provide a correct guide that fit. I just wanted to wring it just to be sure it was correct. I'll take photos and dims later today.

 

Thanks,

Frosty

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Ok, after shooting today I found the bullet guide was loose! Well it worked great and I did not put locktite on the screw threads. I'm not sure I will have Brian at Dinzag make a new guide? I am worried this one will not stay tight due to the shim. So I pulled it out.

 

Attached are photos of the shim. What would you do? With the shim the guide works perfect!

post-11604-12752720679007_thumb.jpg

post-11604-12752720782288_thumb.jpg

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I notified Brian about my problem. He advised to either place a washer under the guide or I could send the bullet guide back to him to have additional material removed from bottom half of the bullet guide that extends into the mag.

 

If material is removed from the guide, mags will seat, but reliable feed will be questionable. I was hoping the shim would be the answer. Brian did not offer to machine a taller guide to me.

 

Now that you have the dims of the shim, maybe he can utilize them to machine the additional height into a bullet guide that will fit our trunions. Brian indicated that I was the third person to bring this issue to his attention. Technically, a taller bullet guide can be reduced to fit taller trunions easier than to add shims to adapt to lower trunions.

 

One solution that may work but may not be popular is to JB weld the shim to the bullet guide and loctite it on.

 

Can the shim be made to the full length of the part of the bullet guide that rests on the trunion, that is, extending underneath the barrel as the bullet guide does. If not, perhaps a combination of removing some material from under the bullet guide that extends into the mag and shimming (extending under the barrel) may be necessary........

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That's not good about Dinzag! He told me (in e-mail) he would machine up a new guide!

 

The thing I liked about the shim is the guide looked the same (angle wise) as when it was installed without the shim. Of course it was taller with the shim. My problem I noticed with the stock guide was it was to low, in my rifle, to properly feed the rounds. Also it helps having other 5.45x39 rifles to compare it to. If he relieved the area to accept a magazine, it would still be to low and the bullet tips would smack into the lower rear of the barrel (under the chamber).

 

If you look at my suck ass photos (need a camera that can take good closeups!) you will see that one end is slightly thicker than the other. That is on purpose as the end near the magazine must be slight higher. I have JB Weld the only worry I have is it might make it thicker. This is really dialed in just the way I have it. I know Loctite has a bushing lock liquid as well, might try that also. First I'll get a hold of Brian for a final answer either way.

 

Frosty

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I notified Brian about my problem. He advised to either place a washer under the guide or I could send the bullet guide back to him to have additional material removed from bottom half of the bullet guide that extends into the mag.

 

If material is removed from the guide, mags will seat, but reliable feed will be questionable. I was hoping the shim would be the answer. Brian did not offer to machine a taller guide to me.

 

Now that you have the dims of the shim, maybe he can utilize them to machine the additional height into a bullet guide that will fit our trunions. Brian indicated that I was the third person to bring this issue to his attention. Technically, a taller bullet guide can be reduced to fit taller trunions easier than to add shims to adapt to lower trunions.

 

One solution that may work but may not be popular is to JB weld the shim to the bullet guide and loctite it on.

 

Can the shim be made to the full length of the part of the bullet guide that rests on the trunion, that is, extending underneath the barrel as the bullet guide does. If not, perhaps a combination of removing some material from under the bullet guide that extends into the mag and shimming (extending under the barrel) may be necessary........

 

 

Maybe I am missing something but it took me all of 5 minutes on a bench grinder and hand file to get the mags to seat properly. As for feeding issues I have put over a thousand rounds through the gun with no feed problems at all, many times we are dumping the mags as fast as we can pull the trigger. I agree Dinzag should make this right and for what he is charging for that crappy piece of Aluminum these things should install themselves. To me I just make things work, it is way to much hassle to call send it back and wait for a new design, just grind that bitch.

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It took me all of 5 minutes to file the front lip of 5 magazines and they all fit perfectly with my Dinzag BG as installed. The variations in height in trunions makes it impossible to make a "one size fits all" BG and it took removing as little as the paint, with very little metal from the front lip of the mags with a jeweler's file, no more than a minute each. Just shot 170 rounds through my converted Saiga using all the mags yesterday with not a single feed or function issue. After modification, the mags fit perfectly in my second Bulgy build (with "OEM" curved and riveted BG) and also shoot without a hitch.

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It is not unusual to find variations in trunion height in Ak's. However, Fluid Power and mine are on the low side. To further verify this,I went ahead and modified the stock saiga 10rd mag to work with dinzag's bullet guide, the cartridge tip would hit the lower edge of the barrel chamber when feeding (3mm). As I said before, this may cause failure to feed, especially as the edge of the bullet guide begins to wear in.

 

Blkgunlvr, I'm glad I didn't ruin a mag to verify this. It's nice to know it will still work with other AK's and my saiga when I get the bullet guide squared away.

 

Technically, all surplus mags especially Bulgarian ones should seat reliably in an AK without modification, save for a few like Romanian and Chinese variants. I don't really want to have mags that only work with my gun and others, but not the other way around.

 

I'm waiting for Fluid Power to respond with his inquiry with Brian-Dinzag.

 

For now, I ordered a bullet guide from K-var for upclose comparison and to tinker on. First, I have to remove that bolt guide on the left and hopefully nothing more.....

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Nrider,

The way I found out about the Trunnion was lower than normal was the following:

 

After installation of BG I could not insert Mil Surp Mag

 

I loosened the BG until I just was able to install the Mil Surp Mag

 

I then hand fed rounds (no bolt, just used a wooden pencil to push rounds for safety) and they would not clear the back of the barrel as noted before

 

I then made a shim with aluminum foil to raise the BG to the point I could reliably feed rounds with the pencil

 

I contacted Brian (via e-mail) and he claimed he had seen this before and he asked me for dimensions

 

I took photos and made measurements as best I could and e-mailed it to him

 

Brain said he would make modded BG to meet the proper dims

 

I told Brian I would make a metal shim to verify the dims and try it at the range

 

I just shot two range sessions to verify dims

 

Next move up to me (I have no bad or negative things to say about Dinzag! This has been a process and the balls in my court)

 

I have half a mind to use my steel shim but it is a service to inform Brian about this

Edited by Fluid Power
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As with Fluid Power, I don't want to rant on Dinzag! I don't want to say or infer anything negative about Brian. He provided invaluable and top rate service and advice when I was having issues threading my barrel.

 

I believe that the solution to my bullet guide issue is the same as Fluid Power's and hence it may be addressed in the same manner (machining of a taller b.g. or getting that shim and existing b.g. to stay put). Brian did offer me to return my b.g. to have it machined/ material removed so mags will seat. As Nrider would validate, such a solution will work on Ak trunions like his. I believe he offered this solution to me prior to speaking to Fluid Power about the shim solution on even lower trunions.

 

I admit, I had to read Fluid Power's first and second post several times before I realized and understood what he was saying. Thanks Frosty!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ok, after shooting today I found the bullet guide was loose! Well it worked great and I did not put locktite on the screw threads. I'm not sure I will have Brian at Dinzag make a new guide? I am worried this one will not stay tight due to the shim. So I pulled it out.

 

Attached are photos of the shim. What would you do? With the shim the guide works perfect!

 

Hell, Sorry I never followed up on this! Summer is so busy! After I was sure the spacer was correct, I could not find my damn Loctite Red so------------

 

I said the hell with it and opened the JB Weld, cleaned all the surfaces and epoxied the spacer and guide in place and screwed in the supplied Allen head screw. Let it cure and Shazam!

 

Last time out I was rocking and rolling!

 

I'll try to get some decent photos.

 

Frosty

Edited by Fluid Power
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