AK54r vs Saiga 308

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Ok, I just got the OFFICIAL confirmation from the boss (wifey) that I can add another "Keepsake" to the collection. I told her that it would be for our son

 

But first, I think that a set of guidelines should be agreed upon. Anyone can make three or five cold bore shots and end up with a good group (not an accurate test). So, do you want three or five shot groups for testing purposes. And how about the total length of time for all of the shots to be completed by the shooter. I think that this one is going to be important due to several people bringing up barrel heating issues. The rifle will be shot by all shooters from the prone position, heavy bagged on the front and squeeze bagged on the rear (the same way that we practice for the prone position).

 

I have three different types of ammo to be tested in a variety of bullet weights. They are as follows: Federal 168gr HPBT Match, Radway 147gr surplus and Hornaday 110gr TAP.

 

So, how about each shooter firing five 3 shot groups with a total time limit of 5 minutes. This will bring the barrel heat up to a temperature that could change the point of impact and allow the shooter to get back on the scope. Then allow for a brief cooling period between different ammo types and repeat as needed for all of the shooters. Does this sound like a fair evaluation or do you folks want something different. Let me know so that I can start planning and gathering now.

[mav 459]

Ok, I just got the OFFICIAL confirmation from the boss (wifey) that I can add another "Keepsake" to the collection. I told her that it would be for our son

 

But first, I think that a set of guidelines should be agreed upon. Anyone can make three or five cold bore shots and end up with a good group (not an accurate test). So, do you want three or five shot groups for testing purposes. And how about the total length of time for all of the shots to be completed by the shooter. I think that this one is going to be important due to several people bringing up barrel heating issues. The rifle will be shot by all shooters from the prone position, heavy bagged on the front and squeeze bagged on the rear (the same way that we practice for the prone position).

 

I have three different types of ammo to be tested in a variety of bullet weights. They are as follows: Federal 168gr HPBT Match, Radway 147gr surplus and Hornaday 110gr TAP.

 

So, how about each shooter firing five 3 shot groups with a total time limit of 5 minutes. This will bring the barrel heat up to a temperature that could change the point of impact and allow the shooter to get back on the scope. Then allow for a brief cooling period between different ammo types and repeat as needed for all of the shooters. Does this sound like a fair evaluation or do you folks want something different. Let me know so that I can start planning and gathering now.

 

 

 

Almost, with the possible exception of one statement.

 

 

 

Anyone can make three or five cold bore shots and end up with a good group (not an accurate test).

 

 

 

Cold barrel groups are groups, and the statement made is the S308 is incapable of sub 3moa groups. 1 good cold barrel group doesn't mean anything, repeated good cold barrel groups do. IMHO by definition heating the barrel enough to string is not part of the discussion at hand.

 

That being said, I do not believe stringing will be an issue until at least 10-15 reasonably timed shots (not rapid fire).

 

Perhaps you can perform the test both ways?

Edited September 15, 2010 by mav

[Dudethebagman 222]

Cold barrel groups are groups, and the statement made is the S308 is incapable of sub 3moa groups. 1 good cold barrel group doesn't mean anything, repeated good cold barrel groups do. IMHO by definition heating the barrel enough to string is not part of the discussion at hand.

 

 

I agree (not that anyone was asking my opinion). We're talking about best case scenario - what accuracy the rifle is capable of. I'm sure it'd do worse when hot, during a thunderstorm, plague of locusts, etc.

 

However, I'm also curious to see how much it'd open up after X number of shots.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Arguing with a trained sniper about what good groups are.....mmmkay...

 

Sounds like a good plan to me GeorgiaPD. What length barrel are you talking about getting? I've got both the 21" bbl model, and another I cut back to 16 1/8" and recrowned. Both have extra heavy barrels, much heavier than the other Saiga rifles, so I doubt you will see much over heating and flexing going on...or at least not enough to have to worry about only shooting through a cold bore for good grouping. There has been much discussion in the past about whether the 21" has an accuracy advantage over the 16". People have claimed the longer barrel would actually be less accurate due to more flexing when heated up. I would like to see some solid proof. The barrels on these things are really heavy, some more than others. I've yet to have a chance to put both of mine on the bags, or in a lead sled, side by side for such a comparison. It would be interesting to see some good evidence. I admit I have spent more time building my two custom .308s than I have shooting them, mostly due to the high cost of the ammo for them, compared to my other Saiga rifles, but I am looking forward to some more trigger time with them both. I just finished bore sighting a new scope on one of them (the 21") so maybe I'll have to see what kind of groups it will shoot and post my results as well. Been looking forward to showing my friend Azrial that they can actually shoot good groups. I can tell just by the great accuracy I've already seen with my 16" battle rifle from standing, freehand shooting that once I scope it and put it on a bag it's going to shoot good groups. No offense Azrial but you have been pretty hard on the ol Kalashnikov rifles lately. They may not be Springfields or Remington 700s but they still shoot pretty damn good for AKs. I've had excellent groups with my .223 especially. Can't wait to see how my new 5.45 will do with a scope.

 

 

 

Oh and on the subject of exposing those extra "special" members we have here, who like to post from multiple accounts, I would absolutely LOVE to see that list made public. Makc knows who they are.....

 

 

BTW...welcome to the forum miss lacey.

[chaseface 41]

Arguing with a trained sniper about what good groups are.....mmmkay...

 

Sounds like a good plan to me GeorgiaPD. What length barrel are you talking about getting? I've got both the 21" bbl model, and another I cut back to 16 1/8" and recrowned. Both have extra heavy barrels, much heavier than the other Saiga rifles, so I doubt you will see much over heating and flexing going on...or at least not enough to have to worry about only shooting through a cold bore for good grouping. There has been much discussion in the past about whether the 21" has an accuracy advantage over the 16". People have claimed the longer barrel would actually be less accurate due to more flexing when heated up. I would like to see some solid proof. The barrels on these things are really heavy, some more than others. I've yet to have a chance to put both of mine on the bags, or in a lead sled, side by side for such a comparison. It would be interesting to see some good evidence. I admit I have spent more time building my two custom .308s than I have shooting them, mostly due to the high cost of the ammo for them, compared to my other Saiga rifles, but I am looking forward to some more trigger time with them both. I just finished bore sighting a new scope on one of them (the 21") so maybe I'll have to see what kind of groups it will shoot and post my results as well. Been looking forward to showing my friend Azrial that they can actually shoot good groups. I can tell just by the great accuracy I've already seen with my 16" battle rifle from standing, freehand shooting that once I scope it and put it on a bag it's going to shoot good groups. No offense Azrial but you have been pretty hard on the ol Kalashnikov rifles lately. They may not be Springfields or Remington 700s but they still shoot pretty damn good for AKs. I've had excellent groups with my .223 especially. Can't wait to see how my new 5.45 will do with a scope.

 

 

 

Oh and on the subject of exposing those extra "special" members we have here, who like to post from multiple accounts, I would absolutely LOVE to see that list made public. Makc knows who they are.....

 

Hey Cobra,

 

When you say that both your 308's have extra heavy barrels do you mean that they are aftermarket or that they simply come stock with thicker barrels than other caliber Saiga rifles?

 

Chase

[Azrial 1,091]

Nope, I'm a real person. Long time lurker, first time poster. I just take offense you your claims to know everything and put everyone else down, regardless of your post count. Do you think that makes you king of the internet or something?

 

But hey, maybe you really are putting people down in a righteous attempt to dispel the frequent claims that some people can get their Saiga to do a decent group.

 

I know mine can, and your claims of what a great shot you are and your post count just don't impress me.

I kind of like to get the know people myself, before I rush in and make such rash statements as the one that you made above.

 

Please list all or even a few of the posts where I have told everyone what a "great shot" I am....

 

Thanks!

 

Okay.

 

September 7 in "recrowning the 308"

 

You said: "Let's not talk about my marksmanship, you have no idea what level of shooter I am"

 

Two days later in the same forum, you said: "I have shot more of these rifles then I care to admit and I know what they will do. I also shot NRA High Power for years and was quite competitive doing so."

 

I'm only making judgments based off of what I've read, which are your own words. There's plenty to work with.

 

Exactly, You have no idea what level of marksman I am, no more then I do you. I did shoot High Power for years, I never said one time that I dominated the sport. For that matter, I never said that I did not either, however there are records for that kind of thing.... You have made the statement that you have simply on assumption, no more. I have never said what you claimed. You have not made a case either way.

 

Suffice it to say I am competent with a rifle. If the time comes to prove how so you can find out then. All of my statements have been related to the accuracy potential of a particular make and type of rifle. I have said nothing about the abilities of any shooter here, myself included, and would not unless I have seen them shoot!

 

I have never said it for a reason. This is the Internet and it is full of people that will make all kinds of wild claims and boasts. It would be different if we were to be meeting in a few weeks for a match, a little good natured boasting might be in order. But that is not the case, I have said nothing about myself that there are not those here that know it for the truth full well. Believe what you like.

 

Now I have explained myself to you, a noob here that no one knows and I have been quite polite in doing so. Your own post is not proof what-so-ever of your claim about me to anyone that can read and comprehend basic English.

 

This is the part where a man would make an apology.

[bigsal 757]

Chase - If you've really been reading back over the posts, you'll notice that Azrial has more knowledge than you have ever thought about having. It seems that you don't have anything of value to contribute, so you attempt (very badly I might add) to attack someone who has wisdom that you are simply jealous of. Azrial calls it like it is and does not put up with bullshit from people like you. Honestly, that it not a bad thing. I would certainly prefer to gain knowledge from Azrial, rather than read your little tantrum.

 

 

Tagged for great self-praise!

Edited September 15, 2010 by bigsal

[Azrial 1,091]

Ammo & Lace please explain something to me......

 

You claim that right is right and wrong is wrong.... yet you stand up for Azrials dissrespectful comments and denounce me for my mine?? Only because he has so much knowledge??? There is no class system here. If your going to stand up for someone saying innapropriate things and then denounce me for the same thing than your arguement has no base.

 

Also you keep claiming that you were somehow attacked????? where??? when???? I've read this thread twice trying to figure out where you felt attacked. NOBODY has said even ONE negative thing to or about you. People simply questioned whether or not you were a real person. Thats it!!

 

WTF, you did! Read your own words!

 

OK so check this out...

 

Ammo & Lace joined as a member today at 2:03 PM.... 22 minutes later was responding to my message stating that "Azrial has more knowledge than you have ever thought about having" and "has wisdom that you are simply jealous of"

 

Well Ammo & Lace you must have certainly done a lot of reading in those 22 minutes to claim that he has so much wisdom. Or maybe it could be that you are not who you seem. HHHMMMMMMMMM interesting hahahaha. I have nothing more to say to you troll.

 

Chase

 

Who are you? You have been here for less then 3 months, Do you think that this makes you an old and respected member here? This board has been here for years,. I am a new compaired to some of the real old timers like Cobra, Juggs, BVamp and others! There are some that suspect you of being a shill, but have been giving you the beniift of the doubt. I have met Ammo & Lace along with board members Superhawk138 and Rocinante at a Tea Party and once at a Gun Show. She is a real person!

 

I am not coming down on you but you did attack her and called her a troll!

Or do the ladies like that were you come from?

Edited September 15, 2010 by Azrial

[Azrial 1,091]

Chase - If you've really been reading back over the posts, you'll notice that Azrial has more knowledge than you have ever thought about having. It seems that you don't have anything of value to contribute, so you attempt (very badly I might add) to attack someone who has wisdom that you are simply jealous of. Azrial calls it like it is and does not put up with bullshit from people like you. Honestly, that it not a bad thing. I would certainly prefer to gain knowledge from Azrial, rather than read your little tantrum.

You know hes a Mall Cop right?

 

BigSal, you are a liar and have slandered me. I have never worked at a mall in my life. I find you one of the most repulsive people I have ever met on the Internet. You have no place in this discussion, you have simply dropped by here to TROLL me.

 

I think that it time for you to back off.

[bigsal 757]

 

 

BigSal, you are a liar and have slandered me. I have never worked at a mall in my life. I find you one of the most repulsive people I have ever met on the Internet. You have no place in this discussion, you have simply dropped by here to TROLL me.

 

I think that it time for you to back off.

Come on bro, I kid. Plus didn't you call me "unclean" and unfit to take fellowship with? :lolol: I mean, maybe you should consider which one of us is doing the slander.... just sayin...

Edited September 15, 2010 by bigsal

[Azrial 1,091]

"No Albert, I admit, I can not shoot a "group" anywhere near that size with an AK. I can however shoot a "hole" far smaller than that with my M1A or my Remington PSS."............Azrial.....

 

If you can't shoot a group with an AK that small.. WHY do you bash everyone on here that CAN with a Saiga??

 

It's not that I can't, it's that the rifle can't!

 

I am not commenting on your marksmanship, or anyone here I have not shot with, I am talking about the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle! Do you honestly not know the difference?

 

 

um.. nope I have idea what 'intrinsic accuracy' is and don't care..

 

The point is YOU admitted YOU CAN NOT SHOOT AN AK (or variant in this case) as TIGHT as some of US shooters on here.

 

which means you are being one sided and opinionated... and slamming people here that can...

 

The Intrinsic accuracy is the consistency with which the rifle will shoot to the same point of aim, that is what kind of group the the rifle is capable of maintaining while held securely in a rifle rest and with no action except the pulling of the trigger. Sometimes a mechanical remote release is employed for such tests. This is what people are referring to when they say that one rifle is more accurate then another. It has nothing to do with the marksmanship abilities of any particular shooter.

 

Marksmanship is the ability of a person to use a rifle to best effect. This is what you see when someone is able to use your or a similar rifle to better effect then you.

 

In other words, in a match between any two people, one with a factory Saiga .308 and the other with a factory bolt action Remington PSS in a McMillan Stock. Who do you think has the Mechanical advantage?

 

You have made claims that you have seen the factory Saiga .308 shoot 1.5 MOA or better and can do so with yours regularly. What ammo do you use in this rifle, or does it matter?

You have also made claims that you shoot better then 1.5 MOA with your Saiga 5.45x39. What ammo do you employ for this feat?

 

Your and my problem is that I have said, based on my experience with AK's, that this in not believable!

[Dudethebagman 222]

Nope, I'm a real person. Long time lurker, first time poster. I just take offense you your claims to know everything and put everyone else down, regardless of your post count. Do you think that makes you king of the internet or something?

 

But hey, maybe you really are putting people down in a righteous attempt to dispel the frequent claims that some people can get their Saiga to do a decent group.

 

I know mine can, and your claims of what a great shot you are and your post count just don't impress me.

I kind of like to get the know people myself, before I rush in and make such rash statements as the one that you made above.

 

Please list all or even a few of the posts where I have told everyone what a "great shot" I am....

 

Thanks!

 

Okay.

 

September 7 in "recrowning the 308"

 

You said: "Let's not talk about my marksmanship, you have no idea what level of shooter I am"

 

Two days later in the same forum, you said: "I have shot more of these rifles then I care to admit and I know what they will do. I also shot NRA High Power for years and was quite competitive doing so."

 

I'm only making judgments based off of what I've read, which are your own words. There's plenty to work with.

 

Exactly, You have no idea what level of marksman I am, no more then I do you. I did shoot High Power for years, I never said one time that I dominated the sport. For that matter, I never said that I did not either, however there are records for that kind of thing.... You have made the statement that you have simply on assumption, no more. I have never said what you claimed. You have not made a case either way.

 

Suffice it to say I am competent with a rifle. If the time comes to prove how so you can find out then. All of my statements have been related to the accuracy potential of a particular make and type of rifle. I have said nothing about the abilities of any shooter here, myself included, and would not unless I have seen them shoot!

 

I have never said it for a reason. This is the Internet and it is full of people that will make all kinds of wild claims and boasts. It would be different if we were to be meeting in a few weeks for a match, a little good natured boasting might be in order. But that is not the case, I have said nothing about myself that there are not those here that know it for the truth full well. Believe what you like.

 

Now I have explained myself to you, a noob here that no one knows and I have been quite polite in doing so. Your own post is not proof what-so-ever of your claim about me to anyone that can read and comprehend basic English.

 

This is the part where a man would make an apology.

 

You implied you were a good shot by saying that you "were quite competitive" in highpower. In the last post you said you were "competent with a rifle."

 

I don't need you to prove it to me, that's not the point. The point is that you were saying that I was judging you without basis. That's not the case, I provided examples.

 

Again, you're not the king of the internet, or anything else because you say (or imply) so.

 

Feel free to ignore the logic here again, and proclaim your righteousness.

 

I don't care, I'll just ignore from now on you because it's like trying to talk with a stump (and an arrogant one at that).

[Azrial 1,091]

BigSal, you are a liar and have slandered me. I have never worked at a mall in my life. I find you one of the most repulsive people I have ever met on the Internet. You have no place in this discussion, you have simply dropped by here to TROLL me.

 

I think that it time for you to back off.

Come on bro, I kid. Plus didn't you call me "unclean" and unfit to take fellowship with? :lolol: I mean, maybe you should consider which one of us is doing the slander.... just sayin...

First, I am not your brother.

 

Yes, I did say that., that is my opinion. You are welcome to whatever opinion that you would like to have of me. What you stated was that you knew for a fact that I was a mall security guard. That is not true and apparently you know it, as you have wisely edited your comment.

 

Furthermore you have had no part in this discussion, you simply come by to make an Ad hominem attack on me. Were we in the middle of an impassioned argument, where we were debating facts, that might be very different.

 

This is the very definition of a Troll.

[Azrial 1,091]

You implied you were a good shot by saying that you "were quite competitive" in highpower. In the last post you said you were "competent with a rifle."

 

I don't need you to prove it to me, that's not the point. The point is that you were saying that I was judging you without basis. That's not the case, I provided examples.

 

Again, you're not the king of the internet, or anything else because you say (or imply) so.

 

Feel free to ignore the logic here again, and proclaim your righteousness.

 

I don't care, I'll just ignore from now on you because it's like trying to talk with a stump (and an arrogant one at that).

 

You don't seem to have the English skills necessary to understand the real meaning of words like "competitive" and "competent."

Do not worry about ignoring me, this is the last time I will take you seriously.

 

My opinion is that you have nothing of merit about you and are simply hungry for attention. Now, lets see just how much good you can bring to this board and prove me wrong.

 

 

[mav 459]

Arguing with a trained sniper about what good groups are.....mmmkay...

 

 

 

Arguing, no. Clarifying the argument at hand, not all of which has taken place in this thread, yes.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

Furthermore you have had no part in this discussion, you simply come by to make an Ad hominem attack on me. Were we in the middle of an impassioned argument, where we were debating facts, that might be very different.

 

This is the very definition of a Troll.

 

 

 

Yet another thing we agree on Azrial.

[paprotective 362]

 

So, how about each shooter firing five 3 shot groups with a total time limit of 5 minutes. This will bring the barrel heat up to a temperature that could change the point of impact and allow the shooter to get back on the scope. Then allow for a brief cooling period between different ammo types and repeat as needed for all of the shooters. Does this sound like a fair evaluation or do you folks want something different. Let me know so that I can start planning and gathering now.

 

 

GeorgiaPD that is great.. the other guy on here said sticking to NRA type rules 10 shots/10 minutes was what he was following when he got his tight groups.

 

I know when I was doing well with my 3 shots were tight and 4-5 would open it up.. i didn't wait a full minute between shots. and correct with cold bore going shots 1 may be the 'flyer' and 2-3 would be tight.

 

At 100 yards I got these.. with a FRONT BAG ONLY and 3-9x40 scope (set at 7x) and me holding the rear.

 

 

 

At 200 yards I got this type of group..

 

 

and I did tthe SAME size then next day.. at 200 yards..

 

 

Can everyone do this with the Saiga 308.. of course not.. In about 8 hours total range time over 5 days (non-consecutive) I have shot about 500 round thru MY rifle.. while not alot of ammo per se.. I have always done well and under 2 1/2" x 3" at 200 yards if I do SLOW shooting.. 99% of the shots were with the Tula 150FMJ on sale at AIM..

 

If you get hot you get this at 200 yards..

 

 

 

to the OP.. extremely sorry about getting 'wrapped up' in your post..

 

 

Al

[Ammo & Lace 15]

Oh and on the subject of exposing those extra "special" members we have here, who like to post from multiple accounts, I would absolutely LOVE to see that list made public. Makc knows who they are.....

 

I'd like to see that list, too. As a newbie, it would help me to know who the other true newbies are.

 

BTW...welcome to the forum miss lacey.

 

Thanks for the welcome.

[paprotective 362]

oh and to be really fair/honest.. this is 'really hot' with 40-50 rounds in 18 minutes at 200 yards.. the irony would be everyone at 200 yards would be DOA anyway.. ... you figure an 8" target is HALF the human size..

 

 

and yes I brag at work about taking 'pumpkin' shots at 200 yards..

 

am I great... hell NO.. like AkSarban.. he just rocks it..

Edited September 15, 2010 by YWHIC

[Ammo & Lace 15]

I have met Ammo & Lace along with board members Superhawk138 and Rocinante at a Tea Party and once at a Gun Show. She is a real person!

 

 

Yes, I met y'all at these events. Y'all impressed me as truly patriotic people.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Ammo & Lace

[paprotective 362]

 

Hey Cobra,

 

When you say that both your 308's have extra heavy barrels do you mean that they are aftermarket or that they simply come stock with thicker barrels than other caliber Saiga rifles?

 

Chase

 

Chase factory Saiga 308s come with 2 barrel diamerters one is .671 and one is .634 or .641 (I forget).. Mine is the .671.

 

The only dillema would be if/when you want to add a brake or flashider and threading.. (more in 308 section under threading of Janis post I did which also has the sizes in it)..

 

Both barrels are 'heavier' than the 762x39 and 223/5.45 rifles also.

 

 

Al

[jimdigriz 580]

oh and to be really fair/honest.. this is 'really hot' with 40-50 rounds in 18 minutes at 200 yards.. the irony would be everyone at 200 yards would be DOA anyway.

 

But would you have had the bench rest in battle?

 

;-)

Edited September 15, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Holy crap y'all! I thought I was staying up too late last night. Geez you guys were still bickering the rest of the night.

 

Chase, as YWHIC was saying, some Saiga .308s come with heavier barrels than others, and it can cause a few problems when ordering parts for them. Aside from the issues YWHIC mentioned with FHs and muzzle work, there are other things too, like when I converted my long barreled factory wood stock model, to the 16" battle rifle configuration pictured below, I had to send the special custom made Dinzag Arms lower HG retainer back to Brian for him to redo it for the thicker barrel because of the larger O.D. BTW if anyone is considering doing such a conversion on their .308, which requires cutting and crowning, then rethreading the barrel, as well as boring out the FSB, and even custom welding extra steel inside the sight tower to make room to drill the detent pin channel, then by all means get your parts made by dinzag. He's thee man for this stuff. He custom made the HG retainer, as well as boring the AK-74 24mm brake to safely allow passage of the .30 cal bullet. I crowned and threaded the barrel using tools rented from dinzag, and used a threaded adapter I got from him, to step up to the 24mm brake thread size. You get top notch parts and service from Dinzag Arms, just putting that out there for all the new people who may not be aware of all the work it takes to do a true AK conversion with the .308, as opposed to the smaller caliber Saigas that you can use regular surplus 74 parts on...

 

Ammo and Lace, we have had major issues here in the recent, and distant past, with certain members here using multiple accounts to cause many problems on this site, mostly due to their argumentative nature and childish needs to hear themselves talk (or show off for their friends), as well as their little games they play with others here with smear campaigns against members they don't like. The little "reputation points" system was greatly abused by some of these multi posting members. This is why I would like to see these posers exposed and made examples of. We have enough problems here obviously with those who love to disagree on things. We sure as hell don't need people here who make it worse by posting under multiple accounts. I myself was openly accused of doing this by several members here, as well as logging into my girlfriend's account to do bogus posting and play silly rep points games using her account. I would love nothing mare than to finally be able to prove these immature jerks are nothing but liars and troublemakers....hence my comment above. You will fit in here just fine if you can manage to avoid a few of these members and their silly little games they love to play. They are more concerned with arguing and character assassination, than actually putting any positive or useful firearms info into any discussions here.

 

BigSal...+1 to you for explaining what seems to be the biggest misunderstanding going on here between YWHIC and Azrial.

Azrial has a lot of real world, active duty experience with different military rifles, including the Kalashnikovs, and from what it sounds like, has a dead set opinion that they are not capable of shooting tight groups... period. This has been an ongoing argument between AK and AR (and other rifle) users for as long as I can remember. The AK wasn't built to be the most accurate rifle in the bunch, it was built to be the most reliable. From one of my favorite movie quotes..."Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947, more commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the worlds most popular assault rifle, a weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple nine pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood, it doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It will fire whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy even a child could use it, and they do...."

That said...there are often long fueled arguments that bleed over into the Saiga line of AK variants. Not only their improved higher caliber rifles like the .308 and .30-06, but the Saiga shotguns. Too many people try and compare these new breeds to the well known 7.62 x39 and 5.45 AK-47 and 74. These newer guns are not the same as some of the junk built by so many countries before. I wish people would give them a chance. Azrial has a right to his opinion though, and has openly invited anyone to prove him wrong about these new AKs. So let's see it.

In the not too distant past, I seem to remember these two guys having another ongoing disagreement over things. They once even discussed meeting up in person at a gun show, or was that someone else I'm thinking of? I happen to be good friends with them both, and would love to see them get together and actually do some shooting together. That might put some of this bickering to rest... no?

YWHIC was offended by Azral's claims that he could not really shoot the kind of groups he's claiming to with the Saiga....as well as others who have posted range reports. I must admit Azrial, if I posted actual photos of my targets here on the forum, and told you I shot the tight groups on them from 100 - 200 yds with my Kalashnikovs, and then you boldly came on here and told me that kind of shooting was not really possible with these rifles, I would be pissed as hell at you calling me a liar. Most of the biggest arguments I have been involved in around here were with people who had the nerve to call me a liar, or accuse me of other bullshit I didn't say or do. There's no reason for that kind of shit around here. I hope you guys can work this thing out. I am really looking forward to Georgia PD's team doing some testing with the Saiga. NOBODY should accuse a team of officers who are trained snipers, of giving false or misleading reports. I can't wait to put my own rifles to the true test on my range, and post pics of the results. I do hope nobody accuses me of walking up to the targets and poking holes in them with unfired cartridges or a pencil, or some bullshit. The animosity here on this forum gets way out of hand sometimes, and it only snowballs from there. I've been rude as hell to several deserving members here over time, including Azrial, who I too had an ongoing extremely heated fight going on with. He's a man though, and was able to come to an agreement with me on things, and accept that I'm a man of my word, who has contributed as much as anyone on this entire forum. High post counts don't mean shit. It's WHAT you post about the most... Since then we have been good friends, and even enjoyed talking on the phone with each other several times.

Back to my point though, sorry I got sidetracked by something that needs talking about... BigSal explained what intrinsic accuracy is all about. YWHIC it has nothing to do with practice, or whether or not you are a good marksman. It's all about whether or not the rifle, or in this case, the rifle platform, is even capable of 1.5 MOA groups. I don't see why that has to be such an issue here. Hell I'll solve that mystery myself and post a video of it. I've wanted to do this for awhile anyway just to get my scopes sighted in as good as they possibly can be, by eliminating the possibility of human error. I'm going to build my own rifle vice and make it stable enough so there's no movement possible. I don't have the money to spend on a "lead sled", or similar commercial device. At least then I know if I sight the scope in using that, the rifle will be dead nuts, and all I need to do is my part. I don't claim to be a champion shooter, but I'm definitely not the worst either with a good rifle and good ammo.

 

As far as you new guys coming around here and getting yourselves all offended by different people's tones or comments. I suggest you do a lot more reading around here and a lot less judging people. This is not your grandpa's gun forum. People here tend to get very vocal about things so get used to it. Just be glad you aren't a target for a group of haters who do all they can to bait you into arguments for their own enjoyment, and constantly single you out with snide remarks, or even sig lines with childish attempts to defame you. Yeah...it happens here...believe it.

 

If this post was too long for some to be able to hang with, sorry, I prefer to get all my thoughts down at one time, not hover over the same thread for hours and make little comments...

EVERYONE have a nice day, even those who hate me. You guys are great!

 

 

EDIT > Come to think of it....Azrial, aren't you and YWHIC both sort of local to Georgia PD? Maybe all three of you guys could get together sometime for a shoot. Azrial mentioned a few times about how things would be different if there were different members getting together at a shoot. Some of our forum members have traveled halfway across the US to get together and shoot. Hell I know Tom Cole in Ohio, and Juggernaut and the Mrs. from Michigan, just made a trip all the way down to Louisiana to shoot with Will and friends at Red Jacket. I know all you guys are busy, but hopefully we can get a Saiga shoot together sometime with us east coast guys. I would be happy to host such a get together sometime here if possible. We shoot here a lot.

 

[bigsal 757]

First, I am not your brother, I am an asshole.

 

Yes, I did say that., that is my opinion. You are welcome to whatever opinion that you would like to have of me. What you stated was that you knew for a fact that I was a mall security guard. That is not true and apparently you know it, as you have wisely edited your comment.

 

Furthermore you have had no part in this discussion, you simply come by to make an Ad hominem attack on me. Were we in the middle of an impassioned argument, where we were debating facts, that might be very different.

 

This is the very definition of a Troll.

Oh, I had no idea I needed your permission to post in this thread bro! Thats great info to know....

 

 

Cobra76:> Thanks... I think???

Edited September 16, 2010 by bigsal

[Koliadko 207]

Welcome aboard Ammo and Lace! It's great to have another woman on the forum. I would like to say that I believe most of the guys on here aren't sexist. There may be a few but none has ever acted that way toward me. They are, for the most part, a decent group of guys. There are only two here I really, really don't like and 1 hasn't been around since April and the other reared his ugly little head again in July. He came back flaming and he may have had his nasty little head smacked back down. But it is very helpful on here to have thick skin. There are a lot of very direct people on here.

 

And a big +1 on outing all the multiple screen names on here. I started another account when I was being regularly suspended because of who I am dating but that hasn't happened in a long, long time. I'd gladly erase it if I could as I have no intention of using it. And thanks for the exclusion for Cobra and myself. We are 2 different people as many, many on this forum can attest since we've either met or talked on the phone.

[paprotective 362]

started new thread here.. so this thread can be left alone..

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58248

 

 

Al

[Ammo & Lace 15]

Ammo & Lace please explain something to me......

 

Also you keep claiming that you were somehow attacked????? where??? when???? I've read this thread twice trying to figure out where you felt attacked. NOBODY has said even ONE negative thing to or about you. People simply questioned whether or not you were a real person. Thats it!!

 

WTF, you did! Read your own words!

 

Ammo & Lace . . .

I have nothing more to say to you troll.

 

Chase

 

I am not coming down on you but you did attack her and called her a troll!

 

I also read Chase's words to attack me when he called me a troll.

[Ammo & Lace 15]

Welcome aboard Ammo and Lace! It's great to have another woman on the forum. I would like to say that I believe most of the guys on here aren't sexist. There may be a few but none has ever acted that way toward me. They are, for the most part, a decent group of guys. There are only two here I really, really don't like and 1 hasn't been around since April and the other reared his ugly little head again in July. He came back flaming and he may have had his nasty little head smacked back down. But it is very helpful on here to have thick skin. There are a lot of very direct people on here.

 

 

Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate the comments.

[topgun2000 0]

Any tips on who to find those Saiga .308s with heavier barrels?

 

Holy crap y'all! I thought I was staying up too late last night. Geez you guys were still bickering the rest of the night.

 

Chase, as YWHIC was saying, some Saiga .308s come with heavier barrels than others, and it can cause a few problems when ordering parts for them. Aside from the issues YWHIC mentioned with FHs and muzzle work, there are other things too, like when I converted my long barreled factory wood stock model, to the 16" battle rifle configuration pictured below, I had to send the special custom made Dinzag Arms lower HG retainer back to Brian for him to redo it for the thicker barrel because of the larger O.D. BTW if anyone is considering doing such a conversion on their .308, which requires cutting and crowning, then rethreading the barrel, as well as boring out the FSB, and even custom welding extra steel inside the sight tower to make room to drill the detent pin channel, then by all means get your parts made by dinzag. He's thee man for this stuff. He custom made the HG retainer, as well as boring the AK-74 24mm brake to safely allow passage of the .30 cal bullet. I crowned and threaded the barrel using tools rented from dinzag, and used a threaded adapter I got from him, to step up to the 24mm brake thread size. You get top notch parts and service from Dinzag Arms, just putting that out there for all the new people who may not be aware of all the work it takes to do a true AK conversion with the .308, as opposed to the smaller caliber Saigas that you can use regular surplus 74 parts on...

 

Ammo and Lace, we have had major issues here in the recent, and distant past, with certain members here using multiple accounts to cause many problems on this site, mostly due to their argumentative nature and childish needs to hear themselves talk (or show off for their friends), as well as their little games they play with others here with smear campaigns against members they don't like. The little "reputation points" system was greatly abused by some of these multi posting members. This is why I would like to see these posers exposed and made examples of. We have enough problems here obviously with those who love to disagree on things. We sure as hell don't need people here who make it worse by posting under multiple accounts. I myself was openly accused of doing this by several members here, as well as logging into my girlfriend's account to do bogus posting and play silly rep points games using her account. I would love nothing mare than to finally be able to prove these immature jerks are nothing but liars and troublemakers....hence my comment above. You will fit in here just fine if you can manage to avoid a few of these members and their silly little games they love to play. They are more concerned with arguing and character assassination, than actually putting any positive or useful firearms info into any discussions here.

 

BigSal...+1 to you for explaining what seems to be the biggest misunderstanding going on here between YWHIC and Azrial.

Azrial has a lot of real world, active duty experience with different military rifles, including the Kalashnikovs, and from what it sounds like, has a dead set opinion that they are not capable of shooting tight groups... period. This has been an ongoing argument between AK and AR (and other rifle) users for as long as I can remember. The AK wasn't built to be the most accurate rifle in the bunch, it was built to be the most reliable. From one of my favorite movie quotes..."Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947, more commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the worlds most popular assault rifle, a weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple nine pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood, it doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It will fire whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy even a child could use it, and they do...."

That said...there are often long fueled arguments that bleed over into the Saiga line of AK variants. Not only their improved higher caliber rifles like the .308 and .30-06, but the Saiga shotguns. Too many people try and compare these new breeds to the well known 7.62 x39 and 5.45 AK-47 and 74. These newer guns are not the same as some of the junk built by so many countries before. I wish people would give them a chance. Azrial has a right to his opinion though, and has openly invited anyone to prove him wrong about these new AKs. So let's see it.

In the not too distant past, I seem to remember these two guys having another ongoing disagreement over things. They once even discussed meeting up in person at a gun show, or was that someone else I'm thinking of? I happen to be good friends with them both, and would love to see them get together and actually do some shooting together. That might put some of this bickering to rest... no?

YWHIC was offended by Azral's claims that he could not really shoot the kind of groups he's claiming to with the Saiga....as well as others who have posted range reports. I must admit Azrial, if I posted actual photos of my targets here on the forum, and told you I shot the tight groups on them from 100 - 200 yds with my Kalashnikovs, and then you boldly came on here and told me that kind of shooting was not really possible with these rifles, I would be pissed as hell at you calling me a liar. Most of the biggest arguments I have been involved in around here were with people who had the nerve to call me a liar, or accuse me of other bullshit I didn't say or do. There's no reason for that kind of shit around here. I hope you guys can work this thing out. I am really looking forward to Georgia PD's team doing some testing with the Saiga. NOBODY should accuse a team of officers who are trained snipers, of giving false or misleading reports. I can't wait to put my own rifles to the true test on my range, and post pics of the results. I do hope nobody accuses me of walking up to the targets and poking holes in them with unfired cartridges or a pencil, or some bullshit. The animosity here on this forum gets way out of hand sometimes, and it only snowballs from there. I've been rude as hell to several deserving members here over time, including Azrial, who I too had an ongoing extremely heated fight going on with. He's a man though, and was able to come to an agreement with me on things, and accept that I'm a man of my word, who has contributed as much as anyone on this entire forum. High post counts don't mean shit. It's WHAT you post about the most... Since then we have been good friends, and even enjoyed talking on the phone with each other several times.

Back to my point though, sorry I got sidetracked by something that needs talking about... BigSal explained what intrinsic accuracy is all about. YWHIC it has nothing to do with practice, or whether or not you are a good marksman. It's all about whether or not the rifle, or in this case, the rifle platform, is even capable of 1.5 MOA groups. I don't see why that has to be such an issue here. Hell I'll solve that mystery myself and post a video of it. I've wanted to do this for awhile anyway just to get my scopes sighted in as good as they possibly can be, by eliminating the possibility of human error. I'm going to build my own rifle vice and make it stable enough so there's no movement possible. I don't have the money to spend on a "lead sled", or similar commercial device. At least then I know if I sight the scope in using that, the rifle will be dead nuts, and all I need to do is my part. I don't claim to be a champion shooter, but I'm definitely not the worst either with a good rifle and good ammo.

 

As far as you new guys coming around here and getting yourselves all offended by different people's tones or comments. I suggest you do a lot more reading around here and a lot less judging people. This is not your grandpa's gun forum. People here tend to get very vocal about things so get used to it. Just be glad you aren't a target for a group of haters who do all they can to bait you into arguments for their own enjoyment, and constantly single you out with snide remarks, or even sig lines with childish attempts to defame you. Yeah...it happens here...believe it.

 

If this post was too long for some to be able to hang with, sorry, I prefer to get all my thoughts down at one time, not hover over the same thread for hours and make little comments...

EVERYONE have a nice day, even those who hate me. You guys are great!

 

 

EDIT > Come to think of it....Azrial, aren't you and YWHIC both sort of local to Georgia PD? Maybe all three of you guys could get together sometime for a shoot. Azrial mentioned a few times about how things would be different if there were different members getting together at a shoot. Some of our forum members have traveled halfway across the US to get together and shoot. Hell I know Tom Cole in Ohio, and Juggernaut and the Mrs. from Michigan, just made a trip all the way down to Louisiana to shoot with Will and friends at Red Jacket. I know all you guys are busy, but hopefully we can get a Saiga shoot together sometime with us east coast guys. I would be happy to host such a get together sometime here if possible. We shoot here a lot.

Edited September 17, 2010 by TopGun2000

[Azrial 1,091]

Yes, I met y'all at these events. Y'all impressed me as truly patriotic people.

Well it is good to see you here and posting. I am sorry for the less then cordial welcome, but please be assured that the majority of people on this site are better bred.

 

I have been tied up with a case the last few days. I am looking forward to doing a little smithing on one of my AKs this morning.

 

Please let me know if I may be of assistance to you!

[Azrial 1,091]

GA-PD good luck with your S308 tests! Personally, I can see the S308 as a patrol rifle, or even a rifle for use on a perimeter, but not as a marksman rifle. Your experiences may well vary.

 

For what is worth to the many new shooter here:

 

1. If you spend all day shooting groups between 4" and 1.5", you do not have a 1.5 MOA rifle.

 

2. Groups posted without the actual ammo being used, are of little value to anyone.

 

3. Super accurate groups using most military surplus, or worst, Wolf, are highly dubious.

 

4. No amount of practice in the world will make your rifle more accurate, it may make you more accurate with your rifle.

 

5. A semi-auto rifle that will not maintain the majority of its accuracy, without a long cool down period between shots, is kind of useless, is it not?