AK54r vs Saiga 308

[paprotective 362]

For what is worth (about $0.01) to the many new shooter(s) here:

 

1. If you spend all day shooting groups between 4" and 1.5", you do not have a 1.5 MOA rifle.

 

2. Groups posted without the actual ammo being used, are of little value to anyone.

(stated Tula 150FMJ about 9 biz-illion times)

 

3. Super accurate groups using most military surplus, or worst, Wolf, are highly dubious.

(see TXMarks first range reports) and the 308 at this point FAVORS 150FMJ..)

 

4. No amount of practice in the world will make your rifle more accurate, it may make you more accurate with your rifle.

(thats fine with me)

 

5. A semi-auto rifle that will not maintain the majority of its accuracy, without a long cool down period between shots, is kind of useless, is it not?

 

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

 

 

Also.. Azrial.. I moved this topic to here to untie the congestion as this has gotten off topic in here....

 

http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=58248

 

Hope all is well otherwise.. need any AK help PM me.. especially if your trying to accurize it..

 

 

Albert

Edited September 18, 2010 by YWHIC

[Azrial 1,091]

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

Yeah, this is part of the problem, you do not understand how the MOA of a rifle is determined.

 

Also.. Azrial.. I moved this topic to here to untie the congestion as this has gotten off topic in here....

 

http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=58248

 

Hope all is well otherwise.. need any AK help PM me.. especially if your trying to accurize it.. Albert

 

Thanks Al, but I already know how to stretch the truth, I just don't make a practice of it. The other fellow, "TX-Something" I think, in your new thread comes across as far more believable, as he makes mention of his ammo and bad groups as well.

However, please post all the modifications you did to accurize your rifle. The answer, or lack thereof, would be most illuminating... I have built more AKs from demilled parts sets and rebuilt more Saigas then I will wager you own!

 

What you truely know about the AK, and more exactly rifles and marksmanship in general, is pretty obvious to anyone who reads this thread, except a raw noob.

 

Never the less, have a great day!

Edited September 18, 2010 by Azrial

[paprotective 362]

You talk MOA.. which I don't really care about at all, truth be told..

 

I just want the smallest groups I can get with 4-6 shots (a full 10 rounds like TxMark does would be great). but patience is NOT my friend.

 

I have just 3 Saigas in 3 flavors.. one is straight MBR setup (762X39).. the other is for CHEAP plinking (545x39).. and one is for more DM type work (or working on it) (308) for out to 600 yards hopefully..

 

Can't accurize a 'faulty intrinsic system' (your words).. but I can FIX ME to shoot my best.. (your words also)..

 

As I said so far once... these are more 1.5 MOA (or 1 1/2" - 2" group size) rifles IMHO....

 

Guess we will see what GPD can and his group can do ... (or maybe not do)..

 

 

Al

[RoughRider666 47]

Now that CF has dropped the price of the AK54r, I see these two at a dead heat. There are essentially no price advantages to either, but the only difference I see is the magazine limitation of the AK54r (maybe csspecs can fix this) and the more expensive ammo of the 308. Comments welcome on the pro and cons of either one. thanks

 

It may seem a dead heat in theory, but a little range time might dispel the notion. I suspect the overheating issue with the PSL will also occur in the AK54r. If so, it is a gun you really can't rapid fire without issues. The barrel of the Saiga 308 is much thicker, giving it a greater sustained fire capability. And the larger magazine capacities allow it to perform roles the PSL/AK54r can't do (at least not well). The only advantage of the AK54r is the ammo price savings.

 

I was in love with the PSL until I took one to the range...

 

Then why doesnt Izhmash just get off their ass and build one under the Saiga line with the Correct DRAGUNOV NOT PSL gas system so its done right and just import them here in the states...I'd buy one in a minute if it had the Izhmash name with their quality behind it!

Edited September 18, 2010 by RoughRider666

[jimdigriz 580]

Then why doesnt Izhmash just get off their ass and build one under the Saiga line so its done right and just import them here in the states...I'd buy one in a minute if it had the Izhmash name with their quality behind it!

 

They do make a Saiga in 7.62x54r, but for some unfortunate reason, it is not imported here. I'd buy one in a minute too.

[RoughRider666 47]

Then why doesnt Izhmash just get off their ass and build one under the Saiga line so its done right and just import them here in the states...I'd buy one in a minute if it had the Izhmash name with their quality behind it!

 

They do make a Saiga in 7.62x54r, but for some unfortunate reason, it is not imported here. I'd buy one in a minute too.

 

How long have they made those Jim? What are they called and are they on the Izzy website? Wait, are you talking about the TIGR?

Edited September 18, 2010 by RoughRider666

[mav 459]

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

Yeah, this is part of the problem, you do not understand how the MOA of a rifle is determined.

 

 

 

 

Its really simple math, MOA is Minute Of Angle, from the starting point, the muzzle, the projectile can theoretically travel 360 degrees, or 360 Minutes Of Angle. One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish.

 

How you determine MOA from a rifle is simple as well, if your 100 yard group measures center to center less than 1.047" that is a sub MOA group, if you can repeat the sub MOA groups with regularity, you have a sub MOA rifle.

[GeorgiaPD 408]

GA-PD good luck with your S308 tests! Personally, I can see the S308 as a patrol rifle, or even a rifle for use on a perimeter, but not as a marksman rifle. Your experiences may well vary.

 

 

 

If you spend all day shooting groups between 4" and 1.5", you do not have a 1.5 MOA rifle.

 

 

A semi-auto rifle that will not maintain the majority of its accuracy, without a long cool down period between shots, is kind of useless, is it not?

 

Azrial,

 

I agree with your above statements about the rifle possibly being good on the perimeter or as a patrol rifle. This is exactly why I wanted to do some testing on the platform. We already have our bolt guns for precision shooting and I have yet to find any semi-auto rifle that will stand toe to toe with a bolt for accuracy, round after round. So, we are not looking for replacements in that arena. If we were, we would just use some of the M14's that we have laying around. I am mostly interested in the stringing of the shots when things start to heat up and just how soon and how severe it becomes. It should be interesting and fun for us anyways.

 

Besides, I did not have a Saiga in .308 and this is the perfect excuse

[Azrial 1,091]

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

Yeah, this is part of the problem, you do not understand how the MOA of a rifle is determined.

 

 

Its really simple math, MOA is Minute Of Angle, from the starting point, the muzzle, the projectile can theoretically travel 360 degrees, or 360 Minutes Of Angle. One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish.

So....you think that any rifle that will shoot 1 MOA, will shoot a group whereby no shot falls more then 5.235" from the point of aim at 1000 yards? I mean it is just simple multiplication, right?

 

What about the effect of a low drag coefficient, what about the reduction in the rate of spin increasing bullet yaw? What about...

 

Mav, I am pretty sure that you may be beginning to see my point, in the real world, such a simple mathematical model will never accurately predict real world performance.

[Azrial 1,091]

...Besides, I did not have a Saiga in .308 and this is the perfect excuse

 

No no, I understand, if your wife will buy me a Saiga .308, I will gratefully accept one too! Christmas is coming!

[mav 459]

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

Yeah, this is part of the problem, you do not understand how the MOA of a rifle is determined.

 

 

Its really simple math, MOA is Minute Of Angle, from the starting point, the muzzle, the projectile can theoretically travel 360 degrees, or 360 Minutes Of Angle. One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish.

So....you think that any rifle that will shoot 1 MOA, will shoot a group whereby no shot falls more then 5.235" from the point of aim at 1000 yards? I mean it is just simple multiplication, right?

 

What about the effect of a low drag coefficient, what about the reduction in the rate of spin increasing bullet yaw? What about...

 

Mav, I am pretty sure that you may be beginning to see my point, in the real world, such a simple mathematical model will never accurately predict real world performance.

 

 

 

 

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

[paprotective 362]

So in summary.. I shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.. I'm at 1 1/4MOA.. at 3" group at 200 yards would be about 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 MOA....

 

If I can manage say 5" groups at 300 yards I'd still be at 1 3/4 MOA technically.. If you ask me MOA don't mean crappola.. hitting a 12-15" target repeatedly (on demand) at 500-800 yards and I be tickeled.. with 35 sec - a minute between shots.

 

Of course I'd need a BAG or front bi-pod for that...

 

GeorgiaPD.. you will find heat issues after 5 rounds.. at 30-40 rounds you should end up with groups of about 5-6"... (at least I did).. it didn't seem to affect anything beyond that size after that... (my $0.02).. I had a 8-9" group at 200 yards with the same amount of shots just firing after the X-hair got back on the target..

 

Again.. I just want to see what I can do with my 308 out to 500-600 yards.. even if its a 8-10" 'group' at 600 yards.. I'm still going to be content & happy..

 

At the most till later testing I am limited to 200 yards here.. so the point is to SHRINK my groups.. so when I get to 300-400-500 I can at least go into it that with the knowledge I can get the PAPER...

 

 

Albert

[danielcoins 0]

(5 rounds in under 3" Squared (3 shots under 2 1/2") and then the rest suppose under 6" at 200 yards is horrible... ) which would be 1.5MOA for 3-5 shots and then 3MOA..

Yeah, this is part of the problem, you do not understand how the MOA of a rifle is determined.

 

 

Its really simple math, MOA is Minute Of Angle, from the starting point, the muzzle, the projectile can theoretically travel 360 degrees, or 360 Minutes Of Angle. One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish.

So....you think that any rifle that will shoot 1 MOA, will shoot a group whereby no shot falls more then 5.235" from the point of aim at 1000 yards? I mean it is just simple multiplication, right?

 

What about the effect of a low drag coefficient, what about the reduction in the rate of spin increasing bullet yaw? What about...

 

Mav, I am pretty sure that you may be beginning to see my point, in the real world, such a simple mathematical model will never accurately predict real world performance.

 

 

 

 

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

 

where did the thousand yards come from? Id love to see the person who thinks his rifle will shoot flat 100 or 1760 yards! just wind resistance would see that was not true let alone all the other variables.

[Azrial 1,091]

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

I may have misuderstood what you meant, but not what you said:

....One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish....

You can not easily determine MOA at any range except the one tested, certainly not with the only model parameter being "multiplication."

[Azrial 1,091]

where did the thousand yards come from? Id love to see the person who thinks his rifle will shoot flat 100 or 1760 yards! just wind resistance would see that was not true let alone all the other variables.

Where was the word "flat" used?

 

All rifle rounds start falling to Earth the instant they are fired.

[mav 459]

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

I may have misuderstood what you meant, but not what you said:

....One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish....

You can not easily determine MOA at any range except the one tested, certainly not with the only model parameter being "multiplication."

 

 

Yes you can, a more accurate term might be Minute Of Degree, if you know the range, you can figure out what the size of MOD or MOA is.

[Azrial 1,091]

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

I may have misuderstood what you meant, but not what you said:

....One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish....

You can not easily determine MOA at any range except the one tested, certainly not with the only model parameter being "multiplication."

 

 

Yes you can, a more accurate term might be Minute Of Degree, if you know the range, you can figure out what the size of MOD or MOA is.

No, you can't. Otherwise if a given rifle will shoot a 3" group at 100 yards we would be able to know that it will shoot a 9" group at 300 yards, and this is just not so.

[Deussne 38]

Are you two fuckers by chance siblings, lovers or Married?

 

 

 

 

ROFL:lolol: :lolol:

[mav 459]

I believe you misunderstood me Azrial, I was not stating that if your rifle shoots one MOA at 100 yards, that it will also do it at 1000.

I wasn't trying to make a prediction, I was simply stating that you can find out what MOA is by extrapolating out from 1.047" at 100.

I may have misuderstood what you meant, but not what you said:

....One MOA at 100 yards is 1.047", and from that you can extrapolate it out however far you wish....

You can not easily determine MOA at any range except the one tested, certainly not with the only model parameter being "multiplication."

 

 

Yes you can, a more accurate term might be Minute Of Degree, if you know the range, you can figure out what the size of MOD or MOA is.

No, you can't. Otherwise if a given rifle will shoot a 3" group at 100 yards we would be able to know that it will shoot a 9" group at 300 yards, and this is just not so.

 

 

 

??? Are you even reading what I am typing? I am not talking about any rifle, I am explaining what MOA is, and how to figure it. MOA doesn't change no matter what rifle you are shooting.

[Stansplace 414]

where did the thousand yards come from? Id love to see the person who thinks his rifle will shoot flat 100 or 1760 yards! just wind resistance would see that was not true let alone all the other variables.

Where was the word "flat" used?

 

All rifle rounds start falling to Earth the instant they are fired.

 

 

There is always an arc into the dirt. No such thing as flat, only different arcs of the bullet based on many variables.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Stansplace

[Azrial 1,091]

where did the thousand yards come from? Id love to see the person who thinks his rifle will shoot flat 100 or 1760 yards! just wind resistance would see that was not true let alone all the other variables.

Where was the word "flat" used?

 

All rifle rounds start falling to Earth the instant they are fired.

 

There is always an arc into the dirt. No such thing as flat, only different arcs of the bullet based on many variables.

Absolutely not, there is nothing about a bullet that will provide aerodynamic lift.

 

The arch that you are describing is a function of the sights and the design of the rifle. If you were to fire a bullet out of a dead level test barrel 30 inches above a stretch of perfectly flat earth. It would never rise higher then 30" and would fall constantly until in hits the ground.

 

Force travels in a cone, not an arc.

[Stansplace 414]

where did the thousand yards come from? Id love to see the person who thinks his rifle will shoot flat 100 or 1760 yards! just wind resistance would see that was not true let alone all the other variables.

Where was the word "flat" used?

 

All rifle rounds start falling to Earth the instant they are fired.

 

There is always an arc into the dirt. No such thing as flat, only different arcs of the bullet based on many variables.

Absolutely not, there is nothing about a bullet that will provide aerodynamic lift.

 

The arch that you are describing is a function of the sights and the design of the rifle. If you were to fire a bullet out of a dead level test barrel 30 inches above a stretch of perfectly flat earth. It would never rise higher then 30" and would fall constantly until in hits the ground.

 

Force travels in a cone, not an arc.

 

 

What you are saying seems to be the consensus and makes sense to me as well. The only thing I don't get is if I zero a rifle in at 25 yards and it's zero is the same at 25 and 100 yards, why does it shoot high from 25 to 100? In other words the round hits zero at 25 yards, then hits high beyond 25 until it hits zero again at 100 yards. Can you explain this to me?

 

 

[csspecs 1,987]

Because the irons or scope is above the barrel by an inch or so. When you adjust the scope to point of impact at 25 yards, your actually aiming the rifle up from level. At 100 yards the round has fallen the amount it was aimed up for point of impact at 25 yards.

 

An arc starting below your point of view will always cross level twice. You almost always shoot a rifle pointing up from level, thus it appears the the bullet climbs. In reality its merely falling from its original trajectory.

[Stansplace 414]

Because the irons or scope is above the barrel by an inch or so. When you adjust the scope to point of impact at 25 yards, your actually aiming the rifle up from level. At 100 yards the round has fallen the amount it was aimed up for point of impact at 25 yards.

 

An arc starting below your point of view will always cross level twice. You almost always shoot a rifle pointing up from level, thus it appears the the bullet climbs. In reality its merely falling from its original trajectory.

 

Ahhhh, makes perfect sense to me now, what I am actually doing is compensating for bullet drop at a given range by having the barrel slightly elevated. Hence the arc......

 

I have been around firearms my whole life and am pretty good with them, however I have never really put much thought into this. All I know is tracers appeared to climb to me.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

 

 

[Azrial 1,091]

Because the irons or scope is above the barrel by an inch or so. When you adjust the scope to point of impact at 25 yards, your actually aiming the rifle up from level. At 100 yards the round has fallen the amount it was aimed up for point of impact at 25 yards.

 

An arc starting below your point of view will always cross level twice. You almost always shoot a rifle pointing up from level, thus it appears the the bullet climbs. In reality its merely falling from its original trajectory.

 

Ahhhh, makes perfect sense to me now, what I am actually doing is compensating for bullet drop at a given range by having the barrel slightly elevated. Hence the arc......

 

I have been around firearms my whole life and am pretty good with them, however I have never really put much thought into this. All I know is tracers appeared to climb to me.

 

Thanks for the info.

CCspecs is quite correct.

 

So are you when you say that those tracers that you fired climbed, but they did so only because of the mechanical design of the rifle, not because a fired projectile inherently travels in an arc.

[paprotective 362]

Just finished a range report on the Saiga 308.. pics and 2 videos....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58719

 

Nothing super great, but on avg under 2MOA..

 

Decided to use front BAG only and no rear support/help xcept me.

 

Since its dialed in better I am going for another round in 2 weeks also..

 

 

Al

[hawk78 0]

[jeepranch 16]

CSSPECs any chance of getting a high cap PSL mag?

 

On a different note how does the VEPR 7.62x54r compare to the Saiga or PSL? worth the price? thanks

[csspecs 1,987]

Wow this is an old topic

 

The psl is being looked into.. I'm working on getting a couple sample rifles past she who must be obeyed.

 

The Vepr is going to be rather limited being a single stack, probably 10 rounds tops maybe 15 but it will be very large. I don't think it will be safe to make a PSL mag fit, to much important stuff would have to be cut through.. However it may be possible to make a double stack that fit within the confines of the trunnion, it would still require the rifle to be cut out to take the wider magazine.. So logically it would require a partner capable of doing the modification to the rifle on a larger scale.

 

The vepr does have a nice barrel, very beefy. Everything looks very nice... I did notice that the gas piston is kinda thin, must be something new on the AK design (or possibly just a vepr 54r thing?).

[jeepranch 16]

ok, thanks, didnt realize the Vepr was single stack