Dudethebagman 222 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 No one asked you, Danny. You're out of your element. You're like a child who walks into the middle of a movie and wants... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 More like a movie that played 14 months ago.... Look at the time stamps. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dudethebagman 222 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 More like a movie that played 14 months ago.... Look at the time stamps. Dan's just messing with me. The intricacies of social decorum have never concerned him much, especially on the internet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J308 1 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Cheese and rice! Every fucking site on the web has a 24hr soap opera in SOME forum apparently. Atleast one tool in every shop I guess...same shit different pile! Newbie here...cool site Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Just don't feed it and they go away. Trying to argue a point is like yelling at a barking dog, it does nothing useful. I figure that most people surfing the net are at home after work.. I also assume that about %5 to %10 are drunk and punchy while posting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J308 1 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I know,dont feed the trolls right!? But hammered and surfin the net,that is new to me... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I am interested in the AK54r. I have two 16' Saiga 308-1 rifles. I know the 7.62x54r and .308 cartridges are very similar. Still, I would love to own a AK54r. I haven't heard much reported about how these modified PSL rifles are holding up. Has any major design/modification flaws been reported? My converted Saiga rifles have proved to be very reliable firearms and if the AK54r has proved to be in the same ballpark I will probably purchase one of these as well....not because it would do anything that the Saiga .308-1 will not do...but because I just want one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 We need AK54r's to keep our Mosin Nagant's company! I like having a semi and a bolt in the same calliber. That way anything the semi won't eat the bolt can chew it up! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J308 1 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Was there not talk about the AK54r and something about the powder burning fast enough or not and early throat erosion with the short barrel? I would assume the same would be for the Saiga 16". Unless the powders are that different. Can anyone shed some light on that...? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeepranch 16 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Was there not talk about the AK54r and something about the powder burning fast enough or not and early throat erosion with the short barrel? I would assume the same would be for the Saiga 16". Unless the powders are that different. Can anyone shed some light on that...? I have not heard about this problem, you have a reference? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't see an erosion problem with a chrome bore. The fireball, however should be EPIC! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't see an erosion problem with a chrome bore. The fireball, however should be EPIC! Like an M38 or M44. You guys find any info on some 54r AK's, be sure to post it up. I want one too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Love my M-38! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atakacorp 147 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I don’t understand how you can compare .308 and 7.62X54R? it should be to 30-06,I guess.I have Saiga 308,PSL and Vepr X54R ,Saiga and Vepr have same thickness of the barrel but Vepr”s receiver is thicker(RPK).You can compare Vepr and PSL, Vepr will be the winner .RPK receiver ,heavy barrel and you can shoot heavy ball if you need to ,the only thing I changed was a trigger, did the same to PSL and SaigaLetter from MOLOT, VP and chef engineer. stating that you can shoot heavy ball 100 yards Vepr ,180gr Russian surplus The guy who is shooting 1.5" MOA with Saiga you are my hero Edited February 16, 2012 by atakacorp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) That is a interesting point atakacorp brought up. Has anyone ever chronied different 308 and 7.62x54r loads out of rifles with similar length barrels? I have heard it argued that the powders used for 308 loadings are optimized for shorter barrels and the 7.62x54r loadings are better suited for longer barrels....hence the huge fireballs when fired out of the M44/M38 barrels due to all the unburnt powder. Of course, I'm talking about commercial factory loads. Not sure if any of this is factual or not. Perhaps I'll grab my Saiga and M38 and chrony them when the weather warms up. I have read where bullet weights greater than 150 grains should not be used much with a PSL but have saw no such warning concerning the Saiga or VEPR. Does the AK54r carry a similar warning? The 308 VEPR I handled was very nice indeed, much prettier and a little heavier than my 16' Saiga 308-1. While I have no doubt the receiver is stronger on the VEPR, I have not heard of one single instance where a Saiga 308-1 receiver has failed in any way. Heck, they even make the Saiga in the 9x53r cartridge where bullets of 250 grains and heavier are reported to be used in Russia. The bolt of the Saiga 308-1 is reported to be stronger than the VEPR's due to the extra locking lug, at least that seems to be the rumor, but I have never heard of any weakness reported with the VEPR's two lug bolt. Perhaps VEPR went with additional receiver thickness to gain extra strength and Saiga went with an additional locking lug to achieve the same result. I was able to buy (2) .308-1 Saiga rifles for approximately the same cost of (1) .308 VEPR but the VEPR I handled was a nicer firearm as far as overall looks. If I was offered either one for free I would definitely take the VEPR. I wish either VEPR or Saiga would import a 7.62x54r version of their rifles into the USA. Or better yet, one chambered in the 9.3x53r cartridge.....wouldn't that be a hog/bear busting sumbitch! Edited February 16, 2012 by t165 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeepranch 16 Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 That is a interesting point atakacorp brought up. Has anyone ever chronied different 308 and 7.62x54r loads out of rifles with similar length barrels? I have heard it argued that the powders used for 308 loadings are optimized for shorter barrels and the 7.62x54r loadings are better suited for longer barrels....hence the huge fireballs when fired out of the M44/M38 barrels due to all the unburnt powder. Of course, I'm talking about commercial factory loads. Not sure if any of this is factual or not. Perhaps I'll grab my Saiga and M38 and chrony them when the weather warms up. I have read where bullet weights greater than 150 grains should not be used much with a PSL but have saw no such warning concerning the Saiga or VEPR. Does the AK54r carry a similar warning? The 308 VEPR I handled was very nice indeed, much prettier and a little heavier than my 16' Saiga 308-1. While I have no doubt the receiver is stronger on the VEPR, I have not heard of one single instance where a Saiga 308-1 receiver has failed in any way. Heck, they even make the Saiga in the 9x53r cartridge where bullets of 250 grains and heavier are reported to be used in Russia. The bolt of the Saiga 308-1 is reported to be stronger than the VEPR's due to the extra locking lug, at least that seems to be the rumor, but I have never heard of any weakness reported with the VEPR's two lug bolt. Perhaps VEPR went with additional receiver thickness to gain extra strength and Saiga went with an additional locking lug to achieve the same result. I was able to buy (2) .308-1 Saiga rifles for approximately the same cost of (1) .308 VEPR but the VEPR I handled was a nicer firearm as far as overall looks. If I was offered either one for free I would definitely take the VEPR. I wish either VEPR or Saiga would import a 7.62x54r version of their rifles into the USA. Or better yet, one chambered in the 9.3x53r cartridge.....wouldn't that be a hog/bear busting sumbitch! The 7.62x54r VEPRs are here, Centerfire and Atlantic have or had them. A 7.62x54r VEPR that used PSL mags would be my vote! according to the maker, the AK54r should only shoot factory ball. Some are putting adjustable gas system on to handle the heavier loads Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atakacorp 147 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 9.3X53 is nice,but IMO 7.62X54R is more than enough for bear, hog,deer, I am hunting with PSL took lots of big game with it.PrviPartizan 150 gr. 16 year old,PSL,430lb hog,90 yards one shot 80 yards one shot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dudethebagman 222 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 The guy who is shooting 1.5" MOA with Saiga you are my hero http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/65305-best-groups-ever/page__fromsearch__1 It's okay if you don't believe me. But I'm not the only one to reload for a saiga and get it to group decently. I've shot plenty of crappy groups, too, but there are a few loads I've found that'll group consistently around 1.5", and the v-max load is usually between 1" and 1.5". I think if you're patient and methodical about your reloading, it's doable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atakacorp 147 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Com,on ,man ,i really mean it, if you are reloading for Saiga, knowing about her chewing brass and all, you are the hero PS I just think it silly trying to get semiautomatic rifle to perform as bolt action rifle ,its ok to have 2-3” groups with Saiga ,if you want 0.5-1” groups get a Tikka . Edited February 16, 2012 by atakacorp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dudethebagman 222 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Com,on ,man ,i really mean it, if you are reloading for Saiga, knowing about her chewing brass and all, you are the hero PS I just think it silly trying to get semiautomatic rifle to perform as bolt action rifle ,its ok to have 2-3” groups with Saiga ,if you want 0.5-1” groups get a Tikka . The brass damage can be mitigated, and most of it is remedied by resizing. But I do admit that having to trim brass isn't any fun, and the semi auto nature of the beast means you end up going through more ammo even if you're trying to be restrained. Considering the price of 308, I can shoot wolf for 40ish cents per shot and get 2-3 moa, or roll my own ammo tuned for my gun for about 60 cents per shot and get 1-2 moa. A bolt gun would be more accurate, but it doesn't have a 25 round magazine and isn't semi-auto. 0.5 moa is neat and useful for hunting, but I don't hunt with my saiga and 1-2 moa is sufficient for what I expect out of the gun. Really it's a toy for me, and it's fun to try to wring accuracy out of the thing and challenge people's assumptions about accuracy. So it comes down to priorities. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atakacorp 147 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Wow ,you guys have 25 round mags now? Outstanding. You should try to hunt with Saiga,fun.I am going hunting with my S12,next week,cannt wait Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks for the heads-up jeepranch. The list price for the 7.62x54r VEPR isn't too shabby. It appears the prices on the VEPR firearms have come down considerably since I last looked. IIRC the price for a AK54r is just about the same and I know first hand how damn nice the VEPR's are. I would much rather spend a few extra $$$ if I have to and go with the VEPR. But I do think I'll wait until they offer a shorter barrel length. 18 would suit me very nicely. I know I'll lose fps but hunting will not be it's primary use. Even though it is an oddball I still think the 9x53r would be neat to own. What state was that bigass hog killed in atakacorp? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atakacorp 147 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 . What state was that bigass hog killed in atakacorp? NorCal and the victory dance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Nice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan6864 11 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Considering the price of 308, I can shoot wolf for 40ish cents per shot and get 2-3 moa, or roll my own ammo tuned for my gun for about 60 cents per shot and get 1-2 moa. A bolt gun would be more accurate, but it doesn't have a 25 round magazine and isn't semi-auto. 0.5 moa is neat and useful for hunting, but I don't hunt with my saiga and 1-2 moa is sufficient for what I expect out of the gun. Really it's a toy for me, and it's fun to try to wring accuracy out of the thing and challenge people's assumptions about accuracy. So it comes down to priorities. Question why is a manually operated bolt more accurate than a semi-auto? I understand that the bolt carrier slamming against the receiver does effect accuracy.But id think that by the time the bolt carrier slammed against the receiver the bullet will have already left the barrel of say a 16"-20". Edited February 19, 2012 by cbr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Considering the price of 308, I can shoot wolf for 40ish cents per shot and get 2-3 moa, or roll my own ammo tuned for my gun for about 60 cents per shot and get 1-2 moa. A bolt gun would be more accurate, but it doesn't have a 25 round magazine and isn't semi-auto. 0.5 moa is neat and useful for hunting, but I don't hunt with my saiga and 1-2 moa is sufficient for what I expect out of the gun. Really it's a toy for me, and it's fun to try to wring accuracy out of the thing and challenge people's assumptions about accuracy. So it comes down to priorities. Question why is a manually operated bolt more accurate than a semi-auto? I understand that the bolt carrier slamming against the receiver does effect accuracy.But id think that by the time the bolt carrier slammed against the receiver the bullet will have already left the barrel of say a 16"-20". Right off the more mass you put in motion by firing the powder charge the more movement of the barrel will result. Everything affects this, weight of the piston and carrier ( why the AR folks are trying very light pistons to replace DI), The relative motion of the heavy bolt will induce a measure of torque. There is also a loss of gas pressure in gas operated semi and auto however slight it does make some difference. You can see some this here. Weapons that use lighter systems like M1/14 also have a bit better accuracy. They do give up some reliability and are more picky about ammo. Remember 4MoA was always the US military standard for MBRs. Of course a boltie suffers from none of this. That is all I know perhaps someone else can shed more light on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan6864 11 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 im talking about a single shot, if you do rapid fire then yes I could see the weight of the bolt carrier hurting accuracy. but on a single shot the bullet leaves the barrel before the bolt carrier slams against the receiver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Well are you saying a boltie is not generally more accurate than a semi or select fire? You can argue till the cows come home but the rifles are designed for different results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ryan6864 11 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 im just asking how as the bullet leaves before the carrier hits the receiver so how much more accurate can a bolt be in a single shot situation? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dudethebagman 222 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 im just asking how as the bullet leaves before the carrier hits the receiver so how much more accurate can a bolt be in a single shot situation? I don't claim to be a physicist or even play one on TV, but I'm guessing at least some of it has to do with chamber dimensions. If you've ever sized machine gun brass, you'd notice that unfired cartridges must fit into those loose machine gun chambers like a hotdog fits down a hallway (machine gun-fired brass is expanded considerably and doesnt want to go into your dies without copious lube and pressure). Most semi-auto's also have embiggened chambers to facilitate reliable feeding and extraction as well. To continue with my innuendo-laden analogy, think of a rifle as a big vibrator. A bolt rifle has less parts and probably vibrates more consistently as one solid unit. Semi-auto's are more like Rube Goldberg designed vibrators with more parts to bang into each other in complex ways and lead to inconsitency from shot to shot. The clean, quick and dirty version: probably because of differences in chamber dimensions and harmonics. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.