Wolf 60 gr FMJ better wounder than 7N6?

[jimdigriz 580]

I've been a big proponent of 7N6 for both training and defense purposes, but I'm always willing to consider new arguments for other defensive loads. There was a fellow (now deceased) at theakforum.net who had done lots of ballistic testing and came to the conclusion that the Wolf 60 gr FMJ was a better wounder than the 7N6. (The key post is stickied, and can be found here). He claimed that the results of his tests were very consistent and reproducible. He also relied on results from other testers, including brassfetcher.com.

 

Basically, he noticed that the Wolf 60 grain FMJ and some other commercial FMJ had (relative to the 7N6) a longer sideways "dwell" time before flipping back over, resulting in a more impressive wound channel. Brassfetcher seems to bear this out, with 8 1/2 inches of sideways penetration for the Wolf FMJ before flipping over, as compared to just over 6 1/2 for the 7N6. (The 7N6 did begin to tumble more quickly however). The maximum cavity for the Wolf exceeded 6 inches! Brassfetcher does not record the maximum cavity for the 7N6, but from the measuring tape included in the picture, it appears to be about 4 inches. (This may not be accurate though; it's difficult to estimate, given the perspective involved).

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/60%20grain%20FMJ.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/545x39mmBulgarian53grFMJ.html

 

As a side note, the Wolf HP was fairly unimpressive, traveling about 8 1/2 inches before beginning to create serious disruption.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/545mmWolfHP.html

 

Any thoughts?

Edited July 27, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[L5K 162]

I don't know that I'd switch to Wolf over 7N6. Sure it may have the potential to create greater wounds, but the 7N6 rounds work just fine and the price point cannot be beat. I'm cheap.

[jimdigriz 580]

I don't know that I'd switch to Wolf over 7N6. Sure it may have the potential to create greater wounds, but the 7N6 rounds work just fine and the price point cannot be beat. I'm cheap.

 

Well, it's not very expensive to load a magazine or two with Wolf, should one become convinced that it is a superior load.

[Krom 36]

I'm pretty interested in this, I read the thread at akforum and couldn't really make sense of it. I looking to find a non-corrosive alternative for a SHTF bugout bag (maybe the hornady, but I'd prefer something cheaper).

 

Does anybody have info on silver bear ballistic wise?

 

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm pretty interested in this, I read the thread at akforum and couldn't really make sense of it.

 

FreeRangeYoda (R.I.P.) was not exactly a linear thinker. I had to read the thread about 3 or 4 times to understand it. It also helped to read his posts in other 5.45 ammunition threads, and to review a number of times the info at brassfetcher.

 

Speaking of brassfetcher, he records the max cavity for the Wolf, but not for the 7N6. I asked him about it in email, and this was his response:

 

"I can only go by the scale on the photographs, since the test was done before we started to record using the current format. I would say the cracks in the gelatin do not exceed 4" at any one location. Unfortunately I can't say with any greater certainty based on the data that has been gathered on this cartridge to date."

 

>6" vs. 4", and for 2 more inches in length....wow.

 

On the other hand, the tendency of the 7N6 to yaw sooner might be better when shooting at very thin opponents. Might be good to alternate both in a magazine.

 

Jim

Edited July 28, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Paulry 50]

I'm still working on a good test to compare these rounds. Just got through a national sales meeting and have had NO time to shoot. Just a busy time of the year right now. I'm leaning to go with the gelatin as well as it will not leave a big mess.

 

One thing to look at on the test links from JD, if you read into it and compare it to the posted .223 you'll notice the 16.5" AK74 has nearly equal velocity as the 14"-16" AR in 5.56x45! Yep this is what I suspected!

 

I am NOT impressed by the Wolf HP testing I've done. I feel at this point (and need to verify) the Wolf or 7N6 are both fine. Look at the velocity of the Wolf 60 grain FMJ in the test, not bad for a little, easy to shoot cartridge.

 

By the way, my DPH clip on compensator that has had hundreds of corrosive rounds though it and only sprayed with dish soapy water and WD-40, then left out in the garage, has NO sign of rust!! Remember this compensator was a In the white (no finish) test piece that was pulled from the market due to it breaking and flying off the barrel. (More about this later).

 

Yep, the Wolf or Silver Bear are just fine by me for non-corrosive ammo.

 

[jimdigriz 580]

I'm still working on a good test to compare these rounds. Just got through a national sales meeting and have had NO time to shoot. Just a busy time of the year right now. I'm leaning to go with the gelatin as well as it will not leave a big mess.

I'd definitely like to see more ballistic gellatin tests. Brassfetcher's tests are intriguing, but hardly dispositive. They need to be repeated multiple times to give us greater surety. They also lack (in the case of the 5.45) uniformity of reporting.

 

>6" vs. 4", and for 2 more inches in length....wow.

The more I think about it, the less significant the length of the cavity where the bullet traveled sideways is, since it immediately turned back over on its side. But the increase (>%50, apparently) in the size of the temporary cavity with the Wolf is very impressive.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[mgconnor13 206]

For SHTF you could always run a mix in your mag. just a thought

[TX-Zen 287]

[jimdigriz 580]

It's hard to make out what the Wolf is actually saying, but it looks to me like it yawed at 5 inches and caused a larger maximum cavity.

He says it flipped after 4 inches. So it yawed 1.5 inches later than the 7N6.

 

Dunno but I'd take the bullet that starts yawing first...humans aren't a minimum of 6 inches thickness, 2.5 inches sounds like it will be more effective over a wider range of hit conditions.

Basically, Wolf appears to be better for direct hits, 7N6 for peripheral hits. 7N6 would also be better against very thin bad guys.

 

If 5.45 is your SHTF rifle I don't see any reason not to use 7N6...soldiers depend on it for their lives everyday, not sure why it wouldn't be suitable for defending you and yours.

Is 7N6 still in use by foreign militaries? I thought the reason we were getting it was that it was not. Anyhow, I'm sure it's plenty suitable for defense purposes. It's what my magazines are loaded with. That doesn't mean there's no possibility of improvement. And, the fact that it is corrosive is (when it comes to after-action issues) somewhat troublesome. For instance, your weapon sitting in the police lock-up for weeks after defending yourself with 7N6...

[veprk 12]

Nope, the 5.45 has been completely discontinued. No current military carries it,no modifications what so ever,7n6 is the end. they never designed a better round of 5.45 in 1986. No subsonic rounds or ap rounds or tracers. Thats just weird military stuff

Edited July 30, 2010 by veprk

[Paulry 50]

What?

 

Russian Army continues to use the 5.45x39 today.

 

The ammo we have is from excess stocks of Afghan war surplus (bet they made millions of rounds). After 30 years most armies will either shoot it up or well at surplus. One of the main reason's this was not totally shot up is they changed to a different bullet design and no longer use this one. It's a lot like if the US had a million rounds sitting around from the Vietnam war and no longer use it due to the change of the bullet weight and design.

 

We are lucky to have this and be glad we have a super high quality source!

[jimdigriz 580]

Edit: nevermind.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Krom 36]

I think for general home defense I'm gonna grab some hornady when it becomes available (good point about your rifle rusting up after the police have it in a defensive shooting). And I think for homestead SHTF 7n6 is fine since being able to clean corrosive ammo is not a problem. But want a good non corrosive bug-out ammo, I could use corrosive but I would need to carry more cleaning supplies, and since space and weight is very limited I want non-corrosive ammo.

[jimdigriz 580]

I think for general home defense I'm gonna grab some hornady when it becomes available

 

You may want to be cautious about that. From what I've read (on Hornady's web site), it has insufficient penetration depth.

[veprk 12]

Man, I was im bad mood last night and being a smartass.

 

Nato is a reason why the 5.45 has been dropped by some,the polish for example. And the simple fact there are millions of 47's around is another reason, just not cost effective to tool up to build new rifle and a new caliber.

 

5.45 is the main caliber for the russians, and since it is we dont get the most current or upgraded 5.45. they dont sale there good stuff untill something better replaces it.

 

The original 5.45 round didnt last very long due to lack of penetration. Thats were the 7n6 came into play and is also what being imported.In 86 a better 5.45 was produced and replaced the 7n6. We havent seen any of that in the US.

[archivist dick 0]

Interesting conversation, thanks comrades.

 

To advance it all I've got is an anecdote. And this is that a pal and I managed to chop down an eight-inch thick pine - accidently, of course - using thirty Barnaul 60-grainer FMJ. You see, we tacked up a simple target on the trunk, walked back one hundred paces and let loose.

 

The Barnaul-brand bullets all exited out the back after slicing thru the wood sideways.

 

Apropos of the brasscatcher experiments, it would seem logical the Wolf-brand FMJs are longer than standard 7N6 ball, and this could easily account for the wider "wound" track thru the gel. Don't really know what was going on with the Wolf HP tho we all can see it was the slowest of the three sample projectiles.

 

As a practical matter, any home defense app might best use Wolf or Barnaul or some other commercial stuff. For outside work the 7N6 should be fine.

 

To brag, five weeks ago I was holing a human silhouette cardboard figure set out at 589-yards using a CFS-special mutt gun over iron sights. Yup, 7N6 does carry on out pretty far when given half a chance. Great fun.