What should replace the M-16 and its variants?

[superA 289]

6.5 grendel uppers with 18" barrels, mags/ammo and ship'em as fast as they can make'em... 75% of the problem(s) solved, make those uppers piston and 95%+ of the problems are solved.

Do away with the archaic rules against HP ammo and we're just about golden

 

 

 

Of course the easiest most sensible solutions will never be used. Yay politics & bureaucracy!

 

 

 

Grendel even makes a piston upper. I'm still not sure if a piston is needed but beefing the bolt up would be nice.

Provide a high quality piston upper and there'd be less problems with sustained fire overheating... Granted of course, they need to stop using those USGI profile barrels, go to a midweight profile.

 

 

 

True. I wonder how cheap 223 AR's would get if they went to another caliber?

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I'm imaging the price drop on 1000rnd cases of 5.56

[volkov 318]

lol, would be funny.. 5.56 diehards would dry up pretty quick if even the military abandoned the round.. plenty of .223 uppers and ammo to go around I'd think.... and NATO would be pissed at us for forcing them into a crappy round and then bailing on it.. sounds good to me

[TonyRumore 1,332]

It's not the arrow......it's the indian.

 

Tony

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

If the problem is the round and not the platform - why not start making 7.62 X 39 uppers? They have been available for years, and there are several companies that make them, so it's not like the military has to reinvent the wheel.

 

I also think the OP's suggestion for a US made AK clone is a great idea. A superior weapons platform is a superior weapons platform. Period.

[Kenny Stowe 5]

If the problem is the round and not the platform - why not start making 7.62 X 39 uppers? They have been available for years, and there are several companies that make them, so it's not like the military has to reinvent the wheel.

 

I also think the OP's suggestion for a US made AK clone is a great idea. A superior weapons platform is a superior weapons platform. Period.

 

 

There are many voiced/documented issues regarding the platforms reliability as well as the caliber that date back to its first use in South East Asia and the complaints are still stacking up. What used to be a heated issue amongst military arms collectors, Vets, and bloggers have a new group chiming in, the US Army. This is what makes the situation shift gears from a debate amongst the upper military officials to creating a solution to fix the isue(s).

 

I enjoy my DPMS 308(1000+ with out one FTF/FTE) but have never seen it perform in extreme conditions and don''t plan on dumping sand down its action anytime soon either. My Chief tells me stories of the side arm transition from 1911 to the 9mm Berreta and how it brought many emotionally charged arguments from E-1 to O-9 representing both sides. This transition will most definitely create the same atmosphere but hopefully the outcome will produce a better rifle for our brothers stationed abroad.

 

 

[raidersfan_5544 57]

"It's not the arrow......it's the indian."

 

That is very ture a 5.56(arrow)will get the job done within a limited range if the shooter(indian)does his part with good shot placement. I still think a more effective caliber is needed for longer range shots and up close lethality. I would rather have too much than not enough.

[VanKiller 322]

M-14s and Napalm would be the easy answer.

 

Just take a look at some of what they are doin to those old girls......I mean the 14s, hard to improve on a F-4 screamin overhead with a bunch of fire being the end result..............

 

OK, don't anyone forward this post to the VA clinic............

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Keep your fingers crossed that this new attitude continues and once again our troops will be sporting good 30cal weapons once again. One thing that many miss is the cover penetration of the 308(or to a lesser extent x39) even in common FMJ, AP rounds will take out a blasted truck engine block. Stop gap fix of course would be new uppers using a small piston bolt in 308. Long term something based on the FAL using improved materials to get the weight down makes sense but I will almost bet HK gets the nod.

[patriot 7,197]

Replace?

 

Sure! When energy weapons become practical.

[superA 289]

Keep your fingers crossed that this new attitude continues and once again our troops will be sporting good 30cal weapons once again. One thing that many miss is the cover penetration of the 308(or to a lesser extent x39) even in common FMJ, AP rounds will take out a blasted truck engine block. Stop gap fix of course would be new uppers using a small piston bolt in 308. Long term something based on the FAL using improved materials to get the weight down makes sense but I will almost bet HK gets the nod.

 

 

 

You can't just switch out uppers to the .308, if that's what you meant.

[ironhead7544 35]

Steyr Scouts in 260 Remington with the proper ammo and 20 round mags. M14 in a lightweight version in 260 Remington. Piston ARs with 3 locking lugs in one of the 6.5 calibers. I like the M14, had one in basic 1969, but the recoil was too much for probably 65% of the troops. Scores improved a lot when the M16 was used. Thats one of the reasons it was adopted. Concerning the forward assist on the M16 series, it was for letting the water out of the barrel. It was not supposed to be used as a hammer to get a round chambered.

[Ermac 8]

Steyr Scouts in 260 Remington with the proper ammo and 20 round mags. M14 in a lightweight version in 260 Remington. Piston ARs with 3 locking lugs in one of the 6.5 calibers. I like the M14, had one in basic 1969, but the recoil was too much for probably 65% of the troops. Scores improved a lot when the M16 was used. Thats one of the reasons it was adopted. Concerning the forward assist on the M16 series, it was for letting the water out of the barrel. It was not supposed to be used as a hammer to get a round chambered.

The recoil was too much? Soldiers used M1 Garands in WW2 and Korea without any problems. The Aussies used the L1A1 and didn't complain about it. Maybe it was the dumbing down of our soldier's training rather then the weapon. I suppose water getting stuck in the barrel might be a bigger problem for smaller diameter bores?

Edited June 8, 2010 by Ermac

[ironhead7544 35]

Steyr Scouts in 260 Remington with the proper ammo and 20 round mags. M14 in a lightweight version in 260 Remington. Piston ARs with 3 locking lugs in one of the 6.5 calibers. I like the M14, had one in basic 1969, but the recoil was too much for probably 65% of the troops. Scores improved a lot when the M16 was used. Thats one of the reasons it was adopted. Concerning the forward assist on the M16 series, it was for letting the water out of the barrel. It was not supposed to be used as a hammer to get a round chambered.

The recoil was too much? Soldiers used M1 Garands in WW2 and Korea without any problems. The Aussies used the L1A1 and didn't complain about it. Maybe it was the dumbing down of our soldier's training rather then the weapon. I suppose water getting stuck in the barrel might be a bigger problem for smaller diameter bores?

 

I was there. It was pitiful. Many of the draftees had never even fired a BB gun let alone a 7.62x51. I thought the training was good. I easily fired expert. Yes, water in the barrel is more of a problem for the small bores due to capillary action. Another problem is that the M16 will not always close after partially extracting an unfired round. That meant the round had to be ejected, often ending up on the ground. Then put back,dirty, into the mag. Not good for the m16. BTW, I was a 45B20 Small Arms Repairman for 3 years in a depot shop.

[Kenny Stowe 5]

Steyr Scouts in 260 Remington with the proper ammo and 20 round mags. M14 in a lightweight version in 260 Remington. Piston ARs with 3 locking lugs in one of the 6.5 calibers. I like the M14, had one in basic 1969, but the recoil was too much for probably 65% of the troops. Scores improved a lot when the M16 was used. That's one of the reasons it was adopted. Concerning the forward assist on the M16 series, it was for letting the water out of the barrel. It was not supposed to be used as a hammer to get a round chambered.

 

The Steyr chambered for the .376 would pack a punch! May reduce Mag size or increase weight though! I dont know if the Army is looking for the best existing platform to fit their needs or a new platform completely.

 

 

 

 

Left to right: .308 Win, .350 Rem Mag, .376 Steyr, .375 H&H

[JK-47 33]

The m4's are sporting these shorter barrels to make it easier to manuver in confined spaces, humvees, entering and exiting vehicles. The M-16 has that silly buffer tube and spring that prevent it from using a proper folding stock. If you can relocate the recoil spring so that these guns don't need a buffer tube and can use folding stocks instead, the weapons can be even shorter- OR you can put more efficent-for-caliber barrels back onto them, 16" or 18" for the 5.56mm.

 

that or go for a caliber that will be able to efficently use a 11.5" or 14" barrel.

[Iorn Man 1]

762x39

[SirROFL 13]

It seems like the recent attempts at replacing the M-16 have been 80% AR, and 20% AK. The SCAR, for example, has an AK-like long stroke piston. But why haven't we tried the other way? Why not an Americanized AK?

 

I realize the platform isn't perfect, but imagine a Krinkov-esque PDW chambered in 5.7 or 7.62. Use the platform for what it does best.

[ljarmy84 3]

The Assault Rifle was designed to engage targets at an intermediate range not out to 1,000 plus meters. I can tell you from experience the M4/M16 is not bad at all for ranges up to 300 meters. But at those ranges an M14 sounds to be more of an answer for a temporary solution. Too bad the M2 is so heavy because the Ma Deuce will always do the trick. Not saying the 5.56 is awesome, its just not designed to be used at that distance

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Perhaps it's time to think outside the box and design something totally new. A true AR-AK hybrid, but with a caliber that will exceed expectations. Even if we tried to Americanize the AK, I don't know how much better we could make it. One could argue that what we do to our Saiga's is Americanizing, but the improvement is good at best. Piston powered like the AK is definitely the way to go, as well as it's ruggedness. But what could you incorporate from an AR-style weapon to increase it's range and accuracy? If you're wanting to use something bigger than .223 then most parts such as barrels, upper receivers, etc are useless unless chambered for a different caliber. I'm not a weapons designer, but I'd most likely study the various calibers out there before I even attempt to build such a weapon. Once I've narrowed it down to the caliber that is relatively multi-purpose being effective at close range, and being effective and accurate at longer ranges, I'd then begin the process of building a weapon that would be rugged, light, reliable, and accurate. Granted, things like barrel length and overall weapon design will yield new results with that caliber that might be worse than what was originally tested with an already existing weapon. It's just a matter of trial and error to find that sweet spot, it just doesn't seem like the big guys are doing much to innovate what we currently have.

[MN.9130 44]

In my three years dealing with the AR system, every single time I've gone to qualify I've been handed an "Armory Fresh" weapon that goes "BANG!" when I move the trigger forward after a shot on semi (instead of "Klunk!" when the sear resets). This was deeply disturbing the first time, and it's now become a festering wound. Call it local incompetence on my armorer's part, but I've developed a deep distrust and dislike as a result. I used to be all for the HK 416, but that really only solves the direct-impingement problem, and leaves me worried about bad lowers, sand-fouled receivers and all of the other same issues. I like the idea of updated FAL/SIG 55x/SCAR-H to replace the -16, but would support something like the IMI Tavor (Politics, though! Politics!) to replace the -4 for those who don't need the firepower anyway.

 

-Spoken like the POG I really am.