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Cracked Front Trunnion after AR Mag mod

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Hey Guys....

 

So the fun thing about having a Saiga is the mods we can do to them.

 

One that I recommend we stay away from is milling down or Dremeling down the trunnion as well as the mag well to allow the adapter. After approx. 800 rds I began to get shells ripped apart inside the chamber. (See pic)

 

I asked a question to a member on this site he recommended to get it looked at by a gunsmith, plus I searched the net for any info on this subject mainly head space and timing.

 

After further inspection I realized that the trunion was cracked (See Pics) which should explain why the expended cases were not properly extracted.

 

I welded up the trunnion and put some extra welds where I dremeled down for the conversion to re-enforce the area.

 

Today at the range She fired like she used to till about the 13th round when I got a hard jam. (the trunnion cracked again) Thus causing the expended round to sheer off in the chamber and feed another round into the partially lodged round. I cleared the round, fired two rounds and the same failure.

 

Bottom line dont F... with the TRUNNION....... if you plan to fire a bucket load of rounds. It will fail due to degrading the metal.

 

So now I am looking for a new trunnion to replace my modified AR mag adapter mod. What type of trunion should I be looking for will a regular AK 47 (7.62x39mm) or do I need to be specific with the 5.56x45mm my barrel is 23mm I know K-var has them along with a few other places.. Thanks for your input on that question.

 

One Last thing... it doesn't matter who or what adapter I used nor do I want to talk S** about it... I am only warning about the damage that will result from this mod.

 

:super: Have a good one.

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WOW. Well, this is the first I've seen of this. It looks like a LOT of material was removed from that trunion.

 

As far as a replacement, you'd probably want to use an AK-74 style trunion as the saigas use the same 22mm barrel trunion rather than the AK-47 and AKM's 23mm barrels. Be aware that your serial number is recorded on your trunion, not your receiver. therefore your trunion is registered as the firearm, not the receiver. Most likely all you can do legaly is remove your parts from the old receiver, and either destroy the receiver itself- or keep the old receiver and trunion joined, then go ahead and build yourself a new gun witha new trunion on a new receiver, such as an NDS. the NDS-2 EZ will probably suit you with the least work.

 

http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm

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Interesting...

 

So the Trunnion attached to the receiver makes it the weapon... if the trunnion is replaced the rifle is no longer the orginal serial number, which would have to be re-registered (with the new trunnion), and the old/cracked listed as destroyed...

Yes/ NO

 

 

I also thought if I did get a replacement I would have the serial numbers transfered to the new one... if it was blank. I know at work we have AKs from overseas, that are restamped with US markings/numbers.

 

Thanks for your imput.

Edited by RLTW

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Well, imagine my surprise when I log on just after completing the install of my AR mag adapter... ><

 

Soooo, anything in particular that you may have done/not done in those 800 rounds - also who did the work for you? What types of ammo were you putting through it? Has anyone else had this happen?

 

Obviously too late for me to go back now, but any details on the conditions surrounding the failure would be good.

 

(Truth be told, even if I had seen this post earlier I probably would have still pushed forward)

 

That sucks man, hope you get a new trunion sorted out soon.

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WOW. Well, this is the first I've seen of this. It looks like a LOT of material was removed from that trunion.

 

As far as a replacement, you'd probably want to use an AK-74 style trunion as the saigas use the same 22mm barrel trunion rather than the AK-47 and AKM's 23mm barrels. Be aware that your serial number is recorded on your trunion, not your receiver. therefore your trunion is registered as the firearm, not the receiver. Most likely all you can do legaly is remove your parts from the old receiver, and either destroy the receiver itself- or keep the old receiver and trunion joined, then go ahead and build yourself a new gun witha new trunion on a new receiver, such as an NDS. the NDS-2 EZ will probably suit you with the least work.

 

http://www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm

 

 

I thought the Serial # on the rifles was on the receiver. The Serial# on the shotguns is on the front trunion. I don't have either in front of me to confirm.

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I know a guy who can prob fix this no prob... but then maybe not...

 

too bad about the serial numbers though, a $30 bulgarian ak74 trunnion is a direct replacement. :cryss:

Edited by vladimir zagumennyy

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The BATFE will consider the part with the serial number as "the gun". So while many consider the receiver "the gun", when it comes to Saigas which only have a serialized trunion and not a serialized receiver- consider either just the trunion/ or BOTH trunion and receiver as "the gun".

 

It gets confusing because if you wanted to build an AK from scratch, the receiver is the serialized part, and you can throw whatever surplus trunion (with whatever serial number engraved on it, matching or not) into that build- the receiver will be the registered part and the trunion will just be like any other non registered spare part, same as a buttstock or a front sight or insignificant rivet.

 

So to take your saiga down to its component parts, consider the trunion and (possibly also the receiver) as one registered firearm. Since the Trunion is cracked and no longer good for much (possibly a blowback style AK, but I digress) I would keep it and it's receiver together. Either keep them as proof you did not deface serial #'s, or have it demilled/destroyed legally by an FFL or law enforcement agency, so that the destruction is recorded and keep a document to that effect. This is maybe a little overkill, but with this stuff it's smart to be safe.

 

Ok, so once you have the component parts of the rifle seperated out, you can build anew- using a new trunion whose serial number does not matter, and a new receiver which will be considered the registered part, (the gun). You could go so far as to match trunion serial number to the receiver, but this is not mandated. This will be an entirely new gun, the receiver of which will have been registered by the manufacturer and transfered to you through your FFL.

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What if he buys a FLAT and were to install the USED trunnion (or a new one)??

 

If he NEVER sells it or transfers it isn't it like building your own from scratch..??

 

Then he should be covered as far as SN not being on it?..

 

Or maybe he could also send to a 07 and have them swap the trunnion and SN the trunnion when installing?? I dunno..

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I'm assuming there is a law against re-engraving the SN on the receiver? Or engraving a trunnion with the original SN.

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css.

 

didn't another guy on here (or somewhere) have a new build put together with an old trunnion that was pen-etched.. he then had someone emboss the trunnion with the new number (which came out awesome).. may have been the AKForums..??

 

I don't see the difference between this and building a new rifle from a flat.. you legally own the original piece..

 

I'd go with new trunnion for $30 and see if they just send it to you in the mail without the FFL involvement (its like a parts kit I think)??

 

Then just buy a etch-pen engraver from AC Moore and match the number to your factory one.. I don't see HOW this would be improper.

 

At least then he doesn't have to toss the WHOLE rifle in the trash. which would suck. IMHO.

 

I dunno.. anyone else with 01 or 07 licence or any 'builders' on here??

 

Waffen or Van Killer or Tony etc.. would be helpful..

 

On another part of the question.. get a matching trunnion and bbl from someone.. 22mm or 23mm just make sure it all matches brother.:super: we don't need no BOOM's on here..

 

The other note is you can plunk down another $350 for a new 223 and skip ALL the above headaches..

 

 

standard legal disclaimer..

I am not a licensed FFL and suggest HEAVILY calling one for this matter.

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whatever you do, but if you re-build, don't try to use a 23mm akm trunnion, the 74 style bolt you have will not headspace with the 23mm trunnion, and your barrel is 22mm....

Edited by vladimir zagumennyy

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css.

 

didn't another guy on here (or somewhere) have a new build put together with an old trunnion that was pen-etched.. he then had someone emboss the trunnion with the new number (which came out awesome).. may have been the AKForums..??

 

I don't see the difference between this and building a new rifle from a flat.. you legally own the original piece..

 

I'd go with new trunnion for $30 and see if they just send it to you in the mail without the FFL involvement (its like a parts kit I think)??

 

Then just buy a etch-pen engraver from AC Moore and match the number to your factory one.. I don't see HOW this would be improper.

 

At least then he doesn't have to toss the WHOLE rifle in the trash. which would suck. IMHO.

 

I dunno.. anyone else with 01 or 07 licence or any 'builders' on here??

 

Waffen or Van Killer or Tony etc.. would be helpful..

 

On another part of the question.. get a matching trunnion and bbl from someone.. 22mm or 23mm just make sure it all matches brother.:super: we don't need no BOOM's on here..

 

The other note is you can plunk down another $350 for a new 223 and skip ALL the above headaches..

 

 

standard legal disclaimer..

I am not a licensed FFL and suggest HEAVILY calling one for this matter.

 

PM sent.

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You really don't EVER want to deface a serial number. You also don't want to make a new gun with the same make, model and serial number as one that aready exists- the duplicate serial number is also a big no-no. pretty much only a manufacturer can do something like that, and only if they properly dispose of the original with that number.

 

The old trunion is the problem- so why would you want to try to re-use it? Also what is so special about that particular serial that you'd want to preserve it?

 

indeed he could build from a flat w/o a serial... IMHO its just so much easier to buy a perfect receiver, serialed and ready to go for 85$ +.

 

lastly, I recomend against removing any serial info or re-stamping, electro penciling or otherwise altering extant serial stampings. It's unessecary, and only desireable if you are building a very specific replica or something where you recreate all stamps and proofs. Stamped serials will show up under x-ray and through other methods even after they have been ground from a surface.

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All this serial# is complete BS.

As I remember the long guns dont need ANY registration.

What if you buy a parts kit and build the receiver from flats? It will have no serial and you can slap on it any parts you want. No one will ask you any questions till you decide to sell the gun. Then you will have to destroy the receiver you built, but if you purchased the receiver with serial #, that will constitute the rifle.

You can safely replace the trunion, and this will not be considered and new gun manufacturing for as long as you keep the old cracked one as the proof. You dont alter the numbers, you replace a damaged part and for the compliance and record keeping keep the old one.

 

Suggesting to destroy the receiver is a sabotage.

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Thanks for all the info...

 

I really don't want to buy another then again... Heck I messed this one up so I know what I want with the rifle... Hard lesson learned... Considering my next purschase was going to be a SAIGA 12...

 

Damn it... and I just got a bunch of Promag AK-A5 mags... for real cheap... and they work great even with out a bullet guide... (of course they are 10/30 for the left coast)

 

I think I will remove the barrel assembly and trunnion, attempt to weld the cracked area and rebuild the trunnion that was milled down. If that doesnt work then I will be buying another .223... It just sucks after doing all the work and having to shit can due to some SN issue.

 

And while I'm doing this I will try to find out if changing the Trunnion to an un-serialized item can be changed if the SN is attached to the receiver... and still be legal.

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All this serial# is complete BS.

As I remember the long guns dont need ANY registration.

What if you buy a parts kit and build the receiver from flats? It will have no serial and you can slap on it any parts you want. No one will ask you any questions till you decide to sell the gun. Then you will have to destroy the receiver you built, but if you purchased the receiver with serial #, that will constitute the rifle.

You can safely replace the trunion, and this will not be considered and new gun manufacturing for as long as you keep the old cracked one as the proof. You dont alter the numbers, you replace a damaged part and for the compliance and record keeping keep the old one.

 

Suggesting to destroy the receiver is a sabotage.

 

The sounds good to me BKLYN_C ... I figured if I keep the part and the rifle.. then I should be fine, however it is only an issue if I decide to sell (which now a days don't see that happening)

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Well, imagine my surprise when I log on just after completing the install of my AR mag adapter... ><

 

Soooo, anything in particular that you may have done/not done in those 800 rounds - also who did the work for you? What types of ammo were you putting through it? Has anyone else had this happen?

 

Obviously too late for me to go back now, but any details on the conditions surrounding the failure would be good.

 

(Truth be told, even if I had seen this post earlier I probably would have still pushed forward)

 

That sucks man, hope you get a new trunion sorted out soon.

Nothing that I can think of with the rounds. firing standard 556 ball 55gr and 62gr

 

I used a dremel to remove alittle at a time till rounds would feed.I had to open up the trunnion to allow the AR mags to drop, I used a micro meter to determine depth as well as just fit.

 

Right side rounds feeding from the mag would somethimes hit the bottom of the chamber and fail to feed. I just ordered a bullet guide from Dinzag to fix that issue...

 

(which I figured out myself, then had read on the fourm it was reccomended however no mention in the last few months of having the adapter it was brought up.)

 

Now like I said.. this is my BAD... most likely I took to much off to make the adapter work, the trimming had to be done. For the price of the adapter and cost of a new trunnion, I could of had bought 6-8 mags....

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Nothing that I can think of with the rounds. firing standard 556 ball 55gr and 62gr

 

I used a dremel to remove alittle at a time till rounds would feed.I had to open up the trunnion to allow the AR mags to drop, I used a micro meter to determine depth as well as just fit.

 

Right side rounds feeding from the mag would somethimes hit the bottom of the chamber and fail to feed. I just ordered a bullet guide from Dinzag to fix that issue...

 

(which I figured out myself, then had read on the fourm it was reccomended however no mention in the last few months of having the adapter it was brought up.)

 

Now like I said.. this is my BAD... most likely I took to much off to make the adapter work, the trimming had to be done. For the price of the adapter and cost of a new trunnion, I could of had bought 6-8 mags....

 

Thanks for following up on this. Yeah, I hear you there as far as the 6-8 mags, but since I had plenty of AR ones hanging around I chose to go with the adapter as well. I was able to use a micro mill so i was able to keep things pretty even from side to side and front to back, but truth be told the amount of material I ended up removing looked very similar to yours.

 

Seems like the best deal would be to buy a new .223 if you can't add enough material to the broken trunion, and maybe swap over any parts you put on the broken one to the new one. Then use the $30 trunion to make a "new" one that you could use as a truck gun, etc.

 

Good luck.

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Nothing that I can think of with the rounds. firing standard 556 ball 55gr and 62gr

 

I used a dremel to remove alittle at a time till rounds would feed.I had to open up the trunnion to allow the AR mags to drop, I used a micro meter to determine depth as well as just fit.

 

Right side rounds feeding from the mag would somethimes hit the bottom of the chamber and fail to feed. I just ordered a bullet guide from Dinzag to fix that issue...

 

(which I figured out myself, then had read on the fourm it was reccomended however no mention in the last few months of having the adapter it was brought up.)

 

Now like I said.. this is my BAD... most likely I took to much off to make the adapter work, the trimming had to be done. For the price of the adapter and cost of a new trunnion, I could of had bought 6-8 mags....

 

Thanks for following up on this. Yeah, I hear you there as far as the 6-8 mags, but since I had plenty of AR ones hanging around I chose to go with the adapter as well. I was able to use a micro mill so i was able to keep things pretty even from side to side and front to back, but truth be told the amount of material I ended up removing looked very similar to yours.

 

Seems like the best deal would be to buy a new .223 if you can't add enough material to the broken trunion, and maybe swap over any parts you put on the broken one to the new one. Then use the $30 trunion to make a "new" one that you could use as a truck gun, etc.

 

Good luck.

Heck I wish I could have a truck gun...(I do have a 74 Scout II but that doesn't count) I just have a trunk monkey...lol.. Same here I have a shit load of mags from the preban days... yet they are only 10/30 for here in Cali... The adapter made sense and less money to maintain the same load out, as well as rebuild kits for future use.

 

Here is a pic of how I should have milled down the area to imcompass the AR mag adapter. Another user had posted it on this site... (Sorry I am not giving credit, but the mill work Rocks how it should be done.) I think it might be from Stus Off Road..

 

Have fun.. maybe mine just has shitty Ruski, steel it could have been made on a Monday (hung over) or Friday(started drinking).. Who knows.

:smoke:

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We've done this job a couple times for different reasons . With new trunnion installed , Manufacturer info engraved on reciever , old gun numbers written as destroyed . Maybe as an individual you don't have to , but I would anyway . Gun ever gets looked at they'll freak if no numbers , also , in case it ever gets stolen , how would they record it ?

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Suggesting to destroy the receiver is a sabotage.

 

Not sure what you are implying here, so I'm just going to leave it be. I guess all the opinions are moot- do what you want. If you absolutely need to know then write the BATF. Best of luck with getting your rifle back up and running.

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RLTW - Just happened upon your post this evening. I own several .223 Siaga rifles, and one of them happens to be a rifle that is built on a 7.62 X 39 Siaga receiver. The rifle, and many like it were built some years before the importation of purpose built Siaga .223 rifles. My rifle was built by a well known manufacturer/builder of AK rifles for both private and government use. I am reasonably sure that the builder switched the front trunion to either a Bulgarian or Chinese trunion and barrel. You might want to contact a licensed manufacturer of AK's to get the trunion replaced without having to destroy your rifle or receiver. The Bulgarian .223 trunion probably fits the Russian made barrels, but a manufacturer could inform you if the trunions will fit and function properly. The Siaga rifle is of course manufactured on an AK-74 receiver, in 7.62 X 39; .223. and 5.45 X 39. My own rifle which was converted from a 7.62 X 39 to .223 as I mentioned above has the original large letter 7.62 X 39 on the left side of the receiver, and stamped onto the receiver on the right side are the correct caliber the rifle was remanufactured to utilize, as well as the manufacturer. Mine was purpose built to utilize Galil mags also. Hopefully this information will assist you.

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RLTW - Just happened upon your post this evening. I own several .223 Siaga rifles, and one of them happens to be a rifle that is built on a 7.62 X 39 Siaga receiver. The rifle, and many like it were built some years before the importation of purpose built Siaga .223 rifles. My rifle was built by a well known manufacturer/builder of AK rifles for both private and government use. I am reasonably sure that the builder switched the front trunion to either a Bulgarian or Chinese trunion and barrel. You might want to contact a licensed manufacturer of AK's to get the trunion replaced without having to destroy your rifle or receiver. The Bulgarian .223 trunion probably fits the Russian made barrels, but a manufacturer could inform you if the trunions will fit and function properly. The Siaga rifle is of course manufactured on an AK-74 receiver, in 7.62 X 39; .223. and 5.45 X 39. My own rifle which was converted from a 7.62 X 39 to .223 as I mentioned above has the original large letter 7.62 X 39 on the left side of the receiver, and stamped onto the receiver on the right side are the correct caliber the rifle was remanufactured to utilize, as well as the manufacturer. Mine was purpose built to utilize Galil mags also. Hopefully this information will assist you.

Thanks Hamerforged that was very informative.. I appreciate the time you took to explain all that.

 

I have been looking online for trunnions, a few members have given me names of people to get a hold of still trying to find them online, to make the deal.

 

Now when you say the "Bulgarian .223 trunnion" you do mean 5.56 not 5.45? Because I have found a Aresnal Bulgaria trunnion at K-Var...for a 5.56x45mm but its almost a $100 bucks..

 

I have been told that the AK 74 (5.45) Trunnion is the same and will work for the diameter barrel of the Saiga.

 

Any imput would be appreciated. Thx

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RLTW - In reply; yes, I was refering to the 5.56 X 45 Bulgarian front trunion. The Bulgarian front trunion in either caliber 5.56 X 45 or 5.45 X 39 might work on the Siaga.223 in terms of barrel diameter fit into the trunion and proper lockup of the bolt into the trunion. The really expert people on this site (the manufacturers and builders who specialize in Siaga rifle builds) would be able to give you some definative facts. The reason that I recommend a manufacturer to install the "new" trunion, all be it expensive, is that manufacturers can do certain things legally that we as tinkerers and home builders cannot do, plus, the top notch Siaga builders know what they are doing,particularly in the arena of swapping trunions and fitting the barrel to the trunion. When I had the builder of the rifle I mentioned previously - convert a 7.62 Siaga to .223, (we commonly say .223, but the Siaga .223 is designed for the 5.45 X 45 military round.) that manufacturer at the time had only converted one other 7.62 to .223. I requested at the time that he build mine with a Bulgarian 5.45 X 45 barrel, and I have assumed during the time that I have owned it that the trunion and barrel were Bulgarian. The guys at K-Var could probably also address compatability, fit, and function or interchangeability of the two trunions with the Siaga .223 barrel. There are of course other factors involved, and other options, but I hope what I've mentioned will be helpful.

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RLTW - In reply; yes, I was refering to the 5.56 X 45 Bulgarian front trunion. The Bulgarian front trunion in either caliber 5.56 X 45 or 5.45 X 39 might work on the Siaga.223 in terms of barrel diameter fit into the trunion and proper lockup of the bolt into the trunion. The really expert people on this site (the manufacturers and builders who specialize in Siaga rifle builds) would be able to give you some definative facts. The reason that I recommend a manufacturer to install the "new" trunion, all be it expensive, is that manufacturers can do certain things legally that we as tinkerers and home builders cannot do, plus, the top notch Siaga builders know what they are doing,particularly in the arena of swapping trunions and fitting the barrel to the trunion. When I had the builder of the rifle I mentioned previously - convert a 7.62 Siaga to .223, (we commonly say .223, but the Siaga .223 is designed for the 5.45 X 45 military round.) that manufacturer at the time had only converted one other 7.62 to .223. I requested at the time that he build mine with a Bulgarian 5.45 X 45 barrel, and I have assumed during the time that I have owned it that the trunion and barrel were Bulgarian. The guys at K-Var could probably also address compatability, fit, and function or interchangeability of the two trunions with the Siaga .223 barrel. There are of course other factors involved, and other options, but I hope what I've mentioned will be helpful.

 

Great stuff thanks... :super:

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RLTW - I am reasonably sure that the builder switched the front trunion to either a Bulgarian or Chinese trunion and barrel..... The Bulgarian .223 trunion probably fits the Russian made barrels,......... but a manufacturer could inform you if the trunions will fit and function properly. ....... Mine was purpose built to utilize Galil mags also. Hopefully this information will assist you.

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I'm sorry but I can't let opinion pass for fact. so here's the facts, I higlighted the important stuff. :cryss:

 

FACT**** saiga rifles are based upon the ak74 rifles, ie 22mm trunnion, bolt/bolt carrier, gas block is not interchangable directly for akm parts...

 

FACT**** bulgarian 5.56 rifles are based off of the AKM profile rifle. Ie, 23mm trunnion, bolt/bolt carrier are not interchangable with the russian 5.56 rifles... In fact, a bulgarian 556 trunnion really IS an akm trunnion with a diff bullet guide.

 

FACT**** Galil 556 rifles are also based off the akm rifles. they look completely diff and the barrels aren't pinned ak barrels and the reciever is milled BUT the galil bolts are actually interchangable with the bulgarian 556 bolts.

 

FACT**** Chinese trunnions are 19mm and have nothing to do with ANY of these rifles, I don't even know why thats even a possiblity... nothing is interchanble from any other country....

 

anyways, what I'm trying to get at is that while a bulgarian 5.45 74 trunnion is a direct replacement for a saiga 556 trunnion, a bulgarian 556 trunnion IS MOST DEFINATELY NOT. the bulgarian 556 rifles are a completely diff animal. I have a bulgarian barrel i'm using for a build of mine, it profiled just like my akm barrel and is being used with an akm trunnion. I'm just trying sort through all the bullshit and put the facts straight. And no, I'm not talking out of my ass, I currently own over 30+ firearms and parts kits and projects going on right now, I've shot and built almost everything under the sun, or helped friends build for their projects, and have been through over 50+ diff parts kits and rifles... anybody who builds ak's and has extensive knowledge of the details and measurements and the diff quirks with the diff countries will tell you the same exact facts. the other thing to consider is that anybody who does this extensively also knows for a definate that for an individual removing the front trunnion (ie-defacing serial numbers) on a saiga rifle consitutes a FEDERAL felony...

 

So the above imformation really only applies if you plan on using a bulgarian ak74 trunnion AND a flat or new reciever...

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