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Range Report 200 yards..100 yards..


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Went to Fort Dix, NJ WMR range today.. Abit wet.. :super:

 

Shot 100 yards with my $65 Bushnell Trophy 1x 6 MOA Red Dot (on UTG 978 Mount)...

 

Was shooting HIGH.. I adjusted down to get target..

 

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Then shot 200 yards also... (man that 6moa dot stinks for 200 yards.. wider than the 8" target square)

 

First shots before SNC Target was added is circled in RED on the bottom.. Then I adjusted my scope up/down..

 

I also shot 6 shots while standing.. (there on the right side)

 

200 yards is a PITA with 6MOA red dot.. (oh, I wait I said that a minute ago..)

 

post-8775-089176700 1278782701_thumb.jpg

 

Overall.. VERY Happy.. :killer:

 

post-8775-013520400 1278782709_thumb.jpg

 

I adjusted back a few clicks to the right when I got home.. Going to go for 200 yards again in a few weeks and get dialed in (better)... I hope..

 

Anyone else got any 7.62x39 red dot range photos???

 

 

Albert

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i got one of the bushnell trophy red dots a few weeks ago, but it has rained on every day off i have had since. still havent got to go sight it in. do you only have a 6moa on yours? mine was 100$ and has the 3moa, 6moa, crosshair, and shotgun circle, along with recticle brightness adjustment and auto-on. if I think about it, I will bring my camera for post shooting shots.

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thanks seanb..

 

I was centered and went up.. then I couldn't see so good with my binoc's and I thought I was shooting right, I then adjusted LEFT and tagged the left side paper.... (apparently tooo far left). Then brought it back to the center..

 

GregM1.. I got the 6MOA dot only version.. I was concerned with some complaints on the multi-reticle models (not Bushnell) and that spooked me into buying the fixed 6 MOA one..

 

You can figure the outer-ring is 12" so at 200 yards most zombies/people will be TAGGED.. :killer:

 

I figure in a few weeks I'll go out and try again.. This time SLOWLY clicking to get more centered I hope.. Lol

 

Yes it would be good to see what other Red-Dots can do... Nobody ever posted RD results on here and this may be long over do.

 

I'm sure the 3 moa dot will be much better (once sighted in) for 200 yards..

 

I wasn't going to go for 200 with my Saiga 47 but figured WHY the heck NOT?!?

 

 

Al

 

 

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Went back TODAY for another 100/200 yarder..

 

At 100 I was RIGHT by 3-4 inches.. adjusted left a 2 clicks.. which is 2 inches on this RD.

 

Still was about 1" off.

 

At 200 yards I shot (before above adjustment was made) 5 rounds and was 6-8" to the RIGHT still.

 

After the above 2 clicks (at 100 yards) I ended the day with 15 rounds in about 8-10" grouping about 4" to the RIGHT.

 

So....

 

1st.. Remember to bring my spotting scope.. 2nd.. Adjusted 1 click more LEFT and 1 DOWN when I got home.

 

1 click is 2 inches at 200 yards on this RD. 1 click is 1 inch at 100 yards. 1 click is 1/2 inch at 50 yards.

 

Ordered 240 rounds of ammo last night for $63 (shipped) from sportsmansguide. Will be heading out YET AGAIN in 2 weeks or so..

 

But the 6MOA Red Dot is NOT recommended for 200 yard/meter shooting as far as pin point accuracy. .

The BG/Zombie will be DOA though.. :killer::super:

 

Like I said before though.. I got the 5.45x39 'Scoped' for 200 yards.. and this RD 7.62x39 setup for 100-150.. (now 200..)

 

Anyone else got any Red Dot shooting reports for 100 and 200 yard distances.. (or further).??

 

 

 

Albert

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Greg... I had put a post-it note on the Bushnell book cover with the NCStar 6x32 scope which has 1/4 inch @ 100 yard notes..

 

This messed me up yesterday.. I re-read the book this morning and sure'nough its 1" at 100 yards.. etc..

 

I'll get it RIGHT'ER some day.. (since covered the post-it with another.. Lol

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Went back TODAY for another 100/200 yarder..

 

At 100 I was RIGHT by 3-4 inches.. adjusted left a 2 clicks.. which is 2 inches on this RD.

 

Still was about 1" off.

 

At 200 yards I shot (before above adjustment was made) 5 rounds and was 6-8" to the RIGHT still.

 

After the above 2 clicks (at 100 yards) I ended the day with 15 rounds in about 8-10" grouping about 4" to the RIGHT.

 

So....

 

1st.. Remember to bring my spotting scope.. 2nd.. Adjusted 1 click more LEFT and 1 DOWN when I got home.

 

1 click is 2 inches at 200 yards on this RD. 1 click is 1 inch at 100 yards. 1 click is 1/2 inch at 50 yards.

 

Ordered 240 rounds of ammo last night for $63 (shipped) from sportsmansguide. Will be heading out YET AGAIN in 2 weeks or so..

 

But the 6MOA Red Dot is NOT recommended for 200 yard/meter shooting as far as pin point accuracy. .

The BG/Zombie will be DOA though.. :killer::super:

 

Like I said before though.. I got the 5.45x39 'Scoped' for 200 yards.. and this RD 7.62x39 setup for 100-150.. (now 200..)

 

Anyone else got any Red Dot shooting reports for 100 and 200 yard distances.. (or further).??

 

 

 

Albert

 

for what its worth.. and this is PURELY my opinion.. you should not be making ANY adjustments at home.. take 3 or 4 nice slow supported shots.. check group.. if group is tight but not where it needs to be adjust.. if group is loose reshoot.. only make adjustments on reasonably tight groups.. and only make adjustments when you can follow those adjustments with shots.. adjustments on the couch are not going to do you any good.. imo of course..

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  • 1 month later...

I just got back from testing out my rifle for the first time after i did the conversion and installed my red dot. my groups were HORRIBLE. out of 150 rounds I was barely managing to even hit the target. Im not really sure what the problem is. Back when I first got the gun I shot it at my buddies house in the "sporter" configuration and I was having no problem hitting football helmets with iron sights at about 50-100yards.

 

even after getting frustrated with the scope, I tried iron sights and they didn't work much better. I'm not really sure what is wrong, but I am very disappointed. at this point I would feel more comfortable going to battle with an enemy at 100yards using my black powder revolver as I am much more accurate with that.

 

any suggestions? what do you think could be causing this? is it possible that its just because im inexperienced with an assualt rifle. I did't get to try it at 50 yards because the range was packed...however I'm able to get 4-5 inch groups with my mosin nagant at 50 yards, but i'm not confident i could even come close to this with my ak...seems like a modern saiga rifle should be capable of much better accuracy

Edited by CommieGunner
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I just got back from testing out my rifle for the first time after i did the conversion and installed my red dot. my groups were HORRIBLE.

 

I am almost done evaluating Corbon Hunter 7.62x39 150 sp. Its been 3 range trips and so far I will not even bother to mention how well it is grouping at 100 yards because no one will believe me (best I ever seen period). I will hopefully have an unedited video next ime out. Scoped, benched, and with proper control comparison intervals.

 

 

If your rifle is experiencing inconsistent performance, there are a few things to check.

 

1. Any oil/grease in the firing pin hole?

2. Is the handguard changing pressure based on your hold from shot to shot/is the handguard locked down and not loose?

3. Are you holding the gun dead still and preventing the hammer strike from forward tilting the gun during trigger release?

4. Are you using shit ammo like Wolf or truely decent evaluation ammo made in the USA?

5. Is your table rest solid?

6. Is your trigger release, breathing pause, and overall send off smooth and steady?

7. Are you avoiding scope parallax which will screw up your point of aim/impact? If you don't know, learn it.

Edited by my762buzz
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yes there is oil in the firing pin hole as I oiled it the first and second time after cleaning it. I actually oiled the shit out of it with CLP because i figured the spray would be the only way to blast out any fouling that may have gotten inside. I wasn't aware that this couild affect accuracy?...should I take it to the shop I work at and blow it out with an airhose?

 

I am shooting corrosive yugo ammo so I was afraid that if I didn't get every nook and cranny that rust would develop. how do you normally clean inside the firing pin hole?

 

the handguard is a quadrail and I am using a vertical foregrip. I have a cheap BSA red dot scope which is mounted to the quadrail.

 

the range bench is very solid and has plenty of sand bags

 

as far as parralax goes...I'm used to iron sights so it could be a problem...i would think after 150 rounds i shouldve got that sorted out, though. would you reccomend buying a boresighter to make sure everything is properly sighted in? I can get one with shipping for under 20 dollars.

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yes there is oil in the firing pin hole as I oiled it the first and second time after cleaning it. I actually oiled the shit out of it with CLP because i figured the spray would be the only way to blast out any fouling that may have gotten inside. I wasn't aware that this couild affect accuracy?...should I take it to the shop I work at and blow it out with an airhose?

I am shooting corrosive yugo ammo so I was afraid that if I didn't get every nook and cranny that rust would develop. how do you normally clean inside the firing pin hole?

the handguard is a quadrail and I am using a vertical foregrip. I have a cheap BSA red dot scope which is mounted to the quadrail.

the range bench is very solid and has plenty of sand bags

as far as parralax goes...I'm used to iron sights so it could be a problem...i would think after 150 rounds i shouldve got that sorted out, though. would you reccomend buying a boresighter to make sure everything is properly sighted in? I can get one with shipping for under 20 dollars.

 

Yes it does affect accuracy.

You might need to remove the firing pin and clean out the channel. A Q-tip or fuzzy pipe cleaner might help to swab. Brake parts cleaner is all you need for the firing pin channel.

pipe cleanerOil does not compress and has a hydraulic effect of resisting the firing pin path in the closed end of the channel.The resistance is not the same every time and this causes the hammer to strike the primer at different intensities which translates to variations in ignition and this is always bad for accuracy. Even wiping the bore with oil after cleaning and keeping the muzzle face up will allow oil to creep down into the bolt hole. Its best to keep the bore and the firing pin hole bone dry.

 

Aluminum quad rail? Is is tightly locked down and not shifting? Some designs are better than others. The critical point here is how it contacts your barrel and whether it expands and puts any additional pressure against the barrel.

 

Winchester, Federal, or Corbon offer some loads that excel above typical surplus or available Russian commerical ammo like Wolf ,Bear,or Tiger.

Ammo quality makes a big difference.

 

Your personal ability to be accurate involves holding the rifle dead still, using the sights, and keeping the launch smooth as possible.

You can look down your red dot sight or a regular scope from multiple positions and point of impact changes. Parallax is a natually occuring problem with optics.

Aim point is only optics manufacturer I know of that has made their red dot sights parallax proof. To avoid this problem with your BSA, you would literally need

to keep your eye position exactly in the same place every time or force your self to with the aide of a rear scope cover peep hole.

 

Additional scope parallax can add several MOA to your group. The cross hairs look like they stay on the same spot but the rifle moving side to side

makes it obvious that the point of impact will change.

 

 

Keeping your eye in the same place every time will help you. An aimpoint red dot eliminates parallax and no worries of this.

 

Parallax is...

When the image of the target, and the reticle, are not in EXACTLY the same plane, and by moving the eye up and down... or side to side, either the target OR the reticle appears to move in relation to the other.

You might see the target move and the reticle stay still, or you might see the target stay still and the reticle move over it... both are exactly the same, and which you see, is only a matter of your OWN perception.

 

 

Many people run into these issues without understanding how to adapt for them and swear up and down its the rifle that must not be able to hit the

broad side of a barn.

Edited by my762buzz
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"4. Are you using shit ammo like Wolf or truely decent evaluation ammo made in the USA?"

 

Wolf is not great ammo, but he should be able to hit the target with it at 100 yards without any great effort.

 

Perhaps his front sight post is canted.

 

Yes I agree 100 % that hitting a paper target at 100 yards is not going to be impaired significantly by using Wolf.

I guess I am just trying to emphasize that for ultimate marksmanship performance its no where near sufficient.I have seen some boxes or Wolf Black box

in the past with crooked bullet seating and that was scary.

Edited by my762buzz
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thanks buzz that is some useful information that I had never come across before. So based on what you're telling me I have narrowed it down to the firing pin hole, which has a shit load of oil in it due to how I was "cleaning" it before. I'm going to try to remove the pin a clean all that out of there with a pipe cleaner and a q-tip.

 

I could also be my quadrail. it is a UTG and it mounts onto the rifle using a top and bottom piece that screws together in 4 places using allen screws. the mounting system seems to have rails that prevent the screws from being overtightened, but I'm not sure how well it works. it feels extremely solid, more so than the stock foregrip. based on that my only concern would be that the allen screws could be putting uneven amounts of pressure on the barrel. I'm not sure how this differs from other, higher priced quarail mounting systems. Maybe I could try switching temporarily back to the stock saiga foregrip to see if that improves anything..,I do know the rifle seemed significantly more consistant when it was in it's "sporting" configuration.

 

I don't think parralax is contributing to the problem as much, because when i switched to iron sights, it really didn't help much...I really think it could be the oil in the firing pin hole combined with my lack of shooting experience past 50 yards...and possibly the foregrip. It seemed when I was shooting it, that the recoil of the rifle wasn't consistant(thats the best way I can think of to describe it) only when I held the rifle with an extremely firm grip was I able to get the shots anywhere close to being consistant.

 

I'm going to try cleaning the firing pin, putting the saiga foregrip back on and using a boresight to get the scope at least to where the point of aim is on paper before i start shooting.

 

If that works then i'll try putting my utg quadrail back on and if it still shoots accurately I'll leave it on.

 

I'm not sure if the ammo is really a factor so much either as my groups(if you can call them that) were totally inconsistant, off by feet, not inches. I'm not so much worried about a 6" group vs a 2" group or anything like that...im just trying to get to where I can consistantly hit a man sized target at 100+ yards. I was looking forward to taking this rifle hog hunting, which would be at ranges less than 100 yards...but with the accuracy I'm getting now, I would either have to take my 12 gauge with slugs or my 100 dollar mosin nagant.

Edited by CommieGunner
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If that works then i'll try putting my utg quadrail back on and if it still shoots accurately I'll leave it on.

 

Your welcome.

 

The handguard can make a huge difference. The barrel vibrates like a piano tuning fork when your fire the gun. Changing the vibrations affects the bullet more than most are aware of.

I once shot a shotgun at 25 yards with birdshot to get a pattern and soon tried the same shot by now resting the shotgun barrel on top of a wood fence.

The wood fence board resting against the underside of the barrel caused my next pattern to launch and strike 6 inches higher at 25 yards.

This was an alarming barrel tuning discovery that has since made me very conscious of what contacts the barrel and little changes of such.

The saiga 7.62x39 factory handguard is designed to be very conductive to good barrel harmonics by keeping a consistent pressure on the barrel at the barrel gas block pin that the handguard

locks onto. This is an intended accuracy enhancement over the old style wood hadguard system.

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I just got back from testing out my rifle for the first time after i did the conversion and installed my red dot. my groups were HORRIBLE. out of 150 rounds I was barely managing to even hit the target. Im not really sure what the problem is. Back when I first got the gun I shot it at my buddies house in the "sporter" configuration and I was having no problem hitting football helmets with iron sights at about 50-100yards.

 

even after getting frustrated with the scope, I tried iron sights and they didn't work much better. I'm not really sure what is wrong, but I am very disappointed. at this point I would feel more comfortable going to battle with an enemy at 100yards using my black powder revolver as I am much more accurate with that.

 

any suggestions? what do you think could be causing this? is it possible that its just because im inexperienced with an assualt rifle. I did't get to try it at 50 yards because the range was packed...however I'm able to get 4-5 inch groups with my mosin nagant at 50 yards, but i'm not confident i could even come close to this with my ak...seems like a modern saiga rifle should be capable of much better accuracy

 

Not knowing the conditions all this is just guess work.

 

Publish the targets so some idea may be had from the pattern, you need to mark the shots as first second third etc. This is more likely to be your problem as all of us can get into habits we would rather not have and not even know it. The group pattern tells all.

 

As for the Hand-guard take a look at that gas system hanging off the barrel do you think some plastic is going to have more effect than that? Maybe a quarter MOA or so which isn't what you are discussing.

 

Do you notice any sticking of the trigger? Are you using a tight sling? All these things have to be taken care of before looking at some insignificant oil on the firing pin, packed grease maybe but a little oil isn't likely to be your problem. I use a dry lube on the FCG and bolt but that is to keep the dirt down not accuracy.

.

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All these things have to be taken care of before looking at some insignificant oil on the firing pin, packed grease maybe but a little oil isn't likely to be your problem. I use a dry lube on the FCG and bolt but that is to keep the dirt down not accuracy.

.

 

I had oil in my Remington 700 bolt firing pin hole turn my sub MOA .308 temporarily into a 10 MOA gun.

Oil in my glock 30 firing pin hole made it constantly misfire. Oil can also thicken pretty good in the winter and jam up things more so.

It attracts dirt and forms a mess in a critical area that really does not need any oil.

Yeah, it might not be causing his problem but again I wouldn't say that it is insignificant.

Edited by my762buzz
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I don't have the targets anymore but I have 1000 rounds of ammo coming in tomorrow or the next day. I will go to the range and post targets shot with both the utg and the saiga foregrip. I do notice that the saiga factory foregrip gently slides on and the only part that screws on is screwed into the receiver, never coming into contact with the barrel. the utg is more of a clamp on design and I've actually noted a mark on the bottom of the barrel where it comes into contact with it near the receiver. to me this indicates a stress point that wasn't there before...we'll see once i get to the range, though.

 

hopefully the utg isn't the problem because I really like the looks of it. advertisements for it claim that it floats the barrel and makes the gun more accurate.

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All these things have to be taken care of before looking at some insignificant oil on the firing pin, packed grease maybe but a little oil isn't likely to be your problem. I use a dry lube on the FCG and bolt but that is to keep the dirt down not accuracy.

.

 

I had oil in my Remington 700 bolt firing pin hole turn my sub MOA .308 temporarily into a 10 MOA gun.

Oil in my glock 30 firing pin hole made it constantly misfire. Oil can also thicken pretty good in the winter and jam up things more so.

It attracts dirt and forms a mess in a critical area that really does not need any oil.

Yeah, it might not be causing his problem but again I wouldn't say that it is insignificant.

 

Oil in the firing pin channel of my Ciener Glock .22 conversion gave me inconsistent ignition. Had to leave it bone dry to regain reliability. I never knew until now why that was.

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couple of suggestions:

 

The Utg quad rail you describe cannot float the barrel as it does seem to use the barrel and gas tube to hold itself in place. you may have another UTG product in mind.

 

first definitely check to make sure the handguard is snug and not loose.

 

Next it may be too tight. When in stalling mine i found that if i tighten the screw down all the way the gas tube was putting allot of pressure and creating friction on the gas piston which i am sure affects accuracy.

 

I tighten the screw in and alternating method starting at one corner and tighten screws same amount until the hand guard is snug then I pull charging and see if i get any resistants as it comes all the way back. if it does then i loosen rear two screws 1/8 turn until no resistance is felt.

 

Then i ride the handle as it closes. If the the screws are too tight up front the charging handle will not close smoothly under its own spring pressure. I back off the front two screws 1/8 turn until the charging handle does close easily. Then i open the charging handle about 1/2 inch little more and let go easy. if it doesn't close on it own you may have to loosen a bit more. Once i get them right i look at handguard front the front and make sure gaps under screws are equal. The hand guard will still be tight not come loose and will not be putting excessive pressure on gas tube.

 

I have also found once you put this hand guard on your shot will be off. look at the difference in thickness of the bottom of the hand guard vs. the OEM. you are in effect raising your front sight if you are resting on sand bag. if you take the rail guards off you will again change the front sight height.

 

 

Make sure the rail guards are staying in place. If they are shifting it will affect your shots. I went to the ladder type rail protector which brought the overall thickness of this hand guard down and eliminated this issue.

 

I like this hand guard as it seems to be the best bang for the buck for heat dissipation,not melting, lightest weight for metal type hand guard so far. I have been looking at the surefire poly handguard but haven't made the decision yet.

 

Next i have found that my groups tighten up after the barrel gets a little dirty. about 20 rounds or so.

I am finishing up that Yugo corrosive stuff so when i am done shooting i use the hot water, windex method , blow dry with compressor, then clean and oil per normal. I know it may be a little over kill but i really like this weapon and would hate to see the barrel get pitted or any part generate rust any time soon.

 

it is easier to get battle sight zero (rear sight leaf setting 100 yards) at 25 yards then transition to 100 yard target to get final sight adjustment.

 

I never make any sight adjustments unless its at the range to see its affects.

 

hope this helps.

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okay so I just went to the range yesterday and fired off another 100 rounds. I was able to get the bullet holes close enough to where they were basicly touching eachother at 25 yards on a few of my groups.

 

so I decide to put my rifle into the case so I can move over to the 100yd bench and as im doing this, the scope bumps into the case and falls off because the screws had come loose after shooting 60 rounds. I really cant reccomend the BSA RGB dot scope to anyone at any price. also, something seems to have shaken loose(or who knows what) inside of the scope and the dot will only stay on if you leave the knob stuck in between settings. once you click the knob into place, the dot disappears.

 

so I said screw it and I decided to shoot another 40 rounds at 25 yards using iron sights....the result was groups in the 3" range shooting unsupported. seems pretty shitty to me seeing how i can do almost as good with my hand gun...I also notice that now since my eye is closer to the sights there is a huge air space inside the rear leaf compared to the post size on the front sight. seems to make it almost impossible to center the front post inside of that huge space. I'm seriously thinking of replaceing at least the rear sights possibly both.

 

I'm undecided as to if i want to blow a bunch of money on a better scope. I am however considering using this rifle to hunt wild hogs with.

 

 

I think i've identified the accuracy problem a combination of a cheap red dot scope, crude iron sights and lack of shooting experience with a rifle. I didn't get a chance to try shooting the rifle with the factory saiga front grip. I'm doubting that this has much of an effect on accuracy at 25 yards. especially since neither the UTG nor the OEM are designed to "float" the barrel. furthermore I've looked at every other brand of quad rail for the saiga rifle and they all mount onto the rifle using the exact same "clamp on" system.

Edited by CommieGunner
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