Hypothetical CCW situation

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Regarding being a sheep...

 

If the guy is holding up 7-11 with an airsoft and caught, 7-11 doesn't keep more than $60 in the register. No felonies committed even if he is successful and then caught after the fact. He will likely be released within a few months and maybe serve some community service.

 

If I shoot him, I can pretty much kiss at least 2 years of my life away and $100,000 in lawyer fees to prove myself as "justified" in shooting him over $60 (this would include civil suits which can come after the criminal trial has been dismissed).

 

I think 7-11 can sell another 120 Taquitos and I will keep the $100,000.

 

 

If people are being beat to the ground and shot at, I have no problem defending myself and others and dealing with the repercussions of exercising my rights until then, the tipping point hasn't happened.

 

BAAAAAAAAAA!!!

[Paulyski 2,227]

The trouble with threads like this one is that IF this situation should occur, and one of our fellow forumites is the CCW and does take action, this thread would be brought up in court.

 

This is a good point. I think the mods should offer to delete the posts of any CCW holders who jumped in without thinking. You never know what the future might bring. How bout it Juggs?

 

LOL you guys just have no clue as to the difficulty of them even knowing that Joe Schmo wrote this, or who you are. All they can see are words posted on the net. Let's say that they could, so what, it is called the 1st amendment right - freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, and the right to protect ones self from it's enemies foreign or domestic!!!

 

Can they find out who you are? Sure they can as long as a judge signs a subpoena for the IP address of the poster from the owner of this board, then he would have to submit another subpoena to the IPS that holds that address just to find out who you are....

 

They will have to produce the evidence to the judge and all the title says is "Hypothetical" and everyone answered under the hypothetical scenario thread... A judge would look at them and tell them to get out.....

I would trust what Dancing Bear said... I think he knows procedure on this one.

 

Don't you ever notice that every time a guy is arrested or being investigated for a serious crime, they take his computer to search it?

 

"Hey Judge... I think this guy's some kinda vigilante... He's likely posted stuff... Can I have a warrant, to complete my investigation?"

[454496 71]

What if you are carrying and the robber shoots and kills the clerk because you did not shoot him first?

[MT Predator 2,294]

They are perishable skills..... If ya don't use it, ya lose it!...

It's don't take much to stay up on it....

+1000000000000000 brother!

[MT Predator 2,294]

Regarding being a sheep...

 

If the guy is holding up 7-11 with an airsoft and caught, 7-11 doesn't keep more than $60 in the register. No felonies committed even if he is successful and then caught after the fact. He will likely be released within a few months and maybe serve some community service.

 

If I shoot him, I can pretty much kiss at least 2 years of my life away and $100,000 in lawyer fees to prove myself as "justified" in shooting him over $60 (this would include civil suits which can come after the criminal trial has been dismissed).

 

I think 7-11 can sell another 120 Taquitos and I will keep the $100,000.

 

 

If people are being beat to the ground and shot at, I have no problem defending myself and others and dealing with the repercussions of exercising my rights until then, the tipping point hasn't happened.

 

BAAAAAAAAAA!!!

I guess it boils down to the CCW knowing their state's laws regarding use of force. In my state, the airsofter robbing the 7-11 is a justified shoot unless the orange tip is visible denoting a toy which will get you hauled in. I think more states like FL need liberal laws in regards to CCW to send a message out to the criminals that more people are armed and have the legal right to jack their day up if they fuck up and give the CCW a cause to pull the trigger. We have lots of armed home invasions around here as well, kick in the door, hold people at gunpoint, ransack the house, rape the wife/daughter. Good enough cause to leave a fucking gutpile in my house if they try it! Let a judge use this post as evidence against me.

Edited to add...My state's Castle Doctrine and No Retreat Law have my back on this BTW as long as I "feel threatened for my life or that of others".

Edited July 31, 2010 by MT Predator

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Perhaps possessing a CCW is pre meditation...... or even owning a firearm... or being in a criminals way at the wrong place and time....

 

I got nothing but love and respect for Dancing bear.. we go back quite a ways.... AND he is probably correct....

 

As a Christian, I have already chosen the path of a martyr..

I can only hope if I am faced with the horror of being in a life and death situation, that the TRUTH of the matter would be heard over a political one...

If I was ever guilty of wrongdoing... I SHOULD face justice....

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Sometimes, just being a really good witness is the best option. If someone is actually having harm inflicted against them, then by all means take action. But if all the offender wants is money and there is no violence being inflicted at the time, then let them have the money, etc. and go one their way. Be a good witness and provide any available information that you can to the responding authorities. I would much rather take a report and be able to add details as opposed to making a death notification to the family of a good samaritan if something goes terribly wrong.

 

I'm all for blasting them, but one thing has not been brought up that I noticed. Several have stated that they would shoot based on the fear of another receiving great bodily harm or death. But what happens if you hammer the offender and the clerk tells the police that they were not in fear, but just handed over the money due to store policy. This type of thing happens all of the time. That scenario completely changes the District Attorney's view on things. Some of the clerks at the local "Stop and Rob's" have been held up so many times that they are more annoyed about it than they are scared.

 

I'm not telling anyone that they are right or wrong for their views, as we are all adults here and free to make our own decisions. Just offering up some real instances from previous experiences. But, I truly hope that nobody is EVER forced into this type of incident.

Edited July 31, 2010 by GeorgiaPD

[David Mark 2,452]

Sometimes, just being a really good witness is the best option. If someone is actually having harm inflicted against them, then by all means take action. But if all the offender wants is money and there is no violence being inflicted at the time, then let them have the money, etc. and go one their way. Be a good witness and provide any available information that you can to the responding authorities. I would much rather take a report and be able to add details as opposed to making a death notification to the family of a good samaritan if something goes terribly wrong.

 

I'm all for blasting them, but one thing has not been brought up that I noticed. Several have stated that they would shoot based on the fear of another receiving great bodily harm or death. But what happens if you hammer the offender and the clerk tells the police that they were not in fear, but just handed over the money due to store policy. This type of thing happens all of the time. That scenario completely changes the District Attorney's view on things. Some of the clerks at the local "Stop and Rob's" have been held up so many times that they are more annoyed about it than they are scared.

 

I'm not telling anyone that they are right or wrong for their views, as we are all adults here and free to make our own decisions. Just offering up some real instances from previous experiences. But, I truly hope that nobody is EVER forced into this type of incident.

 

I was hoping to hear from you on the one. Thanks for the thoughtful response from a professional on the front lines.

[308SAIGA 55]

 

I would trust what Dancing Bear said... I think he knows procedure on this one.

 

Don't you ever notice that every time a guy is arrested or being investigated for a serious crime, they take his computer to search it?

 

"Hey Judge... I think YOU CAN NOT THINK YOU HAVE TO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE (thinking results in law suites) IT IS CALLED FACT this guy's some kinda vigilante... He's likely posted stuff... Can I have a warrant, to complete my investigation?"

 

You ever notice that these people that get their computers taken are usually stupid people! They can take my computer all they want they will not find anything, I clean all of my tracks everyday, no I do not just empty my cookies I make sure they are gone... Ever hear of CCLEANER? in the options section there is an option for you to delete using DOD 5220 wipe (3 passes) or the NSA wipe (7 passes) and if you are real paranoid the Gutmann (35 passes), in other words when you set one of these settings and you tell the program to run it runs the delete 3/7/ or 35 times and you can not recover the info from the PC...

 

On another note it will not hold up in court because (repeat) It is called "freedom of speech" no one here stated that they are going to stake out a bank to see it someone is going to rob it, the hypothetical question is "IF", the crime is already being committed and you have the right to defend yourself.....

Edited July 31, 2010 by Gunlover_2008

[308SAIGA 55]

This happened down the street from my house, I frequent this establishment regularly, this day I did not go and was at the same time it occurred... I got a call from my mother frantic to know where I was, she knows I carry..... Had I been their that day and saw a gun I would have taken him out and would have been totally justified in doing so, I am so broken heart-ed for the little boy that will never see his father again.....

 

http://www.wpbf.com/news/15474521/detail.html

[Bayoupiper 738]

I am speaking from experience.

 

 

 

I have a friend who is going through this right now.

 

Fortunately for him, it was a physical fight and not a gunfight.

 

But it was with a certain ethnicity different from his.

 

And because of what he had posted on his Facebook page, his computer was searched and some stuff he had posted on internet forums was drug up.

 

Now they are trying to make it out to be a hate crime.

 

 

How many of you have your gun information on your Facebook pages?

 

 

 

Hell, it is common procedure now when investigating a suspect to check social networking sites, photo sites like Photobucket, and special interest i-net forums.

[308SAIGA 55]

I am speaking from experience.

 

 

 

I have a friend who is going through this right now.

 

Fortunately for him, it was a physical fight and not a gunfight.

 

But it was with a certain ethnicity different from his.

 

And because of what he had posted on his Facebook page, his computer was searched and some stuff he had posted on internet forums was drug up.

 

Now they are trying to make it out to be a hate crime.

 

How many of you have your gun information on your Facebook pages?

 

Hell, it is common procedure now when investigating a suspect to check social networking sites, photo sites like Photobucket, and special interest i-net forums.

 

Man BIG difference here, what happened? What did he write? If he wrote on his site, which they normally use their real name (dumb), and he wrote I am going to kill Mr. XYZ, then yes he is in real big trouble.....

 

Facts not in evidence..........

[Bayoupiper 738]

Wow.

 

I guess I really don't know a thing do I?

 

 

I never realized how many experienced experts there were on here.

 

 

 

 

So please, go on pumping each other.

[bountyhunter 19]

Unless you have been there and done it already there is no way to know what you or anyone else would do if faced with this situation. It is really easy to be "Mr. Badass" sitting behind a PC Monitor, but when faced with a barrel pointed in your face or the possibility of one in your face I'll put a pay check on 98% that claim to be Mr. Badass with quickly be "Chicken Little" really fast. Training and practice help, but all the training and practice in the world does not get you ready for the moment of truth. So from my point of view, these type of questions are not really realistic and the answers are more fanitasy than what would really happen.

 

Ok there are my 2 pennies.

[Kliegl 304]

I do know that, even with a subpoena, it is not legal for the owner of this site, or the ISP to give up the IP addresses

of the users. It will probably still happen, as most people cave under "orders" from governmental agencies, but

it is not legal, nevertheless.

[308SAIGA 55]

Wow.

 

I guess I really don't know a thing do I?

 

I never realized how many experienced experts there were on here.

 

So please, go on pumping each other.

 

You still have not answered my questions, hard to determine anything from "I have a friend and he got in trouble"... I am sure others, as would I, like to know what this person said/did?

 

I guarantee you it was nothing about what we are discussing here...

[308SAIGA 55]

I do know that, even with a subpoena, it is not legal for the owner of this site, or the ISP to give up the IP addresses

of the users. It will probably still happen, as most people cave under "orders" from governmental agencies, but

it is not legal, nevertheless.

 

What? It is the ONLY way to obtain this information, and failure to supply a COURT ORDERED request will result in the persons arrest.....

 

LOL

 

Added:

 

I see where you are getting this, you are watching too much TV what is it Law & Order? When they threaten a person to give it up or else....

 

Read this: This is Federal Law which applies to all States:

 

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/41/872

 

Whoever, being an officer, or employee of the United States or

any department or agency thereof, or representing himself to be or

assuming to act as such, under color or pretense of office or

employment commits or attempts an act of extortion, shall be fined

under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both;

but if the amount so extorted or demanded does not exceed $1,000,

he shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one

year, or both.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Gunlover_2008

[Kliegl 304]

LOL yourself, bud.

 

It's called privacy. Many people don't understand that, in the digital age, your right

to it is trampled often.

 

Let's make a comparison. Say a serial killer was using a cell phone and they knew the signal

came from a cell tower. The authorities don't have the right to tap the cell tower and listen

in on everyone's conversations just in hopes to catch the guy they want. They need a warrant

for a specific number.

 

Back to the internet, the police COULD say, give us SaigaUser_X's IP, we see he is saying scary

things about the President. However, they cannot legally say, give us the entire userlist IP addresses

since all of us have not do anything wrong, and our privacy cannot legally be abused like that,

but it probably will anyway.

 

I hope I cleared that up for you, privacy in the digital age is as essential as freedom.

 

Edit: I don't watch television except on rare occasions. Please attempt to understand

my points before you ridicule them. In fact, how about you just try to have a discussion WITHOUT

ridicule?

Edited July 31, 2010 by Kliegl

[David Mark 2,452]

So from my point of view, these type of questions are not really realistic and the answers are more fanitasy than what would really happen.

 

I agree with you to a point. No one really can say exactly what they would do under these circumstances.

But I believe being armed with as much knowledge as possible is every bit as important as being armed with my Glock 27.

 

We have some very intelligent and experienced members and there opinions matter to me.

[308SAIGA 55]

LOL yourself, bud.

 

It's called privacy. Many people don't understand that, in the digital age, your right

to it is trampled often.

 

Let's make a comparison. Say a serial killer was using a cell phone and they knew the signal

came from a cell tower. The authorities don't have the right to tap the cell tower and listen

in on everyone's conversations just in hopes to catch the guy they want. They need a warrant

for a specific number.

 

Back to the internet, the police COULD say, give us SaigaUser_X's IP, we see he is saying scary

things about the President. However, they cannot legally say, give us the entire userlist IP addresses

since all of us have not do anything wrong, and our privacy cannot legally be abused like that,

but it probably will anyway.

 

I hope I cleared that up for you, privacy in the digital age is as essential as freedom.

 

Edit: I don't watch television except on rare occasions. Please attempt to understand

my points before you ridicule them. In fact, how about you just try to have a discussion WITHOUT

ridicule?

 

This is exactly what I said in another one of my posts, I never said get everyone's address. If law enforcement feels that you are a threat, by stating you are going to commit a crime i.e. murder, robbery or any other felonious act then, they can obtain the information via a subpoena and get the information needed to apprehend you or take you in for questioning, now they have your PC right? You have links saved under your browser right where you post? Also have you read the Patriot Act that good old boy Bush put in place?

[Bayoupiper 738]

 

 

You still have not answered my questions, hard to determine anything from "I have a friend and he got in trouble"... I am sure others, as would I, like to know what this person said/did?

 

I guarantee you it was nothing about what we are discussing here...

 

 

 

He made what could be considered racists comments.

But you would have to be a really whacked out lib to think so.

And guess what!

The DA thinks so!

 

But what you do not seem to want to understand, especially given THIS current political clime, that saying exactly what you would do if such-and-such situation happened, can get YOU charged if it should occur.

 

All I was doing was cautioning some of you.

 

But please, you obviously know more about law enforcement and cyber-law than I do, so go on enlightening us.

[Bayoupiper 738]

LOL yourself, bud.

 

It's called privacy. Many people don't understand that, in the digital age, your right

to it is trampled often.

 

Let's make a comparison. Say a serial killer was using a cell phone and they knew the signal

came from a cell tower. The authorities don't have the right to tap the cell tower and listen

in on everyone's conversations just in hopes to catch the guy they want. They need a warrant

for a specific number.

 

Back to the internet, the police COULD say, give us SaigaUser_X's IP, we see he is saying scary

things about the President. However, they cannot legally say, give us the entire userlist IP addresses

since all of us have not do anything wrong, and our privacy cannot legally be abused like that,

but it probably will anyway.

 

I hope I cleared that up for you, privacy in the digital age is as essential as freedom.

 

Edit: I don't watch television except on rare occasions. Please attempt to understand

my points before you ridicule them. In fact, how about you just try to have a discussion WITHOUT

ridicule?

 

 

It started with The Patriot Act.

 

What is to stop a really liberal, or even, socialist administration from getting those powers expanded?

[bountyhunter 19]

So from my point of view, these type of questions are not really realistic and the answers are more fanitasy than what would really happen.

 

I agree with you to a point. No one really can say exactly what they would do under these circumstances.

But I believe being armed with as much knowledge as possible is every bit as important as being armed with my Glock 27.

 

We have some very intelligent and experienced members and there opinions matter to me.

 

I'm not saying not to get is much training, practice and information as you can and be as ready as you can possibly be for any situation. All I was getting at is these questions on the good ole internet make it very easy for anyone to be big and brave. It will likely be very different for them when it actually happens. Believe me I know.......

[308SAIGA 55]

 

He made what could be considered racists comments.

But you would have to be a really whacked out lib to think so.

And guess what!

The DA thinks so!

 

But what you do not seem to want to understand, especially given THIS current political clime, that saying exactly what you would do if such-and-such situation happened, can get YOU charged if it should occur.

 

All I was doing was cautioning some of you.

 

But please, you obviously know more about law enforcement and cyber-law than I do, so go on enlightening us.

 

This has to be the most stupidest thing I have heard in my life!!!! LOL PM me your buddies name, and city, county and State he lives in... This would be public record that I can look up... If this is true then the DA has nothing better to do....

 

Sorry dude very hard to believe, if this where true, there would be no skin heads in this country, they would not be allowed to public protests... Too funny.....

 

 

You guys crack me up...

 

Added:

 

http://www.kukluxklan.bz/

 

http://kkkk.net/Page1.html

 

 

http://www.kkk.com/

 

Shall I go on???? LOL

Edited July 31, 2010 by Gunlover_2008

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

LOL yourself, bud.

 

It's called privacy. Many people don't understand that, in the digital age, your right

to it is trampled often.

 

Let's make a comparison. Say a serial killer was using a cell phone and they knew the signal

came from a cell tower. The authorities don't have the right to tap the cell tower and listen

in on everyone's conversations just in hopes to catch the guy they want. They need a warrant

for a specific number.

 

Back to the internet, the police COULD say, give us SaigaUser_X's IP, we see he is saying scary

things about the President. However, they cannot legally say, give us the entire userlist IP addresses

since all of us have not do anything wrong, and our privacy cannot legally be abused like that,

but it probably will anyway.

 

I hope I cleared that up for you, privacy in the digital age is as essential as freedom.

 

Edit: I don't watch television except on rare occasions. Please attempt to understand

my points before you ridicule them. In fact, how about you just try to have a discussion WITHOUT

ridicule?

 

 

It started with The Patriot Act.

 

What is to stop a really liberal, or even, socialist administration from getting those powers expanded?

 

Exactly. People act like this shit is new or something. It's been going on for 8-9 years now.

[308SAIGA 55]

 

It started with The Patriot Act.

 

What is to stop a really liberal, or even, socialist administration from getting those powers expanded?

 

Not to change the subject but what really pisses me off about the Patriot Act, is the fact that the Federal Gov was supposed to lock down the borders and not allow illegals to enter, yet they do nothing. So when AZ took it upon themselves to do something they get reamed by the very same entity that put the law into effect.

Then the Gov brings over Iraq's, to teach them to fight and they flee the Texas base: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/epic-epic-fail-no-fewer-than-46-members-of-afghan-military-have-gone-missing-from-texas-base.html and are roaming the streets of the USA...

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

blahh tangent nevermind

Edited July 31, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[Kliegl 304]

LOL yourself, bud.

 

It's called privacy. Many people don't understand that, in the digital age, your right

to it is trampled often.

 

Let's make a comparison. Say a serial killer was using a cell phone and they knew the signal

came from a cell tower. The authorities don't have the right to tap the cell tower and listen

in on everyone's conversations just in hopes to catch the guy they want. They need a warrant

for a specific number.

 

Back to the internet, the police COULD say, give us SaigaUser_X's IP, we see he is saying scary

things about the President. However, they cannot legally say, give us the entire userlist IP addresses

since all of us have not do anything wrong, and our privacy cannot legally be abused like that,

but it probably will anyway.

 

I hope I cleared that up for you, privacy in the digital age is as essential as freedom.

 

Edit: I don't watch television except on rare occasions. Please attempt to understand

my points before you ridicule them. In fact, how about you just try to have a discussion WITHOUT

ridicule?

 

 

It started with The Patriot Act.

 

What is to stop a really liberal, or even, socialist administration from getting those powers expanded?

 

Exactly. People act like this shit is new or something. It's been going on for 8-9 years now.

 

Hold on. Never said it was new; simply illegal. Many aspects of the Patriot Act are unconstitutional,

thus, in and of itself, anything it grants is still illegal.

[DrGonZo 157]

So how about that hypothetical CCW situation? Why don't you girls bring this over to the fight club.....

[Paulyski 2,227]

So how about that hypothetical CCW situation? Why don't you girls bring this over to the fight club.....

No need.

 

I'm just arguing reality with an idealist.

 

What are your thoughts on the hypothetical situation?