Preview / Comparison Pics Of AR Mag Adapters

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok I took all these pics because there has been a heavy load of questions for a long time, from folks wanting to know exactly what the differences are between the two mag adapters. Nevermind the fact that neither has been readily available for purchase, or ready to ship. Please keep all commentary about all that OUT of this thread. The MSA adapters are now being made as fast as they can be milled and anodized. They will be (and have already been) shipping from now on. I am waiting on the ones which were promised to me over a year ago and will be receiving them next week. If I can wait that long then so can everyone else. Nuff said about all that. They are NOW being produced and will continue to be shipped to customers with back orders, from now on til everyone has what they paid for, and all the new orders will also be filled in the order received.

 

Now let's please finally put all the worrying to rest and just look at some pics of both adapters side by side. I want to show everyone here what they have been waiting on.

 

That said.... these are only PREVIEW pics. That means these two adapters are GEN 1. My MSA adapter is not even a complete unit. I have been waiting on the other parts that go to it for about a year now. This is one reason I have not posted much of anything about the adapter, even though I've had it for a year and have used it some. I should have the rest of the parts next week, along with the new Gen 2 adapters. There have been a few very small changes to the MSA adapter which were implemented after feedback from myself and others who already installed the Gen 1 adapters in our Saigas. Nate has been very concerned since the beginning, about making these the best as they can be, and has done everything in his power to make the necessary changes along the way, to produce the best product he could possibly produce. I can't speak for renegadebuck because I don't know all the facts, but I do know from what I've read, that he has also been making improvements along the way, and is trying to also produce a good product for Saiga owners. This write up is not meant to be a MSA vs. renegade buck adapter thread. I am only posting these pics of the adapters currently out there because I happen to have both of them on hand right now (thanks to a fellow member who sent me his to look at and try in my gun). So many people have so many questions, I just thought it might be helpful if they could see pics of both adapters, and be able to ask more specific questions after seeing what both adapters look like...in and out of the Saiga.

 

Also please keep in mind that my Saiga has been converted, and also modified to accept regular AK mags. That means the mag catch on mine has been shortened just enough to lock in an AK mag. That makes it a little bit short to lock renegadebuck's adapter in place firmly, but because of the design difference in the two adapters, the MSA one still locks in firm enough to feed rounds from my AK mags I have used for years with it. They do fit a little more loosely now, but they do work and it's not really that noticeable because they aren't floppy loose, just not tight as a glove like they used to be before I modded my receiver and trunnion for the adapter and AR mags. As a bonus though, the unmodded AK mags that I saved and hadn't modded the feed lips on yet, now fit and work also. They fit better of course than the modded AK mags because the two spots where you have to modify a Bulgy circle 10 mag in order for it to fit in a Saiga, are the tops of the front side edges of the mag bodies, where they seat against the trunnion. Now that my trunnion has been milled down a little to allow the adapter and AR mags to fit, the AK mags no longer need that little bit taken off of them to lock into the gun. A factory new Bulgy circle 10 mag will fit in my gun now with no mods...and feed rounds just as good as my AR mags now do. I will soon be doing some range testing on both mag adapters and both AR and AK mags, and will shoot video as well. I'm waiting on the Gen 2 adapters from MSA to arrive next week hopefully. I'll update this thread with new pics when I get them. Til then, this is all I have to go by. My adapter also doesn't have the right hand release lever installed yet. It is a crossbar that activates the mag release on the left side of the adapter. The fact that the MSA has an ambi release is an advantage I think. I'm righty though so I can't wait to get the rest of my parts to the prototype I was sent last year. Next week yeah!

I'm just gonna post a bunch of pics now showing both adapters at different angles and such. I'll keep the commentary to a minimum. If you have any questions about certain pics just ask them. I will number each pic so you don't have to hit "reply" and repost all the pics in each of my posts. That will no doubt eat up a bunch of bandwidth and I would prefer not to do that. Please if you have a question or comment about a certain photo, just say "about pic number XX...."

 

OK I think I covered everything but I'm tired as hell so who knows.... here goes. Please keep this thread civl. This is meant to be an educational thread. I do not want it to end up in the gutter (fight club).

 

The two plastic adapters (black and white) are the first prototypes Nate sent me for function and fit testing, and to use to modify my gun. The final product actually ended up being slightly smaller, so my adapter, and my mags (AK and AR) may fit just a little more loose than yours will after modding your gun for the adapter. The rengadebuck adapter does require a little less material removed inside the receiver, but the AR mags have to go up the same distance into the gun in order to feed, no matter which one you use....so the trunnion must be milled about the same from what I can tell. Only difference is, the MSA adapter has a support 'box', that fits up inside the receiver and steadies the mag body. The AR mags fit very well in there, yet can drop free, depending on which mags you use, and how much use they get. Another thing about my Gen 1 adapter....Nate said the new ones will have a little more clearance inside I believe, so mags will drop free better, including the P Mags.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Shit I forgot to number the damn pics..... Don't worry, there are a lot more...

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Alright that was 1-12.

 

Here are some more...

 

I'll come back and edit these with captions if they need descriptions.

 

 

Here are pics of the renegadebuck adapter installed in my Saiga with a shortened mag catch (for AK mags). As you can see it fits loosely because of this. I don't know until I test fire it, but it may or may not feed in my gun.

 

1.

 

2.

 

3.

 

4.

 

5.

 

6.

 

7.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok now here are some pics of the MSA adapter installed...

 

As you can see with this one, it still fits pretty tight even though the mag catch has been shortened for AK mags. There is still a small amount of play, but due to the way the rear locking lug is wedge shaped (instead of flat) it lets the mag catch move forward and tighten up like the great Kalashnikov designed all his mags to fit. This allows it to still feed just as good with modded and unmodded AK mags, as well as AR mags using the adapter.

 

Also pictured are some AK mags installed...the black 30 rd is modified...the clear 20 rd has not been modified. I will be test firing with both soon, along with the AR mags I have (about a half dozen types), to see how it feeds.

 

1.

 

2.

 

3.

 

4.

 

5.

 

6.

 

7.

 

8.

 

9.

 

10.

 

Something important I would like to mention...with the MSA adapter it is very easy to release the factory Saiga mag catch, and remove the AR mag with the adapter still attached to it. This makes it very easy to quickly switch from AR to AK mags and keep shooting. The second to last couple of pics are meant to show that.

One thing that in my opinion, is an advantage over the renegadebuck adapter, is the ease of operating the Saiga mag catch with the adapter installed. I am not sure if the new adapters from renegadebuck will be different in this area, making them easier to install and remove, but as it is now, the MSA definitely has an advantage IMO. In fact, I needed to use a tool (screwdriver) to install the renegadebuck adapter, because the mag catch has to be pushed forward far enough to go inside the box where it sits while the adapter is in use. I could not get my finger in there to do this so I had to use a tool. Removal is easier though and can be done with just a finger from below.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Another advantage I want to mention from my observations so far...the aluminum AR mags (GI mags) are the thinnest and the loosest fitting in both adapters. They drop free easily, but in the MSA adapter they don't have any side to side play (wobble...floppyness) like in the renegadebuck adapter. It is important to mention though, that this gun has been fitted to a MSA adapter, so the inside dimensions of the magwell area of the receiver are slightly larger, to account for the mag guides that fit up into the receiver and support the mags fully.

 

Now here are a few more pics....

 

 

Installing the renegadebuck adapter....see what I mean about the mag catch having to go inside the box, and also in front of the adapter's mag catch cross pin.

1.

 

Using screwdriver to push catch forward...while snapping adapter into gun.

2.

 

Installed...

3.

 

 

With Lancer mag installed...

4.

 

With P mag.... (adapter pushed up tight)

5.

 

6.

 

 

Adapter weight comparison....keep in mind my MSA adapter is still missing two very small aluminum parts (negligible weight really). Also keep in mind the rengadebuck adapter is steel, not aluminum.

 

MSA adapter = 52.8 grams

7.

MSA = 1.86 oz

8.

renegadebuck's adapter = 117.5 grams

9.

renegadebuck's = 4.14 oz

10.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok...whew....that's all for now.

 

Questions and comments are welcome and encouraged. Comments and answers from Nathan and renegadebuck are really encouraged and appreciated. No one can tell you about these two ingenious products better than those guys. I'm still learning about both adapters, although I have been involved in the design of Nate's adapter since the beginning. I can't wait to get my hands (and my camera) on the brand new Gen 2 adapters next week.

 

I want to especially thank RTLW for lending me his renegadebuck adapter so I could take these pictures and try it out. I will update this thread once I have had a chance to do that.

 

[theplastik 67]

I don't necessarily agree with the review.

 

Some of the complaints in the Renegade Adapter are kind of negligible since this rifle is, as you said, modified to fit the MSA adapter.

 

Some of the flaws can't be blamed on the product when the rifle is modified to fit another type of magazine and/or AR adapter.

 

The true flaw is not in Renegade Adapter, but rather in the fact that there is no "controlled variable". The controlled variable would be 2 nearly exact rifles and 2 different adapters.

Or even better, 3. (MSA 1.0, MSA 2.0, Renegade)

Also, maybe one - third party modifier/tester/experimenter/reviewer.

 

It seems like this review is a bit biased.

 

But regardless, I have some questions.

Is the MSA Adapter 2.0 the listed $99.99 price on the website, or is that the 1.0?

What is required to modify to fit the MSA 1.0 Adapter? The MSA 2.0? The Renegade Adapter?

 

I'm not in this to stir up anything.

I've been waiting about 6 months since I've had my S223 for an AR adapter to come along.

It was actually my original reason for getting a S223, since I've got quite a few AR magazines around, I could save a bundle by not purchasing any magazines, just one adapter.

 

Regardless of my agreement to disagree, great work and this thread has been very informational.

 

I'm looking forward to the range report.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Damn...the very first post and already this is going totally against what my goal was....

 

plastik this is not meant to be a "review". I thought I tried very hard to make that clear in the beginning. It is virtually impossible for me to be totally unbiased since I am actually working with MSA now. Would people rather I delete this whole thread, and not try to help bring the actual facts out in the open about both adapters? I was not "complaining" about the other adapter, only bringing some things to light which I noticed in my particular situation. Anyone else here on the forum is more than welcome to do their own thread with their own opinions. I made it quite clear that my rifle was modified already to fit the MSA adapter. I do not expect the r-buck adapter to fit mine or even work in it. People kept asking for a comparison between the two, with pics, so I did my best to compare two of them since I had the option to do so. I welcomed Mike or Nate to comment on anything at all regarding the adapters and their use, installation, etc. This was not supposed to be a MSA vs. renegadebuck thread at all. Did you not read that when I said it before? Did you just skip ahead to the pictures and ignore the lengthy first post? Everyone out there is not starting with a brand new rifle, and modifying it to fit one adapter or the other. Quite a lot of people out there have already converted and modded their guns to work with AK mags, like myself. I was trying to bring up a few points based on those pre existing modifications. (like a shortened mag catch, or milled trunnion) Of course I am a little biased toward the MSA adapter, I admitted that upfront too. It should be obvious that if someone was to start with a brand new rifle, and mod it to fit the r-buck adapter only, then it would fit better than it does in mine, and I'm sure would function fine, just like r-buck's adapter did when he brought it here to my house and we tried it in his rifle. I tried to also make that clear in this and another thread.

 

Again.....Please do NOT look at this thread as a "review" type comparison. It is only intended to spur questions and conversation about both adapters...NOT to say one is better than the other. Any comments I made in my thread are strictly MY opinion. YMMV. In a perfect world yes, I would have two (or three) guns, modded for the specific adapters they are installed in. I don't have that option. maybe someone else with two guns to mod will buy both adapters and can then give a perfect "review".

My thread was only posted to actually SHOW what both adapters look like up close, and a few details about how they operate or install in a Saiga rifle. People who read this are supposed to be smart enough to realize that they would each fit better and work better if installed in a specifically modded gun. Some of the things I addressed, such as the way each one interacts with the Saiga mag catch, have nothing to do with how the gun is modified.

 

These are only pictures for people to look at, and think of specific questions for the two guys who make these products. I can help answer a lot of questions but both MFGs are regulars here on this forum and can chime in any time they want, as I also said before. I would appreciate it if nobody else confused what I'm trying to do here with giving a "review". As said before, I don't even have the actual new production adapters yet, so this is only a PREVIEW, not a REVIEW. I will give a real review when I have the brand new product in hand. I hope that it will even work in my gun after I modded it to fit the pre-prototype adapter which was slightly larger in size.

Thanks.

 

As far as range reports, I'll just wait until I get the new adapters to even post any more about that.

 

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I've been drooling over the idea of a 20" .223 saiga for a little bit now...

 

But frankly its not going to happen untill I get a adapter first as availability for the guns seems better than availability for the adapters.

 

Having both of these in your hands do you see any issues in function that could arrive from a end user welding a funnel onto the bottom of either of these adapters?(Nates being aluminum isn't a issue for me, so lets skip that one) Its more of a question on if adding the material might affect function.

 

Within renagadebucks adapter itself is there any play with metal AR mags? I have no intentions on getting the AK style mags and wouldn't think twice about welding a adapter directly to the rifle, that would take care of any play locking up the adapter.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Nailbomb I do not see any reason why adding a funnel to the bottom of either adapter would effect function at all. If anything you would have to be careful how you did it so as not to obstruct the mag catch.

 

In fact, the MSA prototype (the black one in the first pics) actually came with a funneled bottom. I wish this had been kept in the design myself. I think it was left off to cut down on machine time. I'll post some closeup pics of it here.

 

On the renegadebuck adapter I have here, the metal mags do fit a lot more loose in the mag adapter itself. I'm not trying to say anything bad about that adapter. It is what it is. The MSA adapter does in fact have better mag support. They fit in the adapter (out of the gun) much more even and supported. I will take some exact measurements here in a few, and post them up.

 

 

 

 

 

[canoecanoe 63]

Neither adaptor requires a bullet guide, correct?

 

Secondly, i know the logjam of backorders comes first, but does Nate have any idea as to when stock for new orders will be available. I wouldn't want to place an order with potential shipment time totally unkown.

 

I do like that the MSA adaptor is more unobtrusive, but i don't like the fact that more material has to be removed.

Edited July 11, 2010 by canoecanoe

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Mag adapter / mag dimensions:

 

MSA adapter = .930" across the middle on the inside bottom. .891" across middle at top, where it holds the mag snug inside the receiver.

This dimension may have changed slightly on the Gen 2, to make drop free easier with certain mags....Nate can fill in here because I don't have one yet to measure)

On this one that I have, the outer width of the part that goes up inside the receiver (the minimum width you must have for clearance) is 1.20".

 

The renegadebuck adapter = .959" across the middle at bottom....and .974" at the top where the catch holds the AR mag.

 

The vertical measurement, top to bottom of the actual adapters are as follows:

MSA = 1.446 at front, 1.615 at rear

renegadebuck = 1.449" at front, 1.446" at rear

 

Some AR mag widths I have:

 

Metal (aluminum) GI mag = .886" (center at hole for mag catch)

P mag = .886".

Tapco = .859"

Thermold = .887"

Lancer = ..899"

 

Used to have a steel mag around here somewhere but can't find it. Anyone want to measure one?

 

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Neither adaptor requires a bullet guide, correct?

 

Secondly, i know the logjam of backorders comes first, but does Nate have any idea as to when stock for new orders will be available. I wouldn't want to place an order with potential shipment time totally unkown.

 

I do like that the MSA adaptor is more unobtrusive, but i don't like the fact that more material has to be removed.

 

From all I have seen, neither requires a bullet guide....however, if you do put in a bullet guide you can also use AK mags in the gun.

The bullet guide I have in mine is an AK one from K Var and I had to shorten it some so the adapter would go in. It still works great though with my Bulgy AK mags.

 

[avnate 335]

Let me make a quick correction.... We are currently in the 3rd Gen of the Saiga adapter.

 

And to the milling questions.... no matter which adapter you choose you HAVE to mill down (relief) .89-.90" for the AR mag to seat and strip a round. The width of a AR mag can vary from .85" to .90" in width so again you have to open up the trunnion width to .90 to use all mags with the RB adapter. But because my adapter has two extra safety support side walls the width is .96" each wall is .030" in thickness. So for the math people that is a width difference of .060" in milling requirements between the two adapters. No offense to the DIYer but I have seen photos of installations exceeding that .096" tolerance on some RB adapter installs... so I am inclined to call it a moot point. Once again I can not stress enough having either done with a mill to ensure proper tolerance and safety levels. Safety should be the number one concern of any product. Cheers.

[theplastik 67]

Well, I did already admit to agreeing to disagree.

 

I was pretty tired too and I kind of skimmed through the large beginning part.

Its difficult for me to read unless it's laid out the way I write, I don't know why.

Had I read the part that said "This is not a review", I would've realized, it's not a review, it's a biased informational comparison.

So what can I say?

My issue, my mistake.

 

Anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter.

 

I don't have any affiliation with Renegade and I am aware you're affiliated with MSA.

Regardless, I did ask a couple questions that I was hoping I could get an answer to.

 

Is the MSA Adapter 2.0 the listed $99.99 price on the website, or is that the 1.0?

What is required to modify to fit the MSA 1.0 Adapter? The MSA 2.0? The Renegade Adapter?

 

- Actually found the answer to the mods for Renegade's.

 

Also, I wanted some clarity on something.

All magazines will fit loose in the Renegade Adapter?

Edited July 11, 2010 by theplastik

[corbin 621]

Cobra

 

Thanks for the info!

 

For your specific setup (with the shortened latch for AK mags), maybe you could add a little material on the mag catch of the adapter to help it lock up with less play? Seems like that would grant you the best of both worlds. If the RB adapter were yours, I'd think it would just be a matter of bending the latch tab down a little.

 

I kinda wish I hadn't modded all my new Circle 10 mags already, or I might have considered having my Saiga set up the way you have yours. Oh well. We'll see.

 

An observation on the RB adapter.......

 

It would seem to me that having the original mag release somewhat guarded might not be a bad thing, if you're using AR mags. Yeah, it's tougher to install and remove but you won't accidently release it under stress, I would guess. I could be wrong though. Just a thought.

 

I like the idea of an ambidextrous release, though I'd think having the tab you press on the left side be reachable by the left index finger would be better. Not having one in my hands, I'm only speculating, of course.

 

 

Corbin

[Alexc.s. 25]

Just to clarify...

I weighed my MSA adapter. Not sure what generation it is, it's aluminum, has no flared mag well.

It is spot on at 2oz or 57g.

I don't have a RB or I'd weigh that too.

My own opinion is that the MSA looks more professional.

I can't compare the two(other than looks) but I can say that I have never had a jam with the MSA I own.

I also installed mine with a dremel tool, I went very slow testing every cut I made. (took me 6-7 hours)

I got mine right before they got pulled from MAA so sorry I don't know where you might be in line.

From my experience the MSA AR15 magazine adapter is a quality made product, well worth waiting in line for.

[notofnow 5]

Cobra,

 

I definitely appreciate your info and effort.

[admbleg 35]

Great write up.

 

One thing that would be good to do is do an actual range video of the two products:

 

Demonstrating; loading, chambering and firing. (When you have the time)

 

Here are two vids of shooting with the Renegade adapter.

 

Steel targets were at 150yds.

 

 

Second vid with mag change and rapid rate of fire.

 

[fxhart 14]

Anything on the Gen. 2's?

[GregM1 241]

i look at the forum daily, so how have i missed this awesome thread. well done cobra. to much to read at 4am but will read it tomorrow.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Anything on the Gen. 2's?

 

Any day now hopefully....Mine were supposed to be shipped by Friday. I will post new pics just as soon as I get them, followed soon after with a range report and videos.

I was also corrected...it's actually the third Gen that are coming out now.

 

BTW thanks Greg and Gary.

 

[Bayoupiper 738]

Another well done Cobra!

[vintagedude88 16]

I want to say that Renegadebuck's efforts are admirable.

Although it may be rough, he took and idea and his know-how to the best of his abilities and his resources and produced a product to meet the needs of the Saiga .223 community.

 

It is obvious that Nathan's adapter (MSA) is more refined. However its an example of all the efforts, patience, resources and most importantly investment that was put into producing a quality product.

 

Thanks Cobra for putting together this comparo.

[avnate 335]

It is obvious that Nathan's adapter (MSA) is more refined. However its an example of all the efforts, patience, resources and most importantly investment that was put into producing a quality product.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words.

[protected static 19]

Blah blah blah; die, spammer, die. Reported.

[notofnow 5]

Got my MSA Adapter last week, got it put on and tested it. Went to range with 120 rds of different 223s and it worked great with 30 rd pmags but would double feed when you get to the last 2 rounds of a 20 round pmags. WTF i said and so i took both apart to find what the difference was and the 20 rd doesn't have the same follower as the 30 rds. That didn't sit too well because I prefer the 20 rds more than the 30s just because. So i went to the local gun shop and got a Lancer 20 round. With the dummy rounds it wouldn't feed the 2nd to the last round, the lancers do not have anti-tilt either. Again WTF.

 

I bought a 3 pack of the magpul yellow gen 3 anti-tilt followers and dremeled it to fit the 20 rd pmags and now it works like a charm. Attached are pics of the followers before and after the dremel job. In addition the 20 rd pmags with and without the modified followers. Went back to the range with another 120 rds of ammo, three 20 rd pmags with dremeled followers, two 30 rd pmags without modification, one ten round aluminum mag which already had an anti-tilt follower and a surefire mag just to make sure the rifle could still use them. I loaded 3 to 5 rounds in each magazine, lined them up, fired and swapped out the magazines as quickly as i could. I did this 5 different times and not one single failure. I only paused to reload and/or swap out the mags.

 

Ammo used:

 

40 rds of tula 223 fmj

20 rds of brown bear hp

20 rds of brown bear sp

20 rds of silver bear hp

20 rds pmc fmj

 

As for the adapter itself, it's definitely quality made and when on the rifle it doesn't budge at all. It locks in tight and unlocks just like a regular saiga magazine. I was able to use the surefire without any problems. My 10 round aluminum mag drops free but the pmags won't. I had to sand inside the magwell a little because the pmags were tight at first but now it comes out with just a little tug. I think it's because my saiga has dimples which presses the the sides of magwell in a little. I'm good with it for now and maybe i will sand it a little more to drop free later.

 

I don't think an adapter can design away the problem a saiga would have with magazines without anti-tilt followers. I checked my surefires and the follower definitely does not tilt. So for all you folks out there that gets one, make sure you have magazines with anti-tilt. I think now days most do. I was surprised the 20 rd pmags didn't because it seems most manufacturers are putting anti-tilts even in their 20s. Maybe it's because the 20 rd pmags are straight walled and they didn't think it would be needed.

 

I doubt i will ever take that adapter off. It's just too darn convenient and i now have the ultimate goto rifle, an ak that will shoot 223s and take AR mags. It took awhile to get my adapter but it's money that i think is well spent IMHO.

Edited October 15, 2010 by notofnow

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

EXCELLENT write up!