Kilryth 0 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) I have an 18" Mossberg 500 pump action, and contrary to popular belief.. pump actions are not 100% reliable. The magazine tube's follower locked up and would not feed rounds. It took a couple minutes of pushing and shoving at different angles to get it to unfreeze. I would hate for this to happen in a HD situation, so it is now locked away. Unfortunately, I rely on my handgun for HD now. I wish I could rely on my SAIGA 7.62, but overpenetration is too much to worry about. Should I replace my Mossy 500 for a converted SAIGA 12? Reliability is a key factor here. The other thing is range use. Honestly, my Mossberg 500 only sees 1-2 dozen rounds before it gets boring to fire at the range. It's so easy to hit the target, and you can't tell what each shot hits. Slugs are about the only way it's any fun, but the recoil limits me on # of shots fired. I doubt the SAIGA 12 will be as much fun as the 7.62 at the range, but is it more fun than a pump action? Keep in mind that my range doesn't allow rapid fire.. they got onto me for "rapid firing" a pump gun... I wish land was cheaper here.. BTW, does the S-12 reduce anymore recoil than a traditional pump action 12 gauge? I realize there is a huge difference in recoil between different shells. I wasn't sure if the recoil assembly or gas-piston system made a difference. Edited June 2, 2010 by Kilryth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SICARIO 26 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I have an 18" Mossberg 500 pump action, and contrary to popular belief.. pump actions are not 100% reliable. The magazine tube's follower locked up and would not feed rounds. It took a couple minutes of pushing and shoving at different angles to get it to unfreeze. I would hate for this to happen in a HD situation, so it is now locked away. Unfortunately, I rely on my handgun for HD now. I wish I could rely on my SAIGA 7.62, but overpenetration is too much to worry about. Should I replace my Mossy 500 for a converted SAIGA 12? Reliability is a key factor here. The other thing is range use. Honestly, my Mossberg 500 only sees 1-2 dozen rounds before it gets boring to fire at the range. It's so easy to hit the target, and you can't tell what each shot hits. Slugs are about the only way it's any fun, but the recoil limits me on # of shots fired. I doubt the SAIGA 12 will be as much fun as the 7.62 at the range, but is it more fun than a pump action? Keep in mind that my range doesn't allow rapid fire.. they got onto me for "rapid firing" a pump gun... I wish land was cheaper here.. I don't think you'll have any regrets getting the S12. It's a blast to shoot, a blast to tinker/convert, and it's very reliable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) If you're thinking about going the S-12 route, you may need a little tweeking to get it working perfectly. All the info is available on this forum. Some are dependable out of the box, some are "vodka specials". Lonestar sells guarenteed S-12s that he tests & he does all the tricks & more on all his guns to ensure reliability. If you get a brand new one & it has issues, the warranty work should get it up to par for most loads (just not the weakest) The S-12 can be extremely dependable, but it's a crap-shoot. However, EVERY S-12 can be made to be extremely dependable. Edited June 2, 2010 by Paulyski Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 What are the least reliable parts of the S-12? I saw something about some having some rough spots in feeding/ejecting. Is this the main issue? How does the recoil on an S-12 compare to a pump action? Does the recoil assembly and gas-piston system make much difference in terms of recoil? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Kilryth, Have you got some sort of obstruction in the mag tube? Or is the follower not sitting correctly? This should be a fairly easy fix and may be as simple as a new follower, follower spring, or both. However, my vote is to get the s-12. It's a lot more fun to shoot and mine has been ultra-frickin reliable but I'm limited to an out-of-the-box s-12 since I live in New Jerseystan. It sucks that your range has those restrictions because you're going to want to see how quickly and accurately you can dump a mag. Hope that helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigalupo 1 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Get a remmy 870 now and a saiga 12 later down the road. It might be boring but if you want to defend yourself and your fam then it really doesnt matter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I own both and can say without a doubt that I enjoy shooting my converted S-12 over my mossy hands down. The weapon is a blast to shoot. I also belive that cobra customs does bolt work to increase relibality. That being said, there is also a wealth of info here on spotting and fixing potential problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I fixed the problem for now, but I just don't trust the design anymore. I couldn't find any aftermarket parts that might prevent the problem, such as a longer spring or a beefier follower. Even if I replaced the spring & follower, I'd still be a bit concerned. If it happened that one time, what if it happened again at the worst time? I couldn't just switch magazine tubes... I'd have to use the gun as a bat! Off-topic: I also cannot find a safe method of storing a pump-action that is safe and ready to go. I sleep walk, and I don't want to be able to access my guns too easily while sleeping. At the same time, I don't want it to take too much time to ready a gun in case of a break-in. I was not comfortable with any pump method I found. I like having a ready to go gun & mags locked up though. It requires being awake enough to realize I need ammo, to have enough motor skills to unlock a small box, and to rack & load. It does suck about the range. I don't really understand the point of it at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) What are the least reliable parts of the S-12? I saw something about some having some rough spots in feeding/ejecting. Is this the main issue? How does the recoil on an S-12 compare to a pump action? Does the recoil assembly and gas-piston system make much difference in terms of recoil? The people with the real big issues got guns that were made with undersized ports. The next issues have to do with American mags. There are ways to fix all those too, or just buy Russian mags. AGP is the most reliable american stick I've found so far. The bolt work helps too. Many of us (myself included) chased our tails fighting undersized ports by reducing friction, then measured our ports & found them to be too small. With mine, once I enlarged the ports, being as I addressed every other issue & reduced friction everywhere on the gun, I'm able to run any type of ammo & run high brass or low brass on the drum without ever having to change drum-spring settings. It's VERY dependable. As for sleep walking, unless you sleep-rack, just leave the bolt locked back, or leave the chamber empty & a slug up top so it doesn't deform against the bolt like buckshot does. If you think you're going to rack one up & whack the wifey-poo "in your sleep" , I would suggest a marriage counselor or divorce attorney. Edited June 2, 2010 by Paulyski 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacSat 90 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Just got rid of my Mossy 590 for an S12. best thing i did. I had all the bells and whistles on it including recoil reduction. Plus you get the fun of converting it and knowing it inside and out. as far as recoil on the S12 00 buck 2 3/4 and 3 in no problem. 3in mag loads you will feel. Edited June 2, 2010 by TacSat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I wouldnt suggest getting rid of any gun, Im a big fan of keeping and buying more. I would suggest if the Mossy is still under warranty getting in touch with Mossberg and get them to take a look at it. Mossberg customer service is great and their guns have a 10 year warranty. It may just need some thing worked on. Save up and buy you that saiga if you want one. Keep that Mossy in storage, it might be worth some thing one day. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyrostevo 2 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 The recoil is nothing like a pump. Not nearly as sharp a pain as pumps. There's still a good amount of recoil thanks to the big ass bolt smashing back and forth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Thanks for the tips guys! Paulynski, that's a lot of helpful info. I know you were just joking; but in all seriousness, the subconcious mind is underestimated. I couldn't imagine anything worse. Glad to hear the recoil is much better. I may not get rid of my Mossberg since it was so cheap. Edited June 2, 2010 by Kilryth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geepelton 105 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I bought my saiga12 used for $375.00. It had an FTE issue. Plus someone had put some inferior parts into it. I posted what problems I was having on this forum and everyone help me to fix it. With a little time and no money I can dump 12 rounds in less two seconds, freaken awesome. I guess what I'm trying to say is if it not reliable out of the box don't worry, there are plenty of people on here that will help you out. I would really recommend get one, you will not regret it at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I may have to get one of these things. Darn! Does anyone sell warsaw style converted shotguns for a reasonable price? Similar to how Arsenal converts the rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PVT Pablo 25 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Kilryth, my first shotgun I owned was a mossy 500 with all the accessories (pistol grip, front and back, folding stock, and a red dot). I sold it to get the saiga 12 and I've NEVER regretted it. I agree the mossy got boring to shoot but I've my saiga for almost 2 years and I still love it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raidersfan_5544 57 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 "I wouldnt suggest getting rid of any gun, Im a big fan of keeping and buying more" +1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tram 11 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 If you wanna sell it, let me know.. I bought the wife a Saiga but she wants a pump.. Figures.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) If your Mossy can do this .... you should keep it. Edited June 3, 2010 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geepelton 105 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 LOL, I agree with him.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Unfortunately, youtube is filtered on this computer. I saw a few saiga 12 vids already, and I can only assume that the video involves some serious rapid fire! The select fire video was really cool, although I don't know how accurate a 2-3 round burst would be! It seems like the recoil recovery time is twice as fast as a pump. Living in an apartment, a semi auto might make birdshot a practical HD round without overpenetration worries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
garandman 11 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) To me, the Saiga 20 has all the "home defense" a person will ever need. EXCEPT for mag capacity - factory 5-rounders are about all that is presently available. But there's a fella working on aftermarket 8 rounders. Fact is, racking the shotgun in a real world home defense scenario will end the confrontation 80+% of the time. When shots are fired, its typically only 2-3 rounds fired. While the 12 ga drums and 10+ round mags have a high "gee whiz" factor, they are cumbersome / heavy, and would not be my choice for self defense. Also, you WILL answer in court for having a drum mag on a HD gun - either in criminal or civil court. Their attorney will demonize it as a street sweeper, and you as a homicidal maniac. If it helps you to stay alive, that may not matter much. Life is full of decisions. The Saiga 20 has a very mild recoil. I can shoot 30+ rounds at a single session, and have no shoulder discomfort at all. I'd say either a handgun or a Saiga 20 will meet you HD needs. Edited June 3, 2010 by garandman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raidersfan_5544 57 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) "The Saiga 20 has a very mild recoil. I can shoot 30+ rounds at a single session, and have no shoulder discomfort at all." I can shoot hundreds of shells without any discomfort through my Saiga-12? Edited June 3, 2010 by raidersfan_5544 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I like the 12 gauge because it's the "standard" and it's not going anywhere. I agree that 20 is all you need though. I think you went a bit over the top with the argument against drums though. The thing I DON'T like the drum for (in a practical sense) is the amount of bulk & weight it adds. It's definitely a cool toy, but I'd probably stick with a couple 8-shell mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Don't get rid of the Mossberg... Just get a rifled barrel for it, and make it a dedicated slug gun... thats what I did anyway... If something needs a sabot, I have the mossberg. For everything else, Theres my Saiga-12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kilryth 0 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I really shouldn't be spending anymore cash on another gun anyway. I need to quit looking at all these guns... it only makes me want to buy and/or trade my older ones. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 My 500 still is set up for HD, but just hidden in a different part of the house. I've been trying out some Centurion 2" buck shot in it, and they cycle perfectly. You only get 6 00 buck pellets instead of 9, but you get 7 in the mag instead of 5, so it's a trade off. And before someone asks......yes, they'll work in a Saiga 12 too, but there would be no real advantage to using them, except perhaps for the very top round in a mag, to allow easy mag insertion on a closed bolt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=544FSOBxhE0 Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
z16kalel 4 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 For five minutes and $11 dollars you can have a new follower and be done with it. Check Brownells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I would never replace one gun for another unless they were comparable, for example: Replace Mossy 500 for Rem 870 or vice-versa. I did not replace my Mossy, I just added a Saiga to the space beside it, they really get along well together. To answer your questions, yes, the action of the S-12 soaks up a LOT of the recoil. I do 12 shell mag dumps, hitting accurately, in about 5 to 7 seconds, there are others here who do it faster. A lot of it has to do with your stance but the action does soak up a LOT of the recoil... I would trust my Saiga-12 for home defense now that it's good and broke-in, but you have to understand that ANY weapon can jam. A semi-auto will jam eventually (especially if it's German, lol), a pump-action can jam, hell I've seen double-barrels and single shots jam (they don't want to open after firing). The thing to train for is clearing them smartly or grabbing another weapon. I might be a little on the paranoid side here but when the wifey and I lay down our heads for peaceful slumber there are two identical pistols within reach of both of us, her double-barrel double-trigger 12 gauge is on her side of the bed and on my side I have the Mossberg Security 500, the Saiga-12, the AR-15, and an SKS. All are locked cocked and ready to rock! In the mornings we clear and safe all the weapons and go about our merry ways. We do this because weapons fail, they are mechanical therefore they fail. Now I've NEVER had a problem with my Mossberg 500, but that isn't to say that I never will. Personally, I'd fix the ailing Mossy, run the action with snap caps or expended ammo from full mag tube to empty about 25 times, and if it didn't fail then I'd feel comfortable trusting it when I sleep. There is a general rule that some prefer to follow, it's the old saying that: Two is one, one is none. Some prefer to apply this rule to weapons of the same type or model, but I prefer to apply it to firearms in general. If you have someone break-in and you KNOW that you and your woman will fire to defend your home then you already have an advantage because you are a team of two shooters who are in a defensive position and know your surroundings well. I prefer to say that Seven is one, less is none, but that isn't really that catchy... :lolol: What I'm trying to say is, any firearm, even if it's only reliable for one shot, should be available for the HD situation... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 My 500 still is set up for HD, but just hidden in a different part of the house. I've been trying out some Centurion 2" buck shot in it, and they cycle perfectly. You only get 6 00 buck pellets instead of 9, but you get 7 in the mag instead of 5, so it's a trade off. Um, is that muzzle device welded on? Answer carefully... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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